The Flag of St George

[Head Honcho]

We have collaborated with the Evil Empire, and undertaken in an unjust and immoral war.

I'll still support England at the World Cup, but the fact that we have got involved in Iraq should be an embarassment to every humane and intelligent British person.

Yeh I know what you mean! I'm still ashamed of my part in the tartan invasion of Wembley in 77

[Lemon Harpic]

Yeh I know what you mean! I'm still ashamed of my part in the tartan invasion of Wembley in 77

How many children did you kill?

[Ultra]

I wonder who has killed more innocent children and women, the Iraqi insurgents or the british troops. I would say the insurgents, directly and indirectly!!!

Wrong, look at how many died in allied air raids and in attacks on towns like Fallluja.

The insurgents didn't just emerge from thin air, they exist because of the deep injustice being carried out by the west towards the Arab world and Iraq and Palestine in particular.

So much damage has been done to the infrastructure in Iraq that most people are actually WORSE off than they were when Saddam is in charge.

And with still no agreement on a government, a full FIVE MONTHS after elections took place, it's not clear how things are going to improve.

[placidcasual]

"Our lads" are there for the good of the shareholders of ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, BP, Chevron and the like, not for the Iraqi people. The heroism and courage of the Iraqi people in standing up to the Allied soldiers is truly inspiring, and I hope, as all decent and moral people do, that the people of Iraq can send more of the pondscum like Private Adam Peter Morris to their graves.

You really are a bit of a twat aren't you?

Whether you agree or disagree with the invasion/war/occupation whatever it is this week, wishing death on someone is despicable.

What are you doing about the situation? Or are you just a little internet warrior making comments from behind the safety of a keyboard?

[Dr The Singh]

Wrong, look at how many died in allied air raids and in attacks on towns like Fallluja.

The insurgents didn't just emerge from thin air, they exist because of the deep injustice being carried out by the west towards the Arab world and Iraq and Palestine in particular.

So much damage has been done to the infrastructure in Iraq that most people are actually WORSE off than they were when Saddam is in charge.

And with still no agreement on a government, a full FIVE MONTHS after elections took place, it's not clear how things are going to improve.

I'm taking pacifically about British Troops, majority of the bombing was done by the US. The constant destruction by insurgents of the infrastructure of Iraq will indirectly lead to many more deaths then any bombing. Thousands of people are malnurished, disease is widespread, people have no food.

My points are only in support of the troops and support of us english, not the government etc! English people and troops only wish to do good, i'm afraid the government etc have made decisions which we would agree have been immoral.

Fact of life is Great Britain is a PLC, and it has made the decision to back US on financial grounds, whether moral or immoral, it's business, and as we know morals have nothing to do with business only money and we call ourselves civilised!!!

On Iraq and Insurgents, when Saddam was overthrown, people were partying, they thought the Yanks would set free the people and improve matters.

Yanks, were so arrogant that they let the Baath party and it's soldiers flee into the outskirts and re-group, instead of bringing these people into the fold to help Iraqi people. These former troops with little they had were ineffective BUT with the help or foriegn money\weapons (Al-Queda, Iran and money from other Islamic sources) and help of Insurgents became effective and eventually the Foriegn Insurgents have now taken over the show. The baath party seperates would not kill women or children only soldiers the foriegn radical insurgents kill anyone!!

The Iraqi people want to govern themselves and want peace but the Insurgents will not allow this to happen, clear evidence of this was the elections, foriegn insurgents threatened to kill and bomb those that attend but the former baath party soldiers (those against the US) revolted and decided to vote and actually posted troops outside polling booths to stop these radical insurgents, hence there was little or no violence against the voters and voting went on peacefully. These insurgents are not the same people that are freedom fighters for palestine or freedom fighters for Iraq, these people are radicals that want to Islamise the world, once Iraq is Islamised, they will move to another country, then to another until all the world is Islamic, they do not care who they kill, women, children, aslong as there Jihad is achieved

Iraq is a mess, the US has to take bulk of the blame, there arrogance and stupidity has caused this, now the US and it's Allies are stuck and are weak, the world knows this and other countries have taken advantage, North Korea and Iran. Iraq is a fragile place, do the Allies leave and let Iraq become a strict Islamic state after years of civil war, or, theymade this bed and now the allies have to sleep in it???

Yes, I agree, the west has caused alot of misery to the palestinians, the money making regimes of the west (US, UK, etc) and those of the rest of the world (China, Russia, India) will do anything for profit, the price of life is of no consequence, attrocities all around the world are happening, nobody cares!!!

[Thracian]

Compared to the atrocities done by other countries ie USA, Iraq, Turkey, Germany, India, in the last few years, barring the atrocities by the british empire, we should be proud!!! The soldiers that cause attrocities are in the minority, most of our lads are there for the good and get treated like shite by those they are trying to good for!!!! What happens with our soldiers in Iraq does not represent the English, in war many things can and do happen, that's the nature of war!!!

Just to add most English are against the war, it's the governments mistake, lets not tarnish our good people with the same stick as the government!!!

I'm glad you said that.

All Wars are a despicable condemnation of mankind's selfishness and inability to use their minds instead of their emotions to solve problems. And all take a ghastly toll.

The War in Iraq, no more than any other War, will solve nothing but will leave great swathes of festering resentment and bitterness. Wars always do and the negative consequences will continue for years, perhaps for centuries as they have with other Wars.

What makes this one so unwise and barely defensible is that rules were drawn up which were aimed at making dialogue rather than conflict solve such difficulties.

The allies ignored both the letter and the spirit of those rules to go their own way and to follow their own agenda on the back of an entirely unproven assumption.

Now we have a mess which could easily precipitate into more widespread conflict in years to come.

Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if it is not all part of an economic conspiracy aimed at wrecking the economies of the West eventually (Al Queda has referred to such a tactic in the past) and we have been suckered.

The huge cost is obscene and ongoing. And what next?

For a start the developing economies of China and Russia continue to flourish and their leaders can look on as their potential rivals get economically and idealistically bogged down on a battlefield where they don't belong.

While our manufacturing industries fall apart to be re-established by others in the Far East (at huge cost in lost livelihoods, lost self esteem, lost skills and, most importantly, lost independence) endless money is being wasted on War which should be spent saving/redirecting industry and in developing new techologies and new sources of energy which would prevent us having to rely on others as is increasingly the case today.

We have more than enough to do here without wasting precious resources fighting fruitless wars where we don't belong.

[Dr The Singh]

I'm glad you said that.

All Wars are a despicable condemnation of mankind's selfishness and inability to use their minds instead of their emotions to solve problems. And all take a ghastly toll.

The War in Iraq, no more than any other War, will solve nothing but will leave great swathes of festering resentment and bitterness. Wars always do and the negative consequences will continue for years, perhaps for centuries as they have with other Wars.

What makes this one so unwise and barely defensible is that rules were drawn up which were aimed at making dialogue rather than conflict solve such difficulties.

The allies ignored both the letter and the spirit of those rules to go their own way and to follow their own agenda on the back of an entirely unproven assumption.

Now we have a mess which could easily precipitate into more widespread conflict in years to come.

Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if it is not all part of an economic conspiracy aimed at wrecking the economies of the West eventually (Al Queda has referred to such a tactic in the past) and we have been suckered.

The huge cost is obscene and ongoing. And what next?

For a start the developing economies of China and Russia continue to flourish and their leaders can look on as their potential rivals get economically and idealistically bogged down on a battlefield where they don't belong.

While our manufacturing industries fall apart to be re-established by others in the Far East (at huge cost in lost livelihoods, lost self esteem, lost skills and, most importantly, lost independence) endless money is being wasted on War which should be spent saving/redirecting industry and in developing new techologies and new sources of energy which would prevent us having to rely on others as is increasingly the case today.

We have more than enough to do here without wasting precious resources fighting fruitless wars where we don't belong.

I have always said, I wish a british government would sort it's own backyard first then go and sort someone else's. We are supposed to be the 4th richest country in the world, yet we have hospitals, schools and public services that a 3rd world country would be ashamed of. British society is falling apart, the youth are i'll prepared for the future and the sense of british community and family values are dead!!!

We are know a nation reliant on foriegn imports, the 3rd world is catching up and when it does what will Britain have to offer the world????

It looks like World War 3 is comming, it will be the West against Islam, and it could have been avoided if US foriegn policy wasn't so aggressive towards Islamic nations. The radical elemant if Islam is becomming more and more apparent in the world, nations that were moderate are beginning to fight uprises of radical islam ie Turkey, Indonesia. I hope whoever comes in power in the US next will remove it's troop from Iraq, and change it's foriegn policies, otherwise it has an will accelerate WW III.

[leicester1884]

" I hope, as all decent and moral people do, that the people of Iraq can send more of the pondscum like Private Adam Peter Morris to their graves.

You really feel all decent and moral people feel that way?

I think you would find that most decent and moral people hope that British Soldiers can send more of the Iraqi scum responsible for these attacks to an early grave.

[Lemon Harpic]

You really feel all decent and moral people feel that way?

I think you would find that most decent and moral people hope that British Soldiers can send more of the Iraqi scum responsible for these attacks to an early grave.

The British soldiers should not be in Iraq. All decent and moral people salute the courage of the Iraqi people in standing up to the Allied forces despite overwhelming odds. The people of Iraq don't have the money or the technology of the Allies, but still they refuse to be cowed and bullied by their so-called 'liberators'.

All decent and moral people stand shoulder to shoulder with anybody who kills a British or especially an American soldier. They (the soldiers) have become the tools of oppression, and have lost the right to be considered human. British and American soldiers are the enemy not just of the Iraqi people but of all of humanity.

[Dr The Singh]

The British soldiers should not be in Iraq. All decent and moral people salute the courage of the Iraqi people in standing up to the Allied forces despite overwhelming odds. The people of Iraq don't have the money or the technology of the Allies, but still they refuse to be cowed and bullied by their so-called 'liberators'.

All decent and moral people stand shoulder to shoulder with anybody who kills a British or especially an American soldier. They (the soldiers) have become the tools of oppression, and have lost the right to be considered human. British and American soldiers are the enemy not just of the Iraqi people but of all of humanity.

Lemon Harpic, it's not the Iraqi people that are doing the fighting, please read my posts:

Yes, your right, the purpose our government has sent our soldiers there is unjust, but the soldiers themselves want to help the people of Iraq and there motives are not.

The everyday Iraqi at this moment is living in very poor conditions and are continueing there lives as best as possible and have no desire to engage the soldiers, they just want to live. Those that have decided to take up arms with the insurgents\fundamentalist are only doing more damage and not helping the Iraqi people at all, instead of killing, why not rebuild hospitals, get fresh water and aid to those that require it.

You called these people heroes, i call them cowards, to shoot or kill a man in deciet, in his back or without being man enought to engage your enemy, is tactic of cowards, they are not standing up, they are hiding in bushes and behind there women and children, I spit on these people you call heroes. I wonder who has killed more innocent children and women, the Iraqi insurgents or the british troops. I would say the insurgents, directly and indirectly!!!

The army needs to ensure that people like Peter Morris are not allowed to do such attrocities just like the Iraqi people must ensure that there suicide bombers do no longer exist and that fundamentalism that leads to killing ends!!!!

ANOTHER POST

I'm taking pacifically about British Troops, majority of the bombing was done by the US. The constant destruction by insurgents of the infrastructure of Iraq will indirectly lead to many more deaths then any bombing. Thousands of people are malnurished, disease is widespread, people have no food.

My points are only in support of the troops and support of us english, not the government etc! English people and troops only wish to do good, i'm afraid the government etc have made decisions which we would agree have been immoral.

Fact of life is Great Britain is a PLC, and it has made the decision to back US on financial grounds, whether moral or immoral, it's business, and as we know morals have nothing to do with business only money and we call ourselves civilised!!!

On Iraq and Insurgents, when Saddam was overthrown, people were partying, they thought the Yanks would set free the people and improve matters.

Yanks, were so arrogant that they let the Baath party and it's soldiers flee into the outskirts and re-group, instead of bringing these people into the fold to help Iraqi people. These former troops with little they had were ineffective BUT with the help or foriegn money\weapons (Al-Queda, Iran and money from other Islamic sources) and help of Insurgents became effective and eventually the Foriegn Insurgents have now taken over the show. The baath party seperates would not kill women or children only soldiers the foriegn radical insurgents kill anyone!!

The Iraqi people want to govern themselves and want peace but the Insurgents will not allow this to happen, clear evidence of this was the elections, foriegn insurgents threatened to kill and bomb those that attend but the former baath party soldiers (those against the US) revolted and decided to vote and actually posted troops outside polling booths to stop these radical insurgents, hence there was little or no violence against the voters and voting went on peacefully. These insurgents are not the same people that are freedom fighters for palestine or freedom fighters for Iraq, these people are radicals that want to Islamise the world, once Iraq is Islamised, they will move to another country, then to another until all the world is Islamic, they do not care who they kill, women, children, aslong as there Jihad is achieved

Iraq is a mess, the US has to take bulk of the blame, there arrogance and stupidity has caused this, now the US and it's Allies are stuck and are weak, the world knows this and other countries have taken advantage, North Korea and Iran. Iraq is a fragile place, do the Allies leave and let Iraq become a strict Islamic state after years of civil war, or, theymade this bed and now the allies have to sleep in it???

Yes, I agree, the west has caused alot of misery to the palestinians, the money making regimes of the west (US, UK, etc) and those of the rest of the world (China, Russia, India) will do anything for profit, the price of life is of no consequence, attrocities all around the world are happening, nobody cares!!!

[Lemon Harpic]

The British soldiers are not in Iraq to hand out lollipops to children and help old ladies cross the road. They are part of a military whose purpose is to uphold the power and privilege of a small corporate elite, and they uphold this power and privilege through the murder of ordinary people.

Almost all of the soldiers in Iraq are there not because they want to help the people of Iraq, but because have been trained to blindly obey orders and then flown into Iraq. They kill civilians without hesitation for the same reason. The orders they are being given are immoral, and by choosing to sign up to the military our soldiers are efffectively renouncing their right to be considered human.

If I were an Iraqi, it might seem a sisyphusian task trying to rebuild hospitals. Even if it were possible to rebuild a hospital using only sand, the Americans would only come and drop more bombs on it when it's finished. The only way the ordinary Iraqi has a chance to rebuild their country is to send the Allied troops home in body bags.

[Head Honcho]

The British soldiers are not in Iraq to hand out lollipops to children and help old ladies cross the road. They are part of a military whose purpose is to uphold the power and privilege of a small corporate elite, and they uphold this power and privilege through the murder of ordinary people.

Almost all of the soldiers in Iraq are there not because they want to help the people of Iraq, but because have been trained to blindly obey orders and then flown into Iraq. They kill civilians without hesitation for the same reason. The orders they are being given are immoral, and by choosing to sign up to the military our soldiers are efffectively renouncing their right to be considered human.

If I were an Iraqi, it might seem a sisyphusian task trying to rebuild hospitals. Even if it were possible to rebuild a hospital using only sand, the Americans would only come and drop more bombs on it when it's finished. The only way the ordinary Iraqi has a chance to rebuild their country is to send the Allied troops home in body bags.

Fancy meeting up with a few of my old Black Watch buddies? Just to discuss your views like

[Lemon Harpic]

Fancy meeting up with a few of my old Black Watch buddies? Just to discuss your views like

Might makes right, eh?

[Ultra]

The British soldiers are not in Iraq to hand out lollipops to children and help old ladies cross the road. They are part of a military whose purpose is to uphold the power and privilege of a small corporate elite, and they uphold this power and privilege through the murder of ordinary people.

Almost all of the soldiers in Iraq are there not because they want to help the people of Iraq, but because have been trained to blindly obey orders and then flown into Iraq. They kill civilians without hesitation for the same reason.

Exactly.

This is how Britain created the Empire.

It's also how the squaddies operated in Northern Ireland for many years.

[davieG]

Moved to General Chat as it's got FA to do with the World Cup.

[Babylon]

Lemon Harpic... You find the death of our soldiers inspiring??? You're nothing but scum. Nobody should find anyones death inspiring!!

Ashamed to be english... I don't think so. I'm ashamed you are though.

[Chairman of the Bored]

Whoa! From English Wolrd Cup flags to global politics. I just hope Beckham et al can be as creative in the World Cup. Very interesting debate, though (apart from the name calling). I shall withold a view on USA / UK / Iraq issue, other than to say I won't be flying a flag but I will be supporting England and pretty much every other team because football needs to be the winner in Germany not narrow minded nationalism.

[Thracian]

The British soldiers are not in Iraq to hand out lollipops to children and help old ladies cross the road. They are part of a military whose purpose is to uphold the power and privilege of a small corporate elite, and they uphold this power and privilege through the murder of ordinary people.

Almost all of the soldiers in Iraq are there not because they want to help the people of Iraq, but because have been trained to blindly obey orders and then flown into Iraq. They kill civilians without hesitation for the same reason. The orders they are being given are immoral, and by choosing to sign up to the military our soldiers are efffectively renouncing their right to be considered human.

If I were an Iraqi, it might seem a sisyphusian task trying to rebuild hospitals. Even if it were possible to rebuild a hospital using only sand, the Americans would only come and drop more bombs on it when it's finished. The only way the ordinary Iraqi has a chance to rebuild their country is to send the Allied troops home in body bags.

It is a pity you don't spend some time with the military in Iraq to see what the soldiers really believe and are really like because I never met a British solider who was the least inclined to kill civilians unless it was impossible to do otherwise.

War does kill innocent civilians - though not all civilians are innocent - but deaths in Iraq from what I hear and read are mostly caused by the longer range weapons of aircraft and wheeled vehicles which are more indiscrimate than close range guns.

Many civilians have lost their lives because opportunist and idealistic insurgents have planted themselves among the general populace and inevitably put them in the firing line.

As for the soldiers blindly following orders and renouncing their right to be considered human is there any difference between them and millions of people blindly following the doctrine and leadership of religious zealots (we had the Inquisition which murdered and toirtured) - and some young people even blowing themselves to oblivion in following that leadership?

If you think so, your mind sounds as aggled and indoctrinated as the soldiers you condemn. There is no more humanity in your last sentence than in the bullets of the soldiers you so clearly despise.

What's needed in Iraq is not more body bags (the inhumanity of that comment is just as disgusting as the killing of innocents) but what should have been used to solve the problems in the first place - dialogue. That is what will end the matter one day - so it might as well be used now.

How Blair ever considered he could solve the problems of such a complicated part of the world when he has so many unsolved problems at home, only he knows and as for his spiritual hypocrisy there is Christian and Moslem at each others throat and both are disgracing all they supposedly believe in.

[Gamesmaster]

Retailers are clearly making a killing. There is an outbreak of flags everywhere. I can't help thinking there's a welling up of nationalism. Do folks think it is purely World Cup related or should we deduce other factors at play? Where I live, Wycombe Road has had pretty much all of the lamposts adorned with flags.

I'd be interested to hear everyone's views?

made me laugh when tony banks before the last world cup, asked phony blair in parliament if he would celebrate a foreign success if England won, strange cos mr banks doesnt like nationalism

get those flags out, show the foreigners whos in charge here

[Head Honcho]

made me laugh when tony banks before the last world cup, asked phony blair in parliament if he would celebrate a foreign success if England won, strange cos mr banks doesnt like nationalism

get those flags out, show the foreigners whos in charge here

Make that didn't !

[Parsons]

who wants to suck my nipples!

[Tomassi]

WHAT THE F U C K has this got to do with england flags

TARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im flying two flags this year as always...

england and ITALY

[coale39]

Who ya gonna support if they face each other??

[Tomassi]

Who ya gonna support if they face each other??

Obviously England, I was born and raised in England with English traditions, and also VERY proud to be ENGLISH, in which some people are afraid of...

The italy thing is in respect to my Dad who is Italian and his side of the family!!

Should they face each other i would cry for england and if england lost i would cry even more!

[Chimp]

The British soldiers are not in Iraq to hand out lollipops to children and help old ladies cross the road. They are part of a military whose purpose is to uphold the power and privilege of a small corporate elite, and they uphold this power and privilege through the murder of ordinary people.

Almost all of the soldiers in Iraq are there not because they want to help the people of Iraq, but because have been trained to blindly obey orders and then flown into Iraq. They kill civilians without hesitation for the same reason. The orders they are being given are immoral, and by choosing to sign up to the military our soldiers are efffectively renouncing their right to be considered human.

If I were an Iraqi, it might seem a sisyphusian task trying to rebuild hospitals. Even if it were possible to rebuild a hospital using only sand, the Americans would only come and drop more bombs on it when it's finished. The only way the ordinary Iraqi has a chance to rebuild their country is to send the Allied troops home in body bags.

Obviously you'd like to think yourself a radical, a free thinker.

Seems to me you're just another brain washed puppet, spouting the doctrine and hate of whatever manipulative ideology is currently controlling your thoughts.

Let me ask you this... do you live in Iraq? Do you know first hand what has been going on there from day to day? If the answer is 'no' then you, like the rest of us, must rely on the media or politically motivated organisations to gain information about what is happening in Iraq. Either way, none of us are getting to hear the real truth of events.

What is going on in Iraq can't be seperated into anything so black and white as you'd like people to think, there are many, many shades of grey in between. So please, don't sit there and say others should 'grow up' or get a more 'mature' attitude toward politics because it's plain as day that you're just as indoctrinated and clueless as the idiots that actually believe the war had anything to do with human rights.