Lemon Harpic Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 we have a passport and other means of indentification already. Tell us, what possible benefit is there, for us to fund with our money an i.d card? Isn't it obvious? Osama: Ok, brainwashed fanatics, I've prepared all the details of the attack. I've already got you in touch with a guy who can furnish you with explosives. At exactly 11.11 am on the 11th of November you will go to your positions in the centre of London and detonate the devices. Then we will bring the infidel to it's knees by killing a few commuters and writing off a couple of tube carriages. All glory to Allah etc... Brainwashed Fanatic #1: Er, Osama, I've just heard that Britain has introduced ID cards. They'll cost £50 per person, and have your fingerprints and all your details stored on an electronic chip. Osama: Oh bugger. That's it - the attacks are off. Let's bomb Finland instead. If you object to ID cards, then you are just as bad as Mohammad Sidique Khan. If you point out that they will be so costly and ineffective that they make the Millenium Dome look like the sale of the century then you may as well go into the capital and blow yourself up right now.
stez Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 ICO. If you dont mind the government knowing your details, then by all means, tell us all here who you are, all your details. I.D cards will not stop terrorism the govenment already know my details. i pay tax, i claim tax credits back i pay national insurance. i have a driving licence etc etc
Head Honcho Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 ICO. If you dont mind the government knowing your details, then by all means, tell us all here who you are, all your details. I.D cards will not stop terrorism I have no doubt that they will that isn't my concern. You said that the ID card will be used to control us and that is blatantly not true explain how it is going to be used to control us! If the Government wanted to control you they would they don't need a ID card to do that for christ sake.
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 ICO. If you dont mind the government knowing your details, then by all means, tell us all here who you are, all your details. I.D cards will not stop terrorism of course by itself it won't stop terror , just as i've said locking the door to a bank won't stop bank robbery , it is part of a whole series of preventative steps that make us safer . the screening process at airports does not stop every terrorist getting through , does it ? what do you suggest that all airport security is abandoned because it is not 100% foolproof ?
Lemon Harpic Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 of course by itself it won't stop terror , just as i've said locking the door to a bank won't stop bank robbery , it is part of a whole series of preventative steps that make us safer . the screening process at airports does not stop every terrorist getting through , does it ? what do you suggest that all airport security is abandoned because it is not 100% foolproof ? ID cards will not make the tiniest dent in terrorism. They will not slow terrorism down one iota. So why should I put my hand in my pocket for them?
Gamesmaster Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 just 1 example is that fraud in the benefits system is happening now on a massive scale and an ID would help in the fight against it . true in itself it won't stop fraud as the criminal mind always finds another way . but using this argument to prevent crime is like saying " don't bother locking the door to the bank as criminals will find another way in " . it is a ridiculous argument , as the gov. etc need a whole raft of measures to fight crime and terrorism that is now the blight of our nation. now can someone give any credible reason why an ID card is such a burden to the law abiding , if as you admit we already carry similar documents , i have more faith in the experts in government who are attempting to lessen fraud / terror etc than hand wringing lefties who seek to hamstring anything suggested "experts"/political commentators ive heard, say theres still 3 million unemployed, the government have just put the rest on the sick list. Who's the fraudsters? If people are frauding on the sick, they'll just be more carefull, yes some will be caught cos there thick. How many people will have more than one i.d card? How many people will forget to carry there card, are they criminals? How many will be locked up for not carry it? HOW THE FVCK WOULD A PEICE OF PLASTIC STOP A NUTTER WITH BOMBS??????????? WHY should i go to work, work me but off and pay for a peice of plastic so the government which i didnt vote for can check me out whenever they please? If it does happen, this country will collapse within a year. Dont forget to mention all your personal details in your next reply
Steven Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 I have no doubt that they will that isn't my concern. You said that the ID card will be used to control us and that is blatantly not true explain how it is going to be used to control us! If the Government wanted to control you they would they don't need a ID card to do that for christ sake. That will place every ID Card holder under criminal-level surveillance. Used as the ICO said The creation of this detailed data trail of individuals’ activities is particularly worrying and cannot be viewed in isolation of other initiatives which serve to build a detailed picture of peoples lives such as CCTV surveillance (with automatic facial recognition), use of automatic number plate recognition recording vehicle movements for law enforcement and congestion charging and the recent proposals to introduce satellite tracking of vehicles for road use charging purposes. The Information Commissioner is concerned that each development puts in place another component in the infrastructure of a ‘surveillance society’. To avoid this it is important that each component limits to the minimum the recording of information about individuals, otherwise we risk unleashing unwarranted intrusion into individuals lives by government and other public bodies. then you will have no freedom.As non-criminal I do want to have that level of surveillance thank you. Moreover the Control aspect will be that unless you acquiese to having this level of unwarranted surveillance, your ID Card will not work and it will mean dificulty in accessing services that as a UK Citizen you should a right to. You can in effect be made a "non-person". <_< As we can agree these cards cannot solve terrorism or fraud in themselves what other use do they effectively serve except as a tool to control the behaviour of the UK population. <_<
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 ID cards will not make the tiniest dent in terrorism. They will not slow terrorism down one iota. So why should I put my hand in my pocket for them? i've heard all these negative arguments before whenever a government tries to do anything for OUR benefiit and safety its ranged from arguments saying that compulsory seatbelts/ crash helmets / tachographs etc etc won't make any difference , sorry i'm going to trust the experts in the field and at the frontline not some statisticians who could " prove " anything that they were told to prove , one safety measure by itself is probably useless , but as a whole they add up to more than the sum of their parts
Gamesmaster Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 I have no doubt that they will that isn't my concern. You said that the ID card will be used to control us and that is blatantly not true explain how it is going to be used to control us! If the Government wanted to control you they would they don't need a ID card to do that for christ sake. You will have to carry your card as proof of indentification. If you dont, you will be fined £2,500, if you dont pay, you will be sent to prison. Will the government be able to sell our information? Quite possibly.
Head Honcho Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 That will place every ID Card holder under criminal-level surveillance. Used as the ICO said then you will have no freedom. As non-criminal I do want to have that level of surveillance thank you. Moreover the Control aspect will be that unless you acquiese to having this level of unwarranted surveillance, your ID Card will not work and it will mean dificulty in accessing services that as a UK Citizen you should a right to. You can in effect be made a "non-person". <_< As we can agree these cards cannot solve terrorism or fraud in themselves what other use do they effectively serve except as a tool to control the behaviour of the UK population. <_< You said it yourself though Steven "as a non criminal" Well as a non criminal you wouldn't have to worry! Personally I'd go further and stick everyone's DNA profile on the card.
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 You said it yourself though Steven "as a non criminal" Well as a non criminal you wouldn't have to worry! Personally I'd go further and stick everyone's DNA profile on the card. agreed , its funny how some people are more concerned with the problems caused to the criminally minded or those so tight fisted that the thought of spending a few quid on an ID card is giving them nightmares
Gamesmaster Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 of course by itself it won't stop terror , just as i've said locking the door to a bank won't stop bank robbery , it is part of a whole series of preventative steps that make us safer . the screening process at airports does not stop every terrorist getting through , does it ? what do you suggest that all airport security is abandoned because it is not 100% foolproof ? Close the borders, sort out who's here, stop fighting illegal wars and get the troops on our streets, show the terrorists that we mean business. They will not last long then. Flying is a luxury, you dont have to take part. Of course you need security, thats if terrible people were planning to highjack planes, we dont have any proof yet. Fear is a tool which a government use to control the masses.
Lemon Harpic Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 one safety measure by itself is probably useless , but as a whole they add up to more than the sum of their parts How? How will they help fight terrorism? This is the one question that you, Allen etc have skillfully avoided answering. If you could tell us how ID cards would have even the slightest effect on terrorism, perhaps you could win round some of the doubters.
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 Close the borders, sort out who's here, stop fighting illegal wars and get the troops on our streets, show the terrorists that we mean business. They will not last long then. Flying is a luxury, you dont have to take part. Of course you need security, thats if terrible people were planning to highjack planes, we dont have any proof yet. Fear is a tool which a government use to control the masses. and conversely fear is the tool terrorists use to control the people and to get us to accept their wicked ideologies , let our democracies fight them with every tool and weapon that they see fit and not shackle them with petty grievances with regards to the cost or how ineffective we may think they are just think for a moment , the experts in the field of security may be right and the critics may be wrong , i think i know who i trust more if you think the intoduction of ID cards an imposition then your solutions sound far more draconian to me
Head Honcho Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 How? How will they help fight terrorism? This is the one question that you, Allen etc have skillfully avoided answering. If you could tell us how ID cards would have even the slightest effect on terrorism, perhaps you could win round some of the doubters. I think you'll find in post 28 that I answered the question!
Gamesmaster Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 As we can agree these cards cannot solve terrorism or fraud in themselves what other use do they effectively serve except as a tool to control the behaviour of the UK population. <_< Taxes from i.d cards aswell Steven...hellfire, when will the guallable population wake up? gg "sorry i'm going to trust the experts in the field and at the frontline not some statisticians who could " prove " anything that they were told to prove" Experts? Frontline? tell me, which part of the frontline government are in Basra, or baghdad, or afghanistan? Which ones will have there own people checking up on them with an i.d card? Frontline...you cant even see it.
l444ry Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 How? How will they help fight terrorism? This is the one question that you, Allen etc have skillfully avoided answering. If you could tell us how ID cards would have even the slightest effect on terrorism, perhaps you could win round some of the doubters. Absolutely bloody ridiculous to think ID cards will help one iota in the fight against terrorism. Worse still, in the event of a terrorist act all you'd have is a "home grown" terrorist with an ID card in his hand!!!
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 How? How will they help fight terrorism? This is the one question that you, Allen etc have skillfully avoided answering. If you could tell us how ID cards would have even the slightest effect on terrorism, perhaps you could win round some of the doubters. i don't always know the answers to questions like this , however sometimes i think its expedient to trust the democratically elected powers that have more insight into the nature of fraud and terrorism. they have of course made terrible mistakes and no doubt will do so again but on the whole i believe they have made many more great preventative judgements on our behalf . its all a case of trust ; on the one hand i have a democratically elected gornment and on the other a hotch potch of dissenters with various hidden agendas and reasons to object as far as i am concerned there is no contest and i will pay for an ID card and hope they are right , and if they are wrong then there is no harm done , however on the other hand if the hotch potch brigade get their way and are proved wrong then the consequences would be far worse.
Gamesmaster Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 and conversely fear is the tool terrorists use to control the people and to get us to accept their wicked ideologies , let our democracies fight them with every tool and weapon that they see fit and not shackle them with petty grievances with regards to the cost or how ineffective we may think they are I dont want to be funny, but are you sitting on a cloud? You seem to think, that because our government encouraged terrorists to live amognst us, that that gives them the right to control us...our democracies have wined and dined terrorists.
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 Absolutely bloody ridiculous to think ID cards will help one iota in the fight against terrorism. Worse still, in the event of a terrorist act all you'd have is a "home grown" terrorist with an ID card in his hand!!! ok so if i agree that the particular act to which you refer has not been prevented, then you take a moment to think of the consequences of tracing that persons connections in life and all the other clues left to help prevent any further atrocity by that terrorist associates as i said before it would only be a small part of the changes to our way of life that citizens will have to get used to in this new age of global terror , yes of course we could all bury our head in the sand and pretend it wasn't happening but it is, and its a difficult "war" but sacrifices must be made by the law abiding and not think that any gov will have a magic wand to rid us of this evil
Gamesmaster Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 its all a case of trust ; on the one hand i have a democratically elected gornment and on the other a hotch potch of dissenters with various hidden agendas and reasons to object as far as i am concerned there is no contest and i will pay for an ID card and hope they are right , and if they are wrong then there is no harm done , however on the other hand if the hotch potch brigade get their way and are proved wrong then the consequences would be far worse. How well do you trust the government? In the hope? You trust them, but only hope thre right **your not very sure, your not very sure** The harm will be in your pocket wallet. Just how much would you say is too much£ How would anti-i.d. card protestors be wrong?
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 I dont want to be funny, but are you sitting on a cloud? You seem to think, that because our government encouraged terrorists to live amognst us, that that gives them the right to control us...our democracies have wined and dined terrorists. firstly i did not say that out gov encouraged terrorists to live among us , and i don't know where you've pulled that particular rabbit from . if as you say our gov has done this, then it has not happened overnight has it and govs for many years previous must all have been in on this "long term plot" that you seem to be suggesting has taken place under our unsuspecting noses how come you have so much mistrust of our democratic gov and yet believe anyone who critises them
davieG Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 Just a simple question in amongst all the pros & cons, why do we need a passport, which I understand will have a similar chip and information in it and ID card, why don't we just use an ID card or is that too simple?
golden gordon Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 How well do you trust the government? In the hope? You trust them, but only hope thre right **your not very sure, your not very sure** The harm will be in your pocket wallet. Just how much would you say is too much£ How would anti-i.d. card protestors be wrong? of course i'm not 100% sure of the trust i am putting into them but if you think that i'm prepared to trust anyone 100% then you'd be mistaken how much trust do you put into your hotch potch band of dissenters .....100% ? hardly likely do you really believe that "they" hold the monopoly of the truth and are fighting against the "evil" that is tony blair ? ( and of course the countless other democratically elected mps who were all in the plot )
Head Honcho Posted 20 August 2006 Posted 20 August 2006 Just a simple question in amongst all the pros & cons, why do we need a passport, which I understand will have a similar chip and information in it and ID card, why don't we just use an ID card or is that too simple? I think it maybe has something to do with entry and visa stamps.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.