Was Jesus born on 9/11?

[Guest]

Exactly. You could say it is like an unwritten law and does benefit society in its own right. But still if you look over history and still today, religion has caused just as much evil as good.

It all depends on how religion is used. I posted earlier that religion has been used to suppress, and religious leaders had a considerable amount of power. Ignorance is a very powerful weapon, in that it is so easy to prey on people's ignorance. Back in the day when we didn't know what caused thunder and lightening, it could easily be passed off as an action by a deity. But we know now that it is caused by charged particles in the atmosphere, and isn't a god expressing his displeasure, so we are less frightened by any god. This is where religious leaders lose their power, as we are more educated. The loss of ruling power is the incentive behind religious zealots, in my opinion.

Why we can't just live and let live, I don't know. As long as you don't hurt anyone else, or cause any damage, then I couldn't care less if you believed in god, aliens or whatever.

[Edmund]

I wonder if God's other species on this earth have similar conversations amongst themselves, it seems a tad arrogant to think that if this God is responsible for all the species that exist that he singled out the human one to have special facilities arranged for when they died.

Never heard of doggy heaven

Actually why is there no doggy hell? What about those dogs who maul babies and beat up other dogs?

That wasn't religion that was people using religion like modern day world leaders and anti religious people, real religious people wouldn't do those things, well I'm sure that's the sort of response we can expect from El Empty

Are you El Empty in disguise?

in all honesty i think it has actually done more harm than good, for instance these so called "honour" killings, some terrorism, wars, persecutions of others (E.g. Northern Ireland), oppresion of opinions (more middle of last millenium than now but still), murder, insest the list goes on.

addmittedly it has brought some peace across the globe and it does help people find inspiration to do their best at whatever they are doing but i don't think this by any means covers the actions i've already mentioned.

Thats only touching the surface, there have ben millions killed in the name of religion but I mostly agree with what you are saying.

It all depends on how religion is used. I posted earlier that religion has been used to suppress, and religious leaders had a considerable amount of power. Ignorance is a very powerful weapon, in that it is so easy to prey on people's ignorance. Back in the day when we didn't know what caused thunder and lightening, it could easily be passed off as an action by a deity. But we know now that it is caused by charged particles in the atmosphere, and isn't a god expressing his displeasure, so we are less frightened by any god. This is where religious leaders lose their power, as we are more educated. The loss of ruling power is the incentive behind religious zealots, in my opinion.

Why we can't just live and let live, I don't know. As long as you don't hurt anyone else, or cause any damage, then I couldn't care less if you believed in god, aliens or whatever.

This is the point ive been trying to make but not so well worded as yours.

I have nothing against people and there views but when people start blindly rubbing it in your face then they are leaving themselves open for debate.

The funny thing is I was brought up in a very christian school and would go to the chapel for a short service during the week yet straight after you would be heading to a physics lesson which totally disproves what the priest has been saying in the service.

The annoying thing was if you missed a chapel service you would be slapped in the choir the next week so we were forced to go.

[l444ry]

The old chestnut myth that religion is the cause of "most" wars and "atrocities" seems to be rearing its head. Religion is not even close to being the leading cause suffering in the world. In fact, atheists have been responsible for most of it within the last 100 years.

The history of human warfare goes back to the beginning of recorded history (and, no doubt, well before that). A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.

If atheists are correct, the most religious industrial nation, the United States of America, should be involved in more religious wars than any other country. However, only the "War on Terror," among all 17 American wars, involves a religious component.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0816028516?tag=sa...amp;camp=211189

[Guest Bilo]

The old chestnut myth that religion is the cause of "most" wars and "atrocities" seems to be rearing its head. Religion is not even close to being the leading cause suffering in the world. In fact, atheists have been responsible for most of it within the last 100 years.

The history of human warfare goes back to the beginning of recorded history (and, no doubt, well before that). A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.

If atheists are correct, the most religious industrial nation, the United States of America, should be involved in more religious wars than any other country. However, only the "War on Terror," among all 17 American wars, involves a religious component.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0816028516?tag=sa...amp;camp=211189

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any army wanting to spread rational debate on the existence of God by the sword, or anybody strapping a bomb to themselves as a tribute to Darwinism.

[davieG]

The old chestnut myth that religion is the cause of "most" wars and "atrocities" seems to be rearing its head. Religion is not even close to being the leading cause suffering in the world. In fact, atheists have been responsible for most of it within the last 100 years.

The history of human warfare goes back to the beginning of recorded history (and, no doubt, well before that). A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.

If atheists are correct, the most religious industrial nation, the United States of America, should be involved in more religious wars than any other country. However, only the "War on Terror," among all 17 American wars, involves a religious component.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0816028516?tag=sa...amp;camp=211189

Just because there wasn't a specific religious context to a war doesn't mean it was an atheist one. Are you saying that those wars were started by atheists? I suspect most of the protagonists were deeply religious.

Even wars like the American Civil War could be deemed religious as it was a difference of opinion on slavery in the main with one God fearing side believing slavaery was abhorrent and the others believing those slaves were in effect sub -human. Granted it wasn't one religion against another.

[l444ry]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any army wanting to spread rational debate on the existence of God by the sword, or anybody strapping a bomb to themselves as a tribute to Darwinism.

.....Or the 4 million Cambodians massacred by the atheist Khmer Rouge. Not to mention fuedal Russia, Tito, North Korea etc. etc. It'd take a few more morons strapped with explosives to match that lot, don't you think?

[l444ry]

Just because there wasn't a specific religious context to a war doesn't mean it was an atheist one. Are you saying that those wars were started by atheists? I suspect most of the protagonists were deeply religious.

Even wars like the American Civil War could be deemed religious as it was a difference of opinion on slavery in the main with one God fearing side believing slavaery was abhorrent and the others believing those slaves were in effect sub -human. Granted it wasn't one religion against another.

Religionists have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, a cursory study of the facts shows that atheists have committed far more atrocities than all the religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders.

[davieG]

Religionists have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, a cursory study of the facts shows that atheists have committed far more atrocities than all the religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders.

I still don't get that, all these people after totalitarian power are you saying they were all atheists?

I'm not suggesting that there were more 'religious' wars I'm querying whether these 'non-religious' wars were waged by people that believed in a religion or that they were atheists. Just because a war wasn't about religion doesn't mean the protagonists were atheists which you seem to be implying.

[shen]

But if anyone believes that there isn't a powerful force somewhere in or outside of the universe that caused everything to come into place, that's their right. Or if people want to believe that the whole universe and all the living creatures just appeared from nowhere, and I believe otherwise, it doesn't mean that I think you're all crazy nutters.

Yes, that would be a frightening through wouldn't it? If there was no greater meaning with the existence of life, if there wasn't some form of intelligence that created life... If in fact, we were just a result of coincidences, mutations and unpredictable evolution. A product of chance!

It's funny how we humans have to make sense of it all

[davieG]

Yes, that would be a frightening through wouldn't it? If there was no greater meaning with the existence of life, if there wasn't some form of intelligence that created life... If in fact, we were just a result of coincidences, mutations and unpredictable evolution. A product of chance!

It's funny how we humans have to make sense of it all

You should here those moles they never stop talking about it, one day maybe they'll see the light

[Flynny]

Wars caused by atheists aren't in the name of atheism, there's a world of difference there being conveniently ignored.

[Guest]

Religionists have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, a cursory study of the facts shows that atheists have committed far more atrocities than all the religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders.

I think what I was trying to get across is that it is power hiding behind religion that has caused problems. If that makes sense. The further back through history you look, it's religious despots that have wielded the most aggression. That's not ignoring atrocities or wars committed by atheists, just recognition of a shift in the role religion has played through the ages.

I've been drinking, and this makes sense to me now. If it is incoherent, sorry!

[Guest Bilo]

.....Or the 4 million Cambodians massacred by the atheist Khmer Rouge. Not to mention fuedal Russia, Tito, North Korea etc. etc. It'd take a few more morons strapped with explosives to match that lot, don't you think?

As Flynny rightly points out, the fact that these regimes were atheist is incidental. Their crimes were not committed in the name of atheism but in the name of political ideologies such as Communism. Such ideologies, ironically given their antipathy to religion, became quasi-religious when we look at the fervour witth which their adherents carried out the bidding of their leaders. Stalin had people murdered in the name of loyalty to himself and the Soviet regime, not in the name of atheism.

Conversely, there are many examples of genocide and persecution being explicitly committed in the name of religion. The Holocaust is the most infamous, anti-Semitism was rife among Germans before the Nazis even came to power largely because of Christian schools teaching children that the Jews killed Christ. Hitler's own Catholic upbringing may well have contributed to his own personal hatred of Jews, ironic when many cite him as an example of 'atheists gone bad.' Hatred of the Jews was a timebomb waiting to go off and Hitler duly detonated it. The worst excesses of Israel are largely due to far-right Jewish settlers citing the Torah as giving them the right to settle in the West Bank, an action that stokes the fires of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The Crusades, which continue to cause resentment in the Arab and Muslim world nearly 1000 years after they ended had explictly religious motives. Closer to home, Catholics were second-class citizens in Ireland for hundreds of years, a part of history that continues to cause conflict today in Ulster.

[BoneDog]

I don't think religion is the cause of even the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That conflict is about land that was grabbed and continues to get grabbed by a non-religious regime. Just this week Israel has laid claim to about 35,000 acres of land on the edge of the dead sea. ( I know both sides commit atrocities so I'm not just blaming Jews! ). Before this land grab and massive immigration started there, the Muslims, Jews and Christians used to babysit each others kids, they were united.

The 1900's were the bloodiest century in recorded history and I can't think of one conflict that was 'religious'.

Yes, the odd US leader claims to be a Christian or whatever, but they only pretend to be cos it gets them alot of support accross America.

[BoneDog]

I'm not saying that things didn't happen, I'm suggesting that there are those who are happy to fit archaeological findings around what is written in the Bible.

The flood is mentioned in Greek stories as well, but it's given a different explanation. My personal belief is that religion was a way of explaining the unexplainable. Over time, religion also became a method of suppressing the mass populace. The power that the churches had in historical time suggest this to be the case, and it's dwindling status since science has been able to explain things further cements this for me.

I also don't doubt that characters like Jesus or Moses existed, but I don't believe the Bible to be the gospel truth (excusing the pun) just because it is written down. If you believe that it is, then you must believe everything that is written in the papers to be true, and the number of libel cases show that this is not the case. Most of the Old Testament was written long after the event, and it shows. Men living 700+ years? Flaming chariots? It's just a collection of stories to me, twisted to frighten people into conforming to a form of society for the benefit of a few powerful leaders. For someone big into conspiracy theories, especially ones involving governments, I am very surprised that you don't take this view when it comes to religion.

Same as me, I think that most of it has been added. In Numbers for example there are many contradictions of actual events they describe. So I defo don't think it's all true.

As for the men living to 700 years, I'm not sure that was never possible It is possible to live to around 200 now, the only reason we don't is because of poisons and pollutions everywhere around us. Most of our food is not natural and most of us drink un-natural things everyday. A long time ago a great majority of the world just drank water and ate pure food. They also had no pollution so they lived very clean lives. This would naturally lead to a longer life surely

Yes, I believe governments want control of us, but I don't see how religion would do that. Maybe some branches of Christianity could (the newer versions) but most religion I know about says stand up against corruption, so I think that it would just cause the leaders trouble if everyone was religious. I don't think it would help them control us.

[BoneDog]

it wasn't an ark it was a floating zoo. and bearing in mind that the human race is still discovering several new species a year i doubt a pre-historic man with a mental disorder causing him to hear the voice of "god" could find every animal, load them onto a boat sail around for 40 days and then land and hide all of the animals for the human race to discover again when the leprachauns saved all of the human race because they were unhappy at being left behind

Firstly he never heard the voice of 'God'. You believe too much propaganda. And secondly, did you read what I said about Noah and the flood or did you just skip to the post that agreed with you? Cos if you read it you would see that I said he never took a pair of each animal. That story has been changed alot.

[BoneDog]

however these can easily be forged or they could be ancient examples of wikipedia or football rumours. besides these people believed that the earth is the centre of the universe, that the dead could fly into up to heaven without the help of "the giant silver birds" and that the reason the sun moved across the sky was because god was spinning it on his finger like a basketball while rollerskating

(okay i made that last one up)

So what if ancient folk believed the earth was the centre of the universe. Doesn't mean they were stupid! They had no tools to explore these things. Too many folk use this arguement to try and say people in old times weren't as clever as us and they had simple minds! Well, they had just as good minds as us. There were thickos and clever bugars.

There are many ancient ruins in Egypt, Cambodia etc. to prove that the ancients were FAR from stupid. It's amazing how arrogant modern man is, many think that we are better in some way, when we are not. We are the same.

[BoneDog]

This post pretty much sums up my views on religion perfectly. The more science can explain, the less relevant religion becomes. I find it extraordinary that people believe that something that cannot be explained by 2000 or more years of scientific research, employing some of the greatest brains that this planet has ever seen, can somehow be explained by a book written by long-dead fishermen and carpenters (one that has also been modified countless times over the centuries.)

I admit there are some stupid Christians out there with mental problems etc.! But religious people I know do not think as you seem to believe. They don't think that they have any scientific answers to the universe. They only believe that each human being has a 'soul' that will live on after this life ends. And they believe that there is a powerful unseen being or 'energy' or whatever out there that everything is connected to somehow.

None of them believe in a man with a beard in the sky as most non religious folk seem to think!

[BoneDog]

And by Christians with mental probs I mean this kind of thing. Listen to these frickin lyrics "are you washed in the blood of the lamb" Absolutely fricking mental.

[Guest Bilo]

Don't know why y'all are wasting your time. I am God because Pete Doherty says I am.

[BoneDog]

Ah but the one's that El believes in are pure and have never been altered they are written by prophets that had a direct line to some almighty being.

The way I see it is if you want to believe in a sole creator of the universe that's fine it can't be proved or disproved but believe it because you think it's an option not because some people many moons ago wrote the idea down.

I know what you saying to me and it makes perfect sense. I gotta say though I don't believe in 'ones' plural. I think there is only one Creator, whatever that may be. But yes, I do believe in Jesus (not that he is God though like some do) and that he wrote stuff down, I just think that the majority his words have been lost.

I'm not trying to say I know anything cos I don't, I'm just sure that there is a power behind the universe and that we will all live on somewhere else after here. We have lived this once which everyone must agree is a miracle in itself. I can't understand why it's so hard to believe that we could possibly live on after we've had this go at life?

P.S I also understand how I must piss people off cos I do go on about this stuff alot

[shen]

Same as me, I think that most of it has been added. In Numbers for example there are many contradictions of actual events they describe. So I defo don't think it's all true.

As for the men living to 700 years, I'm not sure that was never possible It is possible to live to around 200 now, the only reason we don't is because of poisons and pollutions everywhere around us. Most of our food is not natural and most of us drink un-natural things everyday. A long time ago a great majority of the world just drank water and ate pure food. They also had no pollution so they lived very clean lives. This would naturally lead to a longer life surely

Yes, I believe governments want control of us, but I don't see how religion would do that. Maybe some branches of Christianity could (the newer versions) but most religion I know about says stand up against corruption, so I think that it would just cause the leaders trouble if everyone was religious. I don't think it would help them control us.

Hahah, you're some joker aren't you? So it's possible to live to around 200 now, is it? Maybe if said person was kept in a lab his or her whole life. That argument of water and 'pure' food just doesn't hold up. The average age of mankind has risen almost exponentially these last 200 years, mainly due to medicine, lifestyle changes and more sanitary foods! I really don't know where you get that idea from that ancient humans would've been able to live LONGER than today.

And you don't see how the Church has (mis)used religion to control people?

[BoneDog]

1. Ive never once stated that I don't believe there is a higher power that exists. What I have said is that I don't believe this so called high power is a man with a fluffy beard who lives in the clouds called god/allah whatever you want to call him.

2. Yes parallel worlds and what not aren't fact yet or any proof but there is a lot more logical arguments to prove that there is more chance of this than the religious route of heaven and hell.

3. We are a species based on logic and saying that a book written all those years ago sums up the key to life is not logical. Out of all the people on here empty Im surprised the most you are religious. You bang on about these conspiracy theories which are carried out by people in power yet you are naive to believe that Noah the ark was real. It seems blindly obvious that religion has always been around as strongly as it has because it gives people a sense of security even if it may be false and also helps to maintain society in a lawful way to a certain extent. So its not all bad.

1. I don't believe in a man with a beard either, I thought I'd said that loads of times! Unseen power that no man can know is what I believe in.

2. Whose to say that some of these parallel worlds are not our next destination? Hence heaven or hell?

3. Belief in Noah and the story of the flood is not naive I don't think. Like I've said, this event happened in and around Mesopatamia around 5000 years ago. This has been proved with geological evidence of at least 4 major cities that were wiped out at the time, BY A FLOOD. The geologists and archeaologists worked there for decades digging and finding evidence of this event. Normally the layers of earth, mud etc are built up over hundreds of years, but what they found there were massive layers that happened all at once. (there's more to it than that obviously but I'd have to read it all again).

And the religious people I know are not doing it cos they want to feel secure, or cos of fear of death. They are headstrong clever folk who truly believe that there is more than just this material world we see around us.

[BoneDog]

Hahah, you're some joker aren't you? So it's possible to live to around 200 now, is it? Maybe if said person was kept in a lab his or her whole life. That argument of water and 'pure' food just doesn't hold up. The average age of mankind has risen almost exponentially these last 200 years, mainly due to medicine, lifestyle changes and more sanitary foods! I really don't know where you get that idea from that ancient humans would've been able to live LONGER than today.

And you don't see how the Church has (mis)used religion to control people?

Yes I do see how the church has used it's power for control. True Christians don't need church. There is a guy, I think he is called Christopher Story (he is a Christian) and he explains it better than I ever could, but he says in a nutshell "the church is impediment to the truth".

I'm saying that if we didn't have all the polutions and poisons we've got today then, yes, we could live alot longer. And in old times when food was pure, when water was pure and there was no industry or pollution, yes I believe folk could live longer. Long time ago though.

[BoneDog]

Hopefully in our lifetime we will discover other life forms in our own universe yet alone others.

It is amazing really when you look at the sky at night and put things into perspective (especially when stoned ), but I think religion restricts people in digesting the thought of the beauty of life and all things around us and having a little freedom to think and speculate. We were born with brains use them.

I don't know one person who believes in a Creator who doesn't use their mind. They all have very open minds.

I also don't think religion restricts people from thinking about our universe, it encourages it. Not all religion though, sure.

Did you know that in Islam, God says that there are 18,000 worlds and that there are living lifeforms in every one?