Possible Cardiff Administration (Hypothetical)

[WhoDey]

It doesn't have to be a formal bank type loan, I'm sure they have plenty of rich 'friends' who may not want to part with money on a permanent basis but would be happy to sanction a short term loan.

Of course they could try conning the fans again

I'd be beyond amazed if they went into admin now.

Cardiff Council and the club's shareholders gave them permission to sell some of the land surrounding the stadium in February - but it's not been sold yet.

Yes the club could get money from a "rich friend" as you put it.

If they were going to get this money though, I would have thought they'd have got it before the last High Court hearing in March and cleared the HMRC bill already.

We'll see what happens.

[Walshy5]

If cardiff do have a points deduction we should get a by to the final

[Jordan]

How is Peter Ridsdale even allowed to be anywhere near a football club at this point?

[Guest]

This seems to have slipped under the radar a bit recently.

Well, if you count the thread started on 28th March in the Gen Sport forum (which incidentally, this thread should be in.....?), I'd say that's not the case at all.

I can't see the hearing being delayed. Imagine how bad it would be if Cardiff won the Playoff Final and then faced the postponed winding-up order. The headache for the Football League would be immense. Whichever club missed out on the playoff spot would sue the FL for allowing an insolvent team to compete rather than them, the club knocked out by them in the semi would demand a replay...it would be extremely ugly. Also the High Court have been clear that this is Cardiff's final hance to pay the outstanding debt. From that BBC source in my original post, "the High Court warned that the next case on 5 May would be marked 'final'".

If Cardiff won the Play Off final, they would not be wound up. To suggest they would is silly.

The HC has the discretion to pass any order or judgment it feels like, as long as it is just to do so. If it is just to allow Cardiff the chance to raise revenue through a play off run, it would be just to do so. That way creditors would be paid. If wound up, the creditors would get nothing. More so if they are promoted.

[Guest]

Forgot to add, the date for the hearing was to tie in with the end of the season; the fact Cardiff's season has been extended is very relevant, IMO. I expect the final hearing to be adjourned.

[Daggers]

How is Peter Ridsdale even allowed to be anywhere near a football club at this point?

The 'fit and proper' test fell into disrepute as soon as it was incepted.

[Guest DavidJCW]

Don't invite us to your fooking league in the first place then.

This won't be happening, we have investment due this week http://www.walesonline.co.uk/footballnation/cardiff-city-fc/2010/04/25/new-malaysian-investment-from-bluebirds-is-on-course-91466-26311607/

Kiss your dreams of 4th goodbye.

Oh jog on... I couldn't give a flying f**k about finishing 4th or 5th. Either way, we're in the play-offs and have a very good chance of making the Premiership!

[WhoDey]

Well, if you count the thread started on 28th March in the Gen Sport forum (which incidentally, this thread should be in.....?), I'd say that's not the case at all.

I wasn't talking about how well this affair has been covered by this forum, I was referring more to the fact that the media in general don't mention this at all. In last night's Football League show they made a big deal about Southend's upcoming date at the High Court when their relegation was confirmed, yet when Cardiff secured their playoff spot they didn't mention it at all.

If the thread isn't in the right place, I apologise. However the original post was not really talking about Cardiff, more about the impact of a possible deduction on LCFC.

If Cardiff won the Play Off final, they would not be wound up. To suggest they would is silly.

The HC has the discretion to pass any order or judgment it feels like, as long as it is just to do so. If it is just to allow Cardiff the chance to raise revenue through a play off run, it would be just to do so. That way creditors would be paid. If wound up, the creditors would get nothing. More so if they are promoted.

How about this worst case scenario then:

The hearing is adjourned until the future becomes clear. Cardiff beat Leicester (gasp!) in the semi, then lose to Blackpool, who beat Forest in the semi (double gasp!), in the final.

Then they hold the adjourned hearing, no investment comes in, the High Court declares Cardiff insolvent and they go into administration.

The 10 point penalty is applied, meaning they should never have been in the playoffs.

Swansea, who were unfairly denied a playoff spot, demand the playoffs should be replayed with Swansea included.

Leicester argue that they should have played Blackpool instead of Cardiff, and demand that the playoffs are replayed.

Forest argue they should have played Swansea instead of Blackpool, and demand the playoffs are replayed.

Blackpool argue they won their Prem spot fair and square.

Major headache for the FL which gets a ton of bad PR.

This worst case scenario illustrates exactly why the hearing should be held as scheduled, before the playoffs. It's not an ideal solution but the inconvenience it would cause would be nothing compared to the potential chaos of the alternative.

[Guest]

I wasn't talking about how well this affair has been covered by this forum, I was referring more to the fact that the media in general don't mention this at all. In last night's Football League show they made a big deal about Southend's upcoming date at the High Court when their relegation was confirmed, yet when Cardiff secured their playoff spot they didn't mention it at all.

If the thread isn't in the right place, I apologise. However the original post was not really talking about Cardiff, more about the impact of a possible deduction on LCFC.

How about this more likely scenario then:

The hearing is adjourned until the future becomes clear. Cardiff beat Leicester (gasp!) in the semi, then lose to Forest (double gasp!) in the final.

Then they hold the adjourned hearing, no investment comes in, the High Court declares Cardiff insolvent and they go into administration.

The 10 point penalty is applied, meaning they should never have been in the playoffs.

Swansea, who were unfairly denied a playoff spot, demand the playoffs should be replayed with Swansea included.

Leicester argue that they should have played Blackpool instead of Cardiff, and demand that the playoffs are replayed.

Forest argue they won their Prem spot fair and square.

Major headache for the FL which gets a ton of bad PR.

This scenario illustrates exactly why the hearing should be held as scheduled, before the playoffs. It's not an ideal solution but the inconvenience it would cause would be nothing compared to the potential chaos of the alternative.

It's turning into a debate about Cardiff, with little discussion on us, but as others have left it, so have I...

The play offs will make Cardiff money, regardless of whether they go up or not. This would enable them to pay off creditors, and renegotiate paying off the balance of any monies still owing.

As I said, the date appears to have been set to coincide with end of the season. Cardiff's season will not have ended by the 5th May, so how can there be a final hearing when it's not known what division Cardiff will be in? If they are promoted, they'll be able to clear a lot of debt, even if it means coming straight back down, and like I also said above, it would be in the best interests of creditors to be paid the monies owed, which wouldn't happen if Cardiff go into administration or go bust. The decision to go ahead and make a final order declaring one or the other has to be made on the ability to pay creditors, which is linked to football in that the division they play in affects this. The court won't look at the impact that their decision has on us, Blackpool, Swansea or Forest, but on those owed money. That's why I believe the decision will be adjourned. The court won't be concerned with what happens to us if Cardiff go bust.

This is all based on an assumption Cardiff haven't already paid up, or have raised the funds to pay up. For all we know, they could be sitting on it, and trying to accrue as much interest as possible by paying at the last minute.

As for the FL getting bad PR, I don't think they would. The matter is well out of their control. They can't impose a penalty on the basis something might happen. Us, Swansea, Forest and Blackpool are well aware of Cardiff's predicament. I would be pissed off to lose to Cardiff, regardless of later deductions. I couldn't bring myself to worry about "what ifs..." though. Shit happens. I would prefer us to concentrate on improving on this season's performance and go up automatically next time, than spend the summer bickering about how we should have played Blackpool, or Swansea, or whoever.

I mean, where does it end? What if Cardiff are promoted, pocket the £XXm, spend it on players/waste it/redirect it/pay off debts/whatever, and then go into administration before Xmas because they know they aren't staying up? Do all of us launch an appeal and ask for the play offs to be replayed then?

[leftsideoverhere]

Neil Warnock was a dick when he complained about Leicester's ability on the pitch being allowed its proper reward regardless of financial goings-on off the pitch. Ever since then, the football authorities have got into worse and worse trouble by trying to 'legislate' for financial issues within the rules of their competitions, and court proceedings have a bigger and bigger impact on football every year.

It is in no football fans' interest for Cardiff's playoff chance to be fooked by the courts.

I know he's got a personal stake in it, but the man who is talking most sense about this issue at the moment is Avram Grant. Let the football decide.

If Ridsdale can't manage the Cardiff finances, then he should go, but why should the fans and the team be penalised? Neither points deductions nor clubs going bust can possibly be good for football.

[CosbehFox]

Won't happen. Cardiff will make some claim that they have money on the way. (Which they do in the short-term) and it will get adjourn to late May.

[Fosse Fox]

Neil Warnock was a dick when he complained about Leicester's ability on the pitch being allowed its proper reward regardless of financial goings-on off the pitch. Ever since then, the football authorities have got into worse and worse trouble by trying to 'legislate' for financial issues within the rules of their competitions, and court proceedings have a bigger and bigger impact on football every year.

It is in no football fans' interest for Cardiff's playoff chance to be fooked by the courts.

I know he's got a personal stake in it, but the man who is talking most sense about this issue at the moment is Avram Grant. Let the football decide.

If Ridsdale can't manage the Cardiff finances, then he should go, but why should the fans and the team be penalised? Neither points deductions nor clubs going bust can possibly be good for football.

You conveniently forget that this is Ridsdale's second offence and that he and others like him (Storrie, Duffen) cynically abuse club revenue and credit facilities. HMRC must send out a clear signal that they are not going to tolerate football clubs gaining an advantage through financial malfeasance (it is most unlikely that they would have finished in the play offs this season if they had remained at Ninian Park).

Portsmouth's case is even worse - they reached the final of a major domestic competition twice when their wage bill alone exceeded total revenues by 10%.

Much as I like Pompey and their fans, administration is too good for them. The club should be placed in receivership and liquidated. A new club could then be formed and capitalised by a public offering of shares. It would start life in a regional semi professional league. Within five seasons this new venture could be well ensconced in the Conference. So, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

After all, just look at where the AFC Wombles are now...

[WhoDey]

It's turning into a debate about Cardiff, with little discussion on us, but as others have left it, so have I...

The play offs will make Cardiff money, regardless of whether they go up or not. This would enable them to pay off creditors, and renegotiate paying off the balance of any monies still owing.

As I said, the date appears to have been set to coincide with end of the season. Cardiff's season will not have ended by the 5th May, so how can there be a final hearing when it's not known what division Cardiff will be in? If they are promoted, they'll be able to clear a lot of debt, even if it means coming straight back down, and like I also said above, it would be in the best interests of creditors to be paid the monies owed, which wouldn't happen if Cardiff go into administration or go bust. The decision to go ahead and make a final order declaring one or the other has to be made on the ability to pay creditors, which is linked to football in that the division they play in affects this. The court won't look at the impact that their decision has on us, Blackpool, Swansea or Forest, but on those owed money. That's why I believe the decision will be adjourned. The court won't be concerned with what happens to us if Cardiff go bust.

This is all based on an assumption Cardiff haven't already paid up, or have raised the funds to pay up. For all we know, they could be sitting on it, and trying to accrue as much interest as possible by paying at the last minute.

As for the FL getting bad PR, I don't think they would. The matter is well out of their control. They can't impose a penalty on the basis something might happen. Us, Swansea, Forest and Blackpool are well aware of Cardiff's predicament. I would be pissed off to lose to Cardiff, regardless of later deductions. I couldn't bring myself to worry about "what ifs..." though. Shit happens. I would prefer us to concentrate on improving on this season's performance and go up automatically next time, than spend the summer bickering about how we should have played Blackpool, or Swansea, or whoever.

I mean, where does it end? What if Cardiff are promoted, pocket the £XXm, spend it on players/waste it/redirect it/pay off debts/whatever, and then go into administration before Xmas because they know they aren't staying up? Do all of us launch an appeal and ask for the play offs to be replayed then?

I agree, it is now turning into a debate about Cardiff and what decision the High Court should make.

The playoffs will make Cardiff money. Whether that'll be enough to pay their HMRC debt is another matter. Other creditors will have to wait. We don't know if Cardiff can pay up. To me it looks unlikely as there have been previous court dates without money materialising. I agree, there should be no penalty issued until the High Court have made their decision.

If Cardiff are promoted then as you say, they will pay the HMRC debt and that'll be the end of it all, they will not go into administration.

I agree the High Court doesn't, and shouldn't, give a toss about other clubs in the playoff mix. That mess, if it occurs, is something the FL has to deal with. If my nightmare scenario happens, there will be 3 clubs demanding the playoffs to be replayed and they all would have a very good case - especially the club who was wrongfully exlcluded. Even if Leicester got promoted then Cardiff went into admin due to nonpayment to the HMRC, I would still understand these complaints. The FL would be under big pressure to replay the playoffs by not only the clubs involved but also probably the Court of Arbitration for Sport, which due to logistics the FL would resist. The repurcussions of all this would be an absolute nightmare and would probably not be resolved by the start of next season, knowing how slow the CoAfS is.

What you seem to be proposing is that the High Court should entertain a 1 in 4 gamble.

If they win, everyone's happy and other clubs will follow the Cardiff model of mortgaging the club's future in the hope of short-term success.

If they lose, whoops! The League would be brought into disrepute.

Somehow (trying not to get too political), that sums up the past decade perfectly.

[WhoDey]

You conveniently forget that this is Ridsdale's second offence and that he and others like him (Storrie, Duffen) cynically abuse club revenue and credit facilities. HMRC must send out a clear signal that they are not going to tolerate football clubs gaining an advantage through financial malfeasance (it is most unlikely that they would have finished in the play offs this season if they had remained at Ninian Park).

I was trying to say this but couldn't get the words together. This sums up my opinion on the High Court side of things. An adjournement would be a travesty.

The more I think about how things are likely to play out, the more I find myself hoping Cardiff find this cash and it all gets resolved, because otherwise it would be bad for the health of the game.

[Uncle Monty]

I know somebody that works at Cardiff City, and they have said pretty much what everyone else is. That the revenue from the play-offs will pay their debts. Also something about the stadium being potentially named after a buisnessman trying to promote a clothing label.

[LCFC-ARAB]

Don't know if it will matter

but i remember reading somewhere that any person who renewed their season ticket for next season before 31st of december last year, will get a full refund if they are promoted

that cant help their finances

[Dylan]

Don't know if it will matter

but i remember reading somewhere that any person who renewed their season ticket for next season before 31st of december last year, will get a full refund if they are promoted

they cant help their finances

Yep. I can remember seeing this too on their site.

[Guest]

I agree the High Court doesn't, and shouldn't, give a toss about other clubs in the playoff mix. That mess, if it occurs, is something the FL has to deal with. If my nightmare scenario happens, there will be 3 clubs demanding the playoffs to be replayed and they all would have a very good case - especially the club who was wrongfully exlcluded.

If they lose, whoops! The League would be brought into disrepute.

Somehow (trying not to get too political), that sums up the past decade perfectly.

Disagree - I would hope that the other clubs have the decorum not to make demands from the FL. As LSOH says, Colin's reaction to our promotion was unnecessary and uncalled for. I found it embarrassing for SheffYoo. If Colin had his way, we would never have been promoted. I find it hard to reconcile our promotion whilst in administration with potentially booting out Cardiff at this stage of the season. At the end of the day, Cardiff have got where they have for their on the field performances. How much is down to off the field activities, we will never know.

And how can the FL be brought into disrepute? Especially as they can't take sanctions until after the event? I agree that Ridsdale, along with a number of others, should never be allowed near another football club again, but that's for the legislators to decide, not the FL. At the end of the day, football clubs are businesses, and they have to run in accordance with company law. If they weren't, these people would have been in trouble months ago. The laws need to be tightened in this respect, not just in football, but in business in general, as there are far too many people making a hash of running companies who just go and set up another one after their latest venture has failed. So the FLs hands are tied as far as I can see.

[Matt]

Disagree - I would hope that the other clubs have the decorum not to make demands from the FL. As LSOH says, Colin's reaction to our promotion was unnecessary and uncalled for. I found it embarrassing for SheffYoo. If Colin had his way, we would never have been promoted. I find it hard to reconcile our promotion whilst in administration with potentially booting out Cardiff at this stage of the season. At the end of the day, Cardiff have got where they have for their on the field performances. How much is down to off the field activities, we will never know.

And how can the FL be brought into disrepute? Especially as they can't take sanctions until after the event? I agree that Ridsdale, along with a number of others, should never be allowed near another football club again, but that's for the legislators to decide, not the FL. At the end of the day, football clubs are businesses, and they have to run in accordance with company law. If they weren't, these people would have been in trouble months ago. The laws need to be tightened in this respect, not just in football, but in business in general, as there are far too many people making a hash of running companies who just go and set up another one after their latest venture has failed. So the FLs hands are tied as far as I can see.

Did they or did the not vote for a points deduction for any team that goes into administration though?

[Guest]

Did they or did the not vote for a points deduction for any team that goes into administration though?

City were the only club to vote against the points deduction. I would find it hypocritical if we then kicked up if Cardiff weren't given a points deduction.

[WhoDey]

Disagree - I would hope that the other clubs have the decorum not to make demands from the FL. As LSOH says, Colin's reaction to our promotion was unnecessary and uncalled for. I found it embarrassing for SheffYoo. If Colin had his way, we would never have been promoted. I find it hard to reconcile our promotion whilst in administration with potentially booting out Cardiff at this stage of the season. At the end of the day, Cardiff have got where they have for their on the field performances. How much is down to off the field activities, we will never know.

And how can the FL be brought into disrepute? Especially as they can't take sanctions until after the event? I agree that Ridsdale, along with a number of others, should never be allowed near another football club again, but that's for the legislators to decide, not the FL. At the end of the day, football clubs are businesses, and they have to run in accordance with company law. If they weren't, these people would have been in trouble months ago. The laws need to be tightened in this respect, not just in football, but in business in general, as there are far too many people making a hash of running companies who just go and set up another one after their latest venture has failed. So the FLs hands are tied as far as I can see.

If my scenario happened any club would rightly kick up a stink asking for the playoffs to be replayed. I'm all for letting on field performances decide league placings but the FL rules are quite clear - any club who enters administration gets a 10-point penalty. The question is how this would be retrospectively applied in the event that the hearing was adjourned and the playoffs had already taken place.

That's the bit where the league would be brought into disrepute - the FL would be in the unenviable position of either letting the playoff results stand or replaying them. Either way some clubs and fans would not be happy with whatever the FL decide. I'm not advocating the FL to take any action now, all I'm saying is I hope the hearing takes place as scheduled so the playoffs are not compromised in any way, and the FL stick by their own rules relating to administration if Cardiff are wound up by the court. A statement by the FL clearing up the situation would be welcome, especially if the hearing is adjourned.

[Matt]

City were the only club to vote against the points deduction. I would find it hypocritical if we then kicked up if Cardiff weren't given a points deduction.

Thing is its in power now, the law is there, if we went into adminstration we would get a points deduction.

Yes it'd be hypocritical, it would be wrong going against what is in our eyes correct, what I was saying though is Cardiff voted for the points deduction - they should get it, what goes around comes around I would have no sympathy whatsoever, just like the comments I have made about Crystal Palaces potential relegation in the Championship thread in general sport.

I wasn't going to post in this thread but I have, Nothing will happen re: Cardiff's problems anyway.

[Brainy]

I think we would all want to play Blackpool rather than Cardiff over 2 legs.

I must be alone in not wanting that. Cardiff can beat anybody on their day but they do tend to bottle it on big occasions. Blackpool have been consistently impressive, are in just as good form as Cardiff and are great at home.

I'd rather be facing Swansea, didn't think i'd be saying that back in January.

[unreachable]

Disagree - I would hope that the other clubs have the decorum not to make demands from the FL. As LSOH says, Colin's reaction to our promotion was unnecessary and uncalled for. I found it embarrassing for SheffYoo. If Colin had his way, we would never have been promoted. I find it hard to reconcile our promotion whilst in administration with potentially booting out Cardiff at this stage of the season. At the end of the day, Cardiff have got where they have for their on the field performances. How much is down to off the field activities, we will never know.

And how can the FL be brought into disrepute? Especially as they can't take sanctions until after the event? I agree that Ridsdale, along with a number of others, should never be allowed near another football club again, but that's for the legislators to decide, not the FL. At the end of the day, football clubs are businesses, and they have to run in accordance with company law. If they weren't, these people would have been in trouble months ago. The laws need to be tightened in this respect, not just in football, but in business in general, as there are far too many people making a hash of running companies who just go and set up another one after their latest venture has failed. So the FLs hands are tied as far as I can see.

Has anyone yet found out what Football League rules would actually apply in this case or is this topic pure speculation? On a Google search this topic crops up on various forums including Swansea City and Bristol City. In view of the protracted appeals and litigation surrounding Leeds United the Football League and its constituent clubs had a responsibility to overhaul the administration rules and provide for the situation of administration taking place after the end of a season and the conclusion of the Play Offs. If there is uncertainty then why shouldn't the Football League and its clubs be regarded by the public as disreputable for not putting into effect comprehensive rules?

[cecchini]

I actually feel quite bad that we are gloating over another clubs financial problems.

Clubs are about the fans - try to remember how you felt when we went into administration...

Personally as i have said elsewhere, we are good enough to get to the premeriship this season, we don't need Cardiff to go into administraion to help our cause.

- I wish them luck, and hope they gat out of it (and then lose to us on the pitch of course!)