Death Penalty

[Finnegan]

Plenty of criminals admit to being terrified of other gangland criminals due to the threat of violence or death that would be inflicted on them if they upset the hard men of the criminal fraternity (eg. Krays etc.)

How come the threat of death/injury becomes a deterrent to any transgression when inflicted by other more violent criminals but not by the state ?

Probably because the state aren't likely to chop off parts of your body, torture you or go after your family.

Plus, with all due respect and a massive bunch of assumptions about your lifestyle, that's just speculation and drama you've likely either taken from the odd article or from TV, it's hardly evidence (while the ample stats piled up comparing crime rates along side sentencing levels are.)

[Daggers]

Probably because the state aren't likely to chop off parts of your body, torture you or go after your family.

Well, not unless they could get the CIA to take you to another country first.

[stez]

I would be quite comfortable in taking the life of another human being who has guilty of a capital crime, but it would have to be beyond all reasonable doubt (as would be the case for a death sentence in this country)

bit like the fellow who was killed for saying 'let him have it' when a criminal collegue was asked to give a police man a gun? that statement could be taken more than one way, but he was still killed, and as the executioner i doubt you'd have much say in whether the crime was proved beyond reasonable doubt or not.

Well we don't have it and I doubt we ever will, but if a country does have it or any other punishment/crime different to us and you commit a crime in that country then you need to be prepared to pay the consequences without squealing it's unfair, defend yourself by all means but fairness doesn't come into it.

i've not committed a capital crime (to my knowledge ), am i allowed to disagree with the countries who have it? if, maybe, i'm duped into one (somehow) would i lose my right to disagree with a county's death penalty?

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure the guy has never been diagnosed as being mentally unstable and there was never any mention of his bi polar before he was caught drug smuggling.

So what is this now an acceptable form of defence for all drug smugglers?

I too read that there was no mention of "mental illness" by his defence team at his trial - but once he was sentenced, his family remembered that he was bi-polar....

Rather remiss of them I think.

One less guilty drug smuggler I guess....

So basically, make sure you get your mental disorders diagnosed before committing the crime.

Coincidently, the queen still as the authority to issue a death sentence on someone for high treason...

I believe that's no longer true

Think that statute went out with the introduction of the Human Rights Act. Could be wrong though.

We no longer have the death penalty, and that includes high treason. The UK didn't ratify Protocol 13 until 1998, although it's a requirement of membership to the Council of Europe.

[davieG]

bit like the fellow who was killed for saying 'let him have it' when a criminal collegue was asked to give a police man a gun? that statement could be taken more than one way, but he was still killed, and as the executioner i doubt you'd have much say in whether the crime was proved beyond reasonable doubt or not.

i've not committed a capital crime (to my knowledge ), am i allowed to disagree with the countries who have it? if, maybe, i'm duped into one (somehow) would i lose my right to disagree with a county's death penalty?

I did in my original post clarify the duped part and said or implied if the crime was committed knowingly or without duress. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse here, unless you're an MP so I don't see why it should be the case if you're in another country.

And yes everyone's entitled to disagree but I think it's a tad late after a crime's been committed.

[Webbo]

So why does this logic not apply to drinks companies, tobacco companies, oil companies (small particulants from diesel killing 40,000 a year in the UK) or other so called ok (power companies, car companies, etc) but killing third party companies. Moreover how many people have died through the harsh winters because the Government is too mean to pay for adequate heating for the old.

So oil/power companies kill people through pollution but the govt should give people more money to spend on heating?

[Suffolk_fox]

So basically, make sure you get your mental disorders diagnosed before committing the crime.

Or at least if you believe they are Radio Rental, maybe mention it at court?

The 'evidence' that he was bi polar is all anecdotal, and no mention of his bizarre behaviour was mentioned at court. More a case of "Ok, so he's been found guilty - we can always appeal and play the 'mental illness' card...."

[Finnegan]

Or at least if you believe they are Radio Rental, maybe mention it at court?

The 'evidence' that he was bi polar is all anecdotal, and no mention of his bizarre behaviour was mentioned at court. More a case of "Ok, so he's been found guilty - we can always appeal and play the 'mental illness' card...."

Wonder whether people would be so cynical if he was white and middle class...

[Webbo]

Wonder whether people would be so cynical if he was white and middle class...

Would you be so sympathetic if he was?

[Guest]

Or at least if you believe they are Radio Rental, maybe mention it at court?

The 'evidence' that he was bi polar is all anecdotal, and no mention of his bizarre behaviour was mentioned at court. More a case of "Ok, so he's been found guilty - we can always appeal and play the 'mental illness' card...."

So you've watched the whole trial? Or at the very least, read the transcripts?

None of us really know what was said in the court room, and yes, people always try to mitigate by claiming some kind of mental disorder or whatever, even in this country. But at least ascertain whether or not it's correct before dismissing the claim. It isn't unusual for someone to be undiagnosed with a mental illness, especially given the prejudice surrounding such disorders.

[lou]

I always find myself massively irritated by everyone's knee-jerk overreaction to drug dealers / smugglers.

I'm well aware the drugs industry inflicts all sorts of misery on the native peoples of the growing communities in the likes of Latin America, Asia and the Middle East but I'm also aware that Primark do the same (albeit likely without guns) and you don't hear people moaning about that.

I've done drugs, I've enjoyed drugs and I'm not a purse-snatching rapist. I'm completely for the legalization of weed and I'd love to see looser laws on the likes of ecstacy and speed. Can't stand the ridiculously conservative attitudes towards the drugs trade that some people have, even those who are normally completely liberal or centerist in their state of mind.

It's just sheltered and born of fear and the irony is that people's high overreactions to these people and these trades are what fuel the laws and the fact that they're so highly illegal is what creates such a dangerous and violent trade to keep them in circulation in the first place. There'd be significantly less drug-related exploitation and crime if the bastard things were just fucking legalized and commercialized!

I used to smoke weed when I was young, tried a bit of Coke in a spliff a few times too, I, like you, was lucky and didnt develop a mental illness from smoking it.

Trust me Im not sheltered, far from it, I could write a fecking book. Ive seen stuff I wouldnt want anyone to witness. My hatred of drugs and those who deal in them doesnt stem from fear, it stems from experience, facts, sufffering, trauma and years of caring for a drug-user whos brain is now so addled with Schizophrenia he developed from smoking weed that he will never be released from the secure unit which he now lives in. Hes lost his home, his kids, his family and doesnt even know his own name. Legalise it? No thanks - youre entitled to your opinion and I respect that but please dont assume my opinion is any less valid because after the times Ive had, I feel Im sodding well entitled to it. Over reaction you may think so...

[Daggers]

Wonder whether people would be so cynical if he was white and middle class...

Well early to be playing the race card, Finners.

I'd have thought that would come into it about page 17 of the thread.

Saying that, I always wondered if people would have been more upset about our government's involvement in torture had it been a nice white couple from Cheam who'd been waterboarded?

[Finnegan]

Would you be so sympathetic if he was?

1. I was on the wind up.

2. Fuck no, I hate rich people.

I used to smoke weed when I was young, tried a bit of Coke in a spliff a few times too, I, like you, was lucky and didnt develop a mental illness from smoking it.

Trust me Im not sheltered, far from it, I could write a fecking book. Ive seen stuff I wouldnt want anyone to witness. My hatred of drugs and those who deal in them doesnt stem from fear, it stems from experience, facts, sufffering, trauma and years of caring for a drug-user whos brain is now so addled with Schizophrenia he developed from smoking weed that he will never be released from the secure unit which he now lives in. Hes lost his home, his kids, his family and doesnt even know his own name. Legalise it? No thanks - youre entitled to your opinion and I respect that but please dont assume my opinion is any less valid because after the times Ive had, I feel Im sodding well entitled to it. Over reaction you may think so...

Wasn't my intention to make assumptions about your life specifically, it was more a generalization based on a lot of people I know that make frequent rants about drugs and the drug trade. I appreciate there are dangers and side effects of all of these substances but I'm of the belief that, personally, these are also things that could be decreased if more substances were legalized.

Instead of them being tabboo we could discuss them more openly and educate people about the side effects and the dangers without coming across as scare-mongering, dullard, "square" members of the nanny state.

Saying that, I always wondered if people would have been more upset about our government's involvement in torture had it been a nice white couple from Cheam who'd been waterboarded?

Most likely. I'm the walking embodiment of cynicism but it's always the case. Countless youth murders litter the headlines of the London Paper and the Standard and they often don't even make national front-pages; one pretty, white GP's daughter from Charnwood goes missing due to parental neglect on a Portugese resort and there's inernational hysteria. Not right.

[Daggers]

Countless youth murders litter the headlines of the London Paper and the Standard and they often don't even make national front-pages; one pretty, white GP's daughter from Charnwood goes missing due to parental neglect on a Portugese resort and there's inernational hysteria. Not right.

We need to find the person/people responsible for this state of affairs.

Find them and kill them.

[lou]

Wasn't my intention to make assumptions about your life specifically, it was more a generalization based on a lot of people I know that make frequent rants about drugs and the drug trade. I appreciate there are dangers and side effects of all of these substances but I'm of the belief that, personally, these are also things that could be decreased if more substances were legalized.

Instead of them being tabboo we could discuss them more openly and educate people about the side effects and the dangers without coming across as scare-mongering, dullard, "square" members of the nanny state.

Most likely. I'm the walking embodiment of cynicism but it's always the case. Countless youth murders litter the headlines of the London Paper and the Standard and they often don't even make national front-pages; one pretty, white GP's daughter from Charnwood goes missing due to parental neglect on a Portugese resort and there's inernational hysteria. Not right.

Maybe, Im afraid Im biased but Im certainly not one of the band-wagon jumpers. What youve said makes a lot of sense but its hard for me to even consider legalising these things to be honest. Its all too raw.

Youre 2nd point I 100% agree with. Likewise if Madeleine had been from a council estate the parents would have been slaughtered in the press and probably charged with neglect not given milllions of pounds for an appeal to find her.

[Finnegan]

We need to find the person/people responsible for this state of affairs.

Find them and kill them.

We're going to need to find a more up to date hate figure to blame EVERYTHING on, Thatcher's getting a bit dated.

Maybe, Im afraid Im biased but Im certainly not one of the band-wagon jumpers. What youve said makes a lot of sense but its hard for me to even consider legalising these things to be honest. Its all too raw.

But people are going to find drugs and do drugs regardless, I just wish there was better drug education out there that was less "TAKE SHIT AND YOU DIE!" and more informative. My entire generation has seen that Leah Betts video but the irony about using Leah Betts' case to shock and stun people out of using E is that if Leah herself had been taught not that E was simply bad or dangerous and had been openly, honestly educated about safe use then she'd probably still be alive (and have had a fucking great night.)

I fully understand your view and the views of countless people who are anti-drug, not through ignorance but reversely through experience, but my view is that there's millions of people around the globe who use drugs every year and love it up and that alcohol and tobacco related deaths outnumber, by miles, fatalities caused by the rest combined.

I guess I'm not really trying to "convert" you to my point of view, I imagine it's a decade or two late for that (no offence meant!) but I do feel the need to justify my own. I'm not entirely naive or childish, just fed up of the "fookin' druggies deserve what they get, rah rah rah!" Sun-reading bullshit.

Youre 2nd point I 100% agree with. Likewise if Madeleine had been from a council estate the parents would have been slaughtered in the press and probably charged with neglect not given milllions of pounds for an appeal to find her.

Believe. It's not even just race, it's class. People will dance to the tune of any old hypocrisy if the press tell them to.

[Guest Bilo]

We're going to need to find a more up to date hate figure to blame EVERYTHING on, Thatcher's getting a bit dated.

Fuck it, this guy'll do.

[Finnegan]

Fuck it, this guy'll do.

We're basically going through the thread opening as much Can'O'Worm as possible, here.

[Webbo]

We're basically going through the thread opening as much Can'O'Worm as possible, here.

Hmmm? What would Jesus do?

[Guest Bilo]

We're basically going through the thread opening as much Can'O'Worm as possible, here.

Well if Saddam deserved to swing.........

[Finnegan]

Hmmm? What would Jesus do?

Fuck a young, male student.

Yes. Knew I could get homosexuallity, pedophillia and blasphemy into this.

[lou]

We're going to need to find a more up to date hate figure to blame EVERYTHING on, Thatcher's getting a bit dated.

But people are going to find drugs and do drugs regardless, I just wish there was better drug education out there that was less "TAKE SHIT AND YOU DIE!" and more informative. My entire generation has seen that Leah Betts video but the irony about using Leah Betts' case to shock and stun people out of using E is that if Leah herself had been taught not that E was simply bad or dangerous and had been openly, honestly educated about safe use then she'd probably still be alive (and have had a fucking great night.)

I fully understand your view and the views of countless people who are anti-drug, not through ignorance but reversely through experience, but my view is that there's millions of people around the globe who use drugs every year and love it up and that alcohol and tobacco related deaths outnumber, by miles, fatalities caused by the rest combined.

I guess I'm not really trying to "convert" you to my point of view, I imagine it's a decade or two late for that (no offence meant!) but I do feel the need to justify my own. I'm not entirely naive or childish, just fed up of the "fookin' druggies deserve what they get, rah rah rah!" Sun-reading bullshit.

Believe. It's not even just race, it's class. People will dance to the tune of any old hypocrisy if the press tell them to.

Ive never read the Sun for a start Ive lived.... I lived in Highfields when Crack Cocaine hit years ago, I saw countless people go from working, having kids and nice cars and houses to destitute, homeless, ill and even dead. Im not exagerating. I havent got enough fingers on both hands to count the amount of people Ive known die already (Im 43) from drug related crimes/illnesses)

Thing is some young people seem to think theyre the only generation to do drugs and us oldies dont know what the fook were talking about....

Why the feck does someone have to take a pill to have a "fooking great night"? I find that pretty sad to be honest. Ive done it all, seen it all bought the tee-shirt but I can enjoy myself perfectly well without the help of illegal substances thanks. Saying that Id probably think the same way 25 years ago but now Ive seen the consequences I feel differently.

Playing Russian Roulette with my mental health isnt on my agenda.

[Zingari]

I do miss going to the stonings , and not just for the dressing up and wearing false beards .

There was a community spirit in them days that you just don't get anymore . I mean who wants to go and sit looking at a wrongdoer just sitting in a cell

Young 'uns just don't know how to have a good time these days ,

[Finnegan]

I never said she had to take E to have a great night. My drug use has been immensely casual and hugely sporodic, I much prefer a good alcohol powered bender. I also do think that a lot of class A substances should stay banned but even in those instances I think we should adopt a policy of proper drugs education in schools, seminars with former users - those with bad and good experiences. The scaremongering almost makes a lot of these substances glamorous and misinformed potential drug users are far bigger risk to themselves than those with a little know-how.

As I said, people are going to do drugs regardless at the end of the day. You'll never, ever stop the trend.

[lou]

I never said she had to take E to have a great night. My drug use has been immensely casual and hugely sporodic, I much prefer a good alcohol powered bender. I also do think that a lot of class A substances should stay banned but even in those instances I think we should adopt a policy of proper drugs education in schools, seminars with former users - those with bad and good experiences. The scaremongering almost makes a lot of these substances glamorous and misinformed potential drug users are far bigger risk to themselves than those with a little know-how.

As I said, people are going to do drugs regardless at the end of the day. You'll never, ever stop the trend.

Sadly I agree with you on that. Enjoyed our little debate

Eermm werent we supposed to resort to name calling at some point though?