Mystery of WTC 7 - Conspiracy

[BoneDog]

There are no answers to why they are alive, because they are dead. You have showed ZERO proof of them being alive. US defences were not stood down.

You might be right about the supposed hijackers all being dead now, I don't know, but they certainly weren't all dead in the immediate future after 911. I've seen and heard people bring evidence of this and I'm sure that the evidence is still around.

US defence fighter jets were mostly flying over Canada and Alaska - conveniently out of the way - after being scrambled by The Pentagon. There are many audio tapes of confusion being caused for radar workers, military and civilian. False images of planes were put on radar as part of the 'games'. War games were going on that involved the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), NORAD, FAA, Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS), and the Pentagon. A test exercise happened where a corporate jet flew into the NRO headquarters which required over 2000 of their employees to leave the office just as the real 911 was about to happen.

All of these exercises left US defenses venerable and confused when the real hijackings took place and planes really hit the WTC. Doesn't any of the above sound suspicious to you? Because I'm not sure how anyone can argue that US defences weren't 'stood down' on that morning.

Some people have done excellent research on the war games that were going on. I'll try to find and link the best I've read and seen. (I think Shen asked me to do that about a week ago and I had forgotten until writing this)

It's not a fact just because some bloke on youtube says it.

Who is this bloke on Youtube you speak of? The video I posted earlier is not 'some bloke on Youtube'. It is a collection of over 1500 top architects and engineers who are actively working to expose the lies that you are very keen to defend. They just happened to share their video free of charge on Youtube. God bless em.

Do you agree planes hit the twin towers? If so look again at the planes crashing in to it. These are extremely strong structures, not only does the plane slice through it like butter, it also slices through all the interior beams and walls etc and comes out the other side. (as shown in clips earlier).

Yes of course I agree that planes hit the two towers - I'm not as big a loon as you may think and I don't believe that old 'no plane' baloney!

I don't think the planes were the flights they were supposed to be. I believe they were modified 767's. And after watching many videos and hearing many credible people talk (including pilots and military folk) I also believe that the planes didn't slice through the WTC's and interior beams like butter without the help of explosive devices fitted inside the building.

You have absolutely no idea, what forces the Pentagon was reinforced to withstand. It certainly wasn't made to withstand everything because they have bunkers underneath it to keep people safe. From what I remember (may be wrong) it was reinforced after the oklahoma bombing. So there is a good possibility it's defences where made to withstand a blast from a stationery bomb.

I still believe that The Pentagon was designed to withstand alot more than a 757 and I will never be swayed that a 757 travelled through over 220 feet of that building and out of the other side of the ring. I believe it would have even taken less damage from some missiles than it supposedly did from that 757.

Some sort of excellent jazzed up missile, probably custom made, or military jet remotely controlled went through The Pentagon. Defo (which proves it)

You'd rather believe anyone who says what you want to hear.

Nah, I think that this is a better description of yourself than of me. I often change my mind on many theories.

[zubi]

brilliant video

[Rincewind]

Programme on ITV4 now about it

[marko]

Yes of course I agree that planes hit the two towers - I'm not as big a loon as you may think and I don't believe that old 'no plane' baloney!

I don't think the planes were the flights they were supposed to be. I believe they were modified 767's. And after watching many videos and hearing many credible people talk (including pilots and military folk) I also believe that the planes didn't slice through the WTC's and interior beams like butter without the help of explosive devices fitted inside the building.

I still believe that The Pentagon was designed to withstand alot more than a 757 and I will never be swayed that a 757 travelled through over 220 feet of that building and out of the other side of the ring. I believe it would have even taken less damage from some missiles than it supposedly did from that 757.

Some sort of excellent jazzed up missile, probably custom made, or military jet remotely controlled went through The Pentagon. Defo (which proves it)

So how did they rig the WTC with explosives?

The amount of explosives needed were vast, so how did they place them, which is a time consuming job when you consider the drilling into columns (normal controlled demolition teams take days to rig smaller buildings, and that's with uninterrupted access and no emphasis on stealth). The noise it creates would blow their cover. Lest we not forget, we're talking about one of the busiest office blocks in the world and not one person became suspicious as they systematically rigged 100+ floors with deadly explosives. Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

Finally, why were no explosives found in the dust samples?

How does that prove anything? You're so brainwashed by these theories.

[BoneDog]

Good round up that. I've heard that guy before somewhere, can't think where.

[easilee]

So how did they rig the WTC with explosives?

The amount of explosives needed were vast, so how did they place them, which is a time consuming job when you consider the drilling into columns (normal controlled demolition teams take days to rig smaller buildings, and that's with uninterrupted access and no emphasis on stealth). The noise it creates would blow their cover. Lest we not forget, we're talking about one of the busiest office blocks in the world and not one person became suspicious as they systematically rigged 100+ floors with deadly explosives. Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

Finally, why were no explosives found in the dust samples?

How does that prove anything? You're so brainwashed by these theories.

Unless you are in the demolition trade, how would you know how much it takes and how long. Demolition experts agree that these were controlled.

There is evidence that 'repairs' to lifts had been going on for weeks before the tragedy in the towers. People walking around the place in hard hats and overalls wouldn't look at all suspicious and neither would drilling sounds if the staff had been informed about the repairs.

[marko]

Unless you are in the demolition trade, how would you know how much it takes and how long. Demolition experts agree that these were controlled.

There is evidence that 'repairs' to lifts had been going on for weeks before the tragedy in the towers. People walking around the place in hard hats and overalls wouldn't look at all suspicious and neither would drilling sounds if the staff had been informed about the repairs.

Correct, i'm not, but if you'd care to watch the video a few pages back you'll see for yourself what a ridiculous theory it is. No good i'm afraid, the explosives needed to be drilled into all the support columns. I think some of the staff would have become slightly suspicious when some fella started hacking into a column and packing it out with explosives next to their desk, don't you?

[easilee]

Correct, i'm not, but if you'd care to watch the video a few pages back you'll see for yourself what a ridiculous theory it is. No good i'm afraid, the explosives needed to be drilled into all the support columns. I think some of the staff would have become slightly suspicious when some fella started hacking into a column and packing it out with explosives next to their desk, don't you?

Something tells me they could wait till they've all gone home.

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm still undecided. But the more info I get about all this (from both sides of the theory), the closer I get to fashioning a crude but stylish tinfoil headpeice.

[Zingari]

Good round up that. I've heard that guy before somewhere, can't think where.

i think it's james corbett

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6qtGzRkK6o

edit;

thanks for posting this easilee

[BoneDog]

So how did they rig the WTC with explosives?

The amount of explosives needed were vast, so how did they place them, which is a time consuming job when you consider the drilling into columns (normal controlled demolition teams take days to rig smaller buildings, and that's with uninterrupted access and no emphasis on stealth). The noise it creates would blow their cover. Lest we not forget, we're talking about one of the busiest office blocks in the world and not one person became suspicious as they systematically rigged 100+ floors with deadly explosives. Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

Finally, why were no explosives found in the dust samples?

There was no 'unlimited access'. Ever heard of the unprecedented power and building shutdowns of the WTC over a weekend just before 911? There is an English guy who was a director of a firm in the very floors of one WTC that one of the planes hit. He was in the building at the time above where the plane hit and he got out. He then talked about these unprecedented shutdowns. If you don't know the guy I'm talking about I will find a link to the interview.

The noise you talk about would not have caused any concern as construction and repair work was often going on in the towers.

There would not necessarily need to be any drilling involved at all. There are many ways to install explosives to make it look like insulation for instance. You can make sheets that look like plasterboard, that are made of solid jet fuel or other solid explosives, and which react at extremely high temperatures. These would have been easy to install and the people who installed them might not even know.

There was much evidence of explosives found in the dust samples and more evidence of this has come to light recently. If you took the time to watch the new Architects and Engineers or

video I'm sure you will learn that there was explosive material found in the dust.

[marko]

Something tells me they could wait till they've all gone home.

Don't get me wrong mate, I'm still undecided. But the more info I get about all this (from both sides of the theory), the closer I get to fashioning a crude but stylish tinfoil headpeice.

Think about how long that would take to rig two towers, each 100 + floors. Not to mention the mess that'd be left. They'd need to re-plaster and paint every column after packing it out. Think of the dust and smell in the morning. Not to mention getting all their tools and explosives past security every night. Then we come on to the fact they'd have to remain inconspicuous to the night guards that are bound to patrol the premises to an extent. Finally, there's still people working there at all hours and some come in at the crack of dawn as well. Do you honestly not believe if it was rigged at least a couple of people would have become suspicious and informed security/police?

[marko]

There was no 'unlimited access'. Ever heard of the unprecedented power and building shutdowns of the WTC over a weekend just before 911? There is an English guy who was a director of a firm in the very floors of one WTC that one of the planes hit. He was in the building at the time above where the plane hit and he got out. He then talked about these unprecedented shutdowns. If you don't know the guy I'm talking about I will find a link to the interview.

The noise you talk about would not have caused any concern as construction and repair work was often going on in the towers.

There would not necessarily need to be any drilling involved at all. There are many ways to install explosives to make it look like insulation for instance. You can make sheets that look like plasterboard, that are made of solid jet fuel or other solid explosives, and which react at extremely high temperatures. These would have been easy to install and the people who installed them might not even know.

There were many samples found in the dust samples and more evidence of this has come to light recently. If you took the time to watch the new Architects and Engineers or

video I'm sure you will learn that there was explosive material found in the dust.

Incorrect, to be effective the explosives need to be bored into the columns otherwise they would be sufficient to destroy them. It's been proven in tests.

So they rigged 200 floors in a weekend? Do you realise how ridiculous that claim is?

Edit: what explosives did they use? because there's been none found in the thousands of dust samples taken

[BoneDog]

How does that prove anything? You're so brainwashed by these theories.

I meant that me saying 'defo' at the end proves I was right, just messin

[Rincewind]

One question I would like answered is how did those planting explosives predict the amount of damage done to the WT7 prior to blowing it. Any damage would mean a recalculation.

[Zingari]

One question I would like answered is how did those planting explosives predict the amount of damage done to the WT7 prior to blowing it. Any damage would mean a recalculation.

why would it ?

if you know that to cause a collapse you have to simultaneously blow out all the support columns , why would it matter if a few were already broken ?

[BoneDog]

Incorrect, to be effective the explosives need to be bored into the columns otherwise they would be sufficient to destroy them. It's been proven in tests.

So they rigged 200 floors in a weekend? Do you realise how ridiculous that claim is?

Edit: what explosives did they use? because there's been none found in the thousands of dust samples taken

Evidence in the dust of explosive, or of extreme high temperature reactions, topped off with evidence of every single floor crumbling to dust with no pancake whatsoever neither any resistance encountered on the drop is evidence enough for me.

I haven't a clue when or how long it took them to rig a building But there was constant construction work going on and the buildings had unprecedented power downs and shutdowns (meaning no normal staff inside) for a weekend not long before 911.

[Rincewind]

The samples of explosives found were minute and could have been anything. They were not enough to establish where there had come from.

No aswers are being given. Just fitting events in to back up the therories. It is not known how long it would take to plant explosives but the building was empty at certain times so it must have been then. The WTC appeared to fall straight down so it must have been a controlled explosion. There are many more examples I am sure where the facts are twisted to fit the therories.

At the end of the day that is all they are Therories. No sound proof.

Theres a film on ITV4 now based on one of the missing airliners.

[The Doctor]

The good gentlemen at MIT have done some work for you with regards the planes. Please check their calculations.

F = ma ⇒ ∫t2 t1 F dt = m(v2 – v1)

Impulse = change in momentum

d = distance travelled by plane to a stop ≈ 50 m

v = velocity of plane ≈ 250 m/s

m = mass ≈ 200 ton

F = collision force

F = mv / td = ½ mv2 / d ≈ 12,500 ton

(weight of each floor ≈ 2,500 ton)

td = duration of collision = 2 d / v ≈ 0.4 s

Ek = kinetic energy

Ek = ½ MV2 = 6250 MJ

Doesn't show up well on foxestalk. Here's the link. http://web.mit.edu/i..._Istanbul04.pdf Slide 15

that all seems to make sense, I've edited the original post to use their masses instead as I think the converter I used to calculate tonnage may have been quite wrong.

There is another equation that can be used, mv²/2, where m is the mass & v is the velocity.

The plane would've had a velocity of roughly 259m/s and a mass of (for arguments sake lets say the plane was 3/4's of maximum weight capacity) 135,000 kg.

mv²/2 = (135000 * 259²)/2 = (135000 * 67,081)/2 = 9,055,935,000/2 = 4,527,967,500 joules or 4,527,967.5 KJ

A block of ordinary concrete an inch thick can withstand up to approximately 625N, and 1 newton is roughly equal to 1 joule.

The quote below is taken from a conspiracy website: link

However, the outer Pentagon wall comprised a framework (grid) of 10 inch reinforced concrete members with the intervening space filed with 8 inch thick brickwork. Over this was placed about 6 inches of decorative limestone. So, the (outer) wall was at most, 16 inches thick, and was not particularly strong (contrary to media reports). The following photos show this to be the case.

So if we take the pentagon walls to be the maximum of 16 inches thick, and even assume brick is as resilient as concrete (any DIY people will know that it isn't), we are looking at a force of at least 10,000N to break through the wall, assuming the concrete was solid rather than a grid.

It will be slightly more once the steel re-inforcements are taken into account but they will be at most an inch thick and would not increase the force previously calculated by much, as all it will really do is fill in the loss made once calculated using a grid method rather than solid block. I'd put the force at around 15,000 N or 15 KJ.

For the walls to be able to withstand the force of the plane, we'd be looking at resilience of 4,527,967,500 N - meaning the steel would have to be able to resist at least 4,527,957,500 N, something impossible for small rods less than 2 inches in diameter.

[Zingari]

The samples of explosives found were minute and could have been anything. They were not enough to establish where there had come from.

maybe the steel will provide the answer

oh shit , it's already been sold as scrap to asia

what a bugger eh ?

[easilee]

Think about how long that would take to rig two towers, each 100 + floors. Not to mention the mess that'd be left. They'd need to re-plaster and paint every column after packing it out. Think of the dust and smell in the morning. Not to mention getting all their tools and explosives past security every night. Then we come on to the fact they'd have to remain inconspicuous to the night guards that are bound to patrol the premises to an extent. Finally, there's still people working there at all hours and some come in at the crack of dawn as well. Do you honestly not believe if it was rigged at least a couple of people would have become suspicious and informed security/police?

Maybe.

I honestly don't know how quickly a 100 story building can be rigged to demolish. Nor what kind of explosives could be used to best effect.

But if it is an inside job, setting all of it up would, in my opinion, be childsplay for the intelligence services.

[BoneDog]

I generally find my self in these threads when the main Leicester forum is calling for the managers head after a few games of the season. I feel I have more chanced of convincing El Empty he's wrong, than convincing everyone sacking the manager 6 games into a season after he's just assembled a squad of his own players, may not be the best idea in the world.

I can be very fickle sometimes. I took offence to you talking about me earlier and got a bit mardy but I quite like this one

[Guest ttfn]

The most ridiculous thing about conspiracy theories such as these is the logic process.

It seems that a conspiracy theorist's mind works in a totally different way to that of a "sheep".

Conspiracists start with a solution, and select evidence to support it.

"Sheep" see what happens, are then told what happened, put two and two together, and come up with an answer.

Babylon and El Empty are never going to see eye-to-eye because their brains don't function in the same way.

For the record, I think these conspiracy theories are all a load of shit. The only part of it I even find a bit unlikely is that a rookie pilot could have flown a plane into the pentagon. But then again given how much sense the rest of the official story makes to me, that slight doubt doesn't make me question the overall facts of the case.

[Guest ttfn]

maybe the steel will provide the answer

oh shit , it's already been sold as scrap to asia

what a bugger eh ?

What were they supposed to do with a fck ton of steel they didn't need? Keep it? Just in case some people thought it might be useful to support a conspiracy theory further down the line?

[fleckneymike]

maybe the steel will provide the answer

oh shit , it's already been sold as scrap to asia

what a bugger eh ?

There is quite a bit in hangar 17 at JFK. You can even have a look round if you like

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/09/10/nyregion/20080911-hangar-panos.html?ref=kennedyinternationalairportnyc

There was a very nice programme on Discovery last night where they tested a steel beam under heat stress from aviation fuel to see what happened. It lasted five seconds before twisting and buckling under the stress.

They did a smashing experiment with thermite too, nothing much happened as it lacks the energy of aviation fuel. It did fizzle like a sparkler though.

[Zingari]

There is quite a bit in hangar 17 at JFK. You can even have a look round if you like

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/09/10/nyregion/20080911-hangar-panos.html?ref=kennedyinternationalairportnyc

There was a very nice programme on Discovery last night where they tested a steel beam under heat stress from aviation fuel to see what happened. It lasted five seconds before twisting and buckling under the stress.

They did a smashing experiment with thermite too, nothing much happened as it lacks the energy of aviation fuel. It did fizzle like a sparkler though.

those beams look nicely cut into sections , so presumably that is not how they were originally found at ground zero

its a bit like looking at a body for clues to death after it's been embalmed

twisting and buckling i can understand , symmetrical collapse is another thing altogether .

What were they supposed to do with a fck ton of steel they didn't need? Keep it? Just in case some people thought it might be useful to support a conspiracy theory further down the line?

it's a crime scene , so yes