Toulouse killer dead

[NeilyBoy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17473207

I happened to be watching CNN as the final siege unfolded and I'm not sure how likely the official story in that BBC article sounds given that CNN showed footage from outside the building which, although you couldn't see anything, consisted of prolonged gunfire for a couple of minutes.

I'm finding it hard to link that footage to the apparent chain of events reported by the French police. Perhaps I'm being naive but I don't see how a man can injure 3 cops in a firefight whilst not a single member of the siege team managed to hit him before he jumped out of a window to his death. Or perhaps the French cops really are as incompetent as their public claim. The CNN figure that there were over 300 officers employed in the stand-off seems to corroborate that opinion mind. 300+ for one man? Really?

Of course I'm glad this man's finally been 'caught', but until more facts on what really happened come in the jury's still out on whether justice was done. Right now I'm of the opinion that this smacks of an execution but hopefully the evidence will prove me wrong.

[Jon the Hat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-17473207

I happened to be watching CNN as the final siege unfolded and I'm not sure how likely the official story in that BBC article sounds given that CNN showed footage from outside the building which, although you couldn't see anything, consisted of prolonged gunfire for a couple of minutes.

I'm finding it hard to link that footage to the apparent chain of events reported by the French police. Perhaps I'm being naive but I don't see how a man can injure 3 cops in a firefight whilst not a single member of the siege team managed to hit him before he jumped out of a window to his death. Or perhaps the French cops really are as incompetent as their public claim. The CNN figure that there were over 300 officers employed in the stand-off seems to corroborate that opinion mind. 300+ for one man? Really?

Of course I'm glad this man's finally been 'caught', but until more facts on what really happened come in the jury's still out on whether justice was done. Right now I'm of the opinion that this smacks of an execution but hopefully the evidence will prove me wrong.

Yeah **** it, just send a couple of guys round. How much harm can one bloke with a lot of guns really do? Oh wait. I bet there are a load of people in Norway who strongly disagree with you.

[Steven]

How very convenient for Sarkozy. Blaming the Arab will do his election hopes no harm in Chauvinistic France.

[Guest]

How very convenient for Sarkozy. Blaming the Arab will do his election hopes no harm in Chauvinistic France.

Sad but true.

great timing for the diminutive man.

He's also enacted a couple of anti-foreigner laws to bolster his flagging campaign

[BoneDog]

Something fishy about all this. I've not looked into it properly yet to verify, but I've heard that the guy was unemployed, rented two flats, had money, was planting bombs in Afghanistan, had been imprisoned in Afghanistan by the US and was known to intelligence agencies and other shady stuff. Seems like a typical 'asset' to me and is probably not the real murderer of those people in France.

I've also heard that he doesn't match the physical description given by witnesses at the cashpoint or the school.

The school killings seemed to be a cold blooded assassination of specific targets to send a warning to somebody, and not random. As for the camera on his chest (that a witness identified the model of), that was more likely not used for recording, but for someone else to watch live and tell him through an earpiece or headphone when he has the correct victims in his sights. This kind of thing happens quite regular in zionist/Jewish circles where there is a war going on between factions (sending warnings in the most cold blooded way) and the killings at the school were proffesional hits if you ask me.

The whole anti-semetic reports were wrong because he'd already killed three soldiers who were not Jewish at all. As for him supposedly saying "I did it to avenge the Palestinian children", I think that is also baloney. What kind of person who is upset at children being killed decides to grab other young children by the hair and shoot them in the head? The cold bloodedness of that is ****ing astonishing and whoever did that is psychopathic and I fear that the real criminal is still free and will continue working around the world for whoever he works for.

Edit: Another thing I've heard that I don't know if it is true or not - remember the Afghan prison break out where quite a large number of 'Al Qaeda' escaped one night last year - I heard he was one of the escapees. Not sure about the truth in that though (but if it happens to be true then I am sure that he was working for high powered people who are not Al Q).

[Jon the Hat]

He looked like a delusional criminal murderer to me.

[Guest]

although I live over here and have sort of followed it a bit, I must admit that I haven't followed it that closely.

When I heard the description initially - guy with tattoo under his eye - I thought they'd get him pretty quickly. Photo I saw today had no tattoo under his eye. Confused - I should be!

[NeilyBoy]

Yeah **** it, just send a couple of guys round. How much harm can one bloke with a lot of guns really do? Oh wait. I bet there are a load of people in Norway who strongly disagree with you.

You normally come across as a rather thoughtful person, not someone who would bring up an unrelated tragedy to make your point.

Just to be clear: You think that over 300 men (most of whom have guns) sounds like a necessary amount to deal with a single target isolated to a building on a street which has been evacuated of its residents? Obviously not all of them were siege personnel but were rather there to secure the perimeter or use the surveillance equipment, but it's still far too many men than the job required.

[BoneDog]

He looked like a delusional criminal murderer to me.

He probably was a murderer, especially if the reports of him being an 'asset' are true, and the reports of him bombing in Afghanistan are true, but is he the man who killed these people in France? I thought we were looking for a neo-nazi with a tattoed face a few days ago. Assets often get dumped, dropped in it and sacrificed to save one of the agencies 'better' men or women.

I'm not saying he isn't the guy but there have been so many conflicting reports I'm not believing anything yet. Elements of the French authorities/agencies are not too trustworthy just like the rest of them.

[Jon the Hat]

You normally come across as a rather thoughtful person, not someone who would bring up an unrelated tragedy to make your point.

Just to be clear: You think that over 300 men (most of whom have guns) sounds like a necessary amount to deal with a single target isolated to a building on a street which has been evacuated of its residents? Obviously not all of them were siege personnel but were rather there to secure the perimeter or use the surveillance equipment, but it's still far too many men than the job required.

The point is, with the level of attention this has drawn, they would rather have more resources than needed, not less. And as you rightly say, lots of those were probably trafffic cops, media liasions etc.

[breadandcheese]

Something fishy about all this. I've not looked into it properly yet to verify, but I've heard that the guy was unemployed, rented two flats, had money, was planting bombs in Afghanistan, had been imprisoned in Afghanistan by the US and was known to intelligence agencies and other shady stuff. Seems like a typical 'asset' to me and is probably not the real murderer of those people in France.

I've also heard that he doesn't match the physical description given by witnesses at the cashpoint or the school.

The school killings seemed to be a cold blooded assassination of specific targets to send a warning to somebody, and not random. As for the camera on his chest (that a witness identified the model of), that was more likely not used for recording, but for someone else to watch live and tell him through an earpiece or headphone when he has the correct victims in his sights. This kind of thing happens quite regular in zionist/Jewish circles where there is a war going on between factions (sending warnings in the most cold blooded way) and the killings at the school were proffesional hits if you ask me.

The whole anti-semetic reports were wrong because he'd already killed three soldiers who were not Jewish at all. As for him supposedly saying "I did it to avenge the Palestinian children", I think that is also baloney. What kind of person who is upset at children being killed decides to grab other young children by the hair and shoot them in the head? The cold bloodedness of that is ****ing astonishing and whoever did that is psychopathic and I fear that the real criminal is still free and will continue working around the world for whoever he works for.

Edit: Another thing I've heard that I don't know if it is true or not - remember the Afghan prison break out where quite a large number of 'Al Qaeda' escaped one night last year - I heard he was one of the escapees. Not sure about the truth in that though (but if it happens to be true then I am sure that he was working for high powered people who are not Al Q).

Seriously?!? Do the decent thing on this one and not spread b*ll*cks.

The Toulouse man phoned reporters and owned up to murdering the soldiers and Jewish children + teacher. Explosives and guns were found in his and his brother's car. The Toulouse guy had made contact with a moped shop about spray-painting his vehicle to cover his tracks. What more do you need?

The whole anti-semitic thing is not wrong. This man deliberately targeted a Jewish school. By your logic, Nick Griffin is not islamophobic because he hates Jews too.

As for your comment "This kind of thing happens quite regular in zionist/Jewish circles", when describing the murder of Jewish school children by a trained assassin being given direction by some shadowy figure, I would ask you to curb that anti-semitism. Before you claim that you're not anti-semitic, have a re-read of your sentence. you are implying that a group of people by ethnicity/religion (Jews) are shadowy, sinister people who engage in the murder of school children at point blank range on a regular basis.

[BoneDog]

Just to be clear: You think that over 300 men (most of whom have guns) sounds like a necessary amount to deal with a single target isolated to a building on a street which has been evacuated of its residents? Obviously not all of them were siege personnel but were rather there to secure the perimeter or use the surveillance equipment, but it's still far too many men than the job required.

They could have got him with two men easily. I think that the 300 were there more to stop any of the public seeing or hearing anything at all.

If they wanted they could have put him to sleep with gas through the letterbox or something similar. Dodgy as if you ask me.

[breadandcheese]

although I live over here and have sort of followed it a bit, I must admit that I haven't followed it that closely.

When I heard the description initially - guy with tattoo under his eye - I thought they'd get him pretty quickly. Photo I saw today had no tattoo under his eye. Confused - I should be!

Eye witness testimony is not always reliable

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm

[Guesty]

You normally come across as a rather thoughtful person, not someone who would bring up an unrelated tragedy to make your point.

Just to be clear: You think that over 300 men (most of whom have guns) sounds like a necessary amount to deal with a single target isolated to a building on a street which has been evacuated of its residents? Obviously not all of them were siege personnel but were rather there to secure the perimeter or use the surveillance equipment, but it's still far too many men than the job required.

To be fair they had to consider lots of variables; maybe he wasn't working alone and other things. 300 doesn't sound too much to me, it is a lot but they couldn't have anything go wrong, considering the media there they had to cover themselves.

Bloke was probably just a nutter. Anyone with any common sense would have moved somewhere else to start killing considering all the attention he'd brought on himself (of course he wanted that, but he could have had more if they didn't know who he was at the start). Considering his history it does seem rather odd that he wasn't suspect number 1 from the beginning. I didn't think there was much chance of him coming out of there alive. Not a conspiracy, but if he'd talked and it had been obvious the police should have known about him from the very start it would make everyone look bad from the police to Sarkozy and could mess up his re-election. Now they're safe to leave out little bits if they need to.

For example, maybe they knew it was him after the soldiers and were watching him but lost him, then he killed the kids. That makes them look very bad. Sounds like a cock up from the start.

Plus, its not like he had any hostages, why not just wait him out, they didn't really need to go in just yet. Looks like he didn't have the balls to kill himself and it was obvious he wanted them to do it, so why oblige him, unless thats what they wanted.

[Steven]

Sarkozy making political capital.

"France will not tolerate forced recruitment or ideological indoctrination on its soil," Mr Sarkozy said in his televised address.

• 
  1244:
  Mr Sarkozy also said he ordered an investigation into whether radical Islamist ideologies are being propagated in France's prisons. "Our prisons should not become breeding grounds for indoctrination."
  
• 
  1231:
  Sarkozy: The French Republic will "implacably defend its values", and people travelling abroad to be "indoctrinated" by terror groups would be punished.
  
• 
  1228:
  President Sarkozy also said the government would act to punish anyone who "goes online to express sympathy for terrorists".
  
• 
  1227:
  President Sarkozy tells the French nation it was necessary to kill Mohammed Merah because, he said "we've had enough dead as it is"
  

[Guest]

Eye witness testimony is not always reliable

http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/4177082.stm

Agreed. but that doesn't stop my confusion.

[BoneDog]

Seriously?!? Do the decent thing on this one and not spread b*ll*cks.

The Toulouse man phoned reporters and owned up to murdering the soldiers and Jewish children + teacher. Explosives and guns were found in his and his brother's car. The Toulouse guy had made contact with a moped shop about spray-painting his vehicle to cover his tracks. What more do you need?

The whole anti-semitic thing is not wrong. This man deliberately targeted a Jewish school. By your logic, Nick Griffin is not islamophobic because he hates Jews too.

Are you saying that is strong evidence? That he phoned a garage to talk about spraying a vehicle that was on the most wanted list around the world? Seriously, who would do that after committing the biggest crime of the year? Explosives were found in his car? Who put them there? I could go and put a sack of cow dung in somebodies car boot on my street tonight if I wanted to, and they'd never know I'd been in their car until they opened the boot. That is not evidence at all.

Yes the man targeted a Jewish school, he also targeted 4 random soldiers, I'm just saying that it is not against the realms of possibilty that it was a zionist who did this. The story hasn't added up from the start to alot of people. There is evidence of zionists putting hits on other Jew families in recent years, some whom they call 'doves' and some who are more extreme. Are you saying that extreme zionists don't exist and that they are not a big problem?

As for your comment "This kind of thing happens quite regular in zionist/Jewish circles", when describing the murder of Jewish school children by a trained assassin being given direction by some shadowy figure, I would ask you to curb that anti-semitism. Before you claim that you're not anti-semitic, have a re-read of your sentence. you are implying that a group of people by ethnicity/religion (Jews) are shadowy, sinister people who engage in the murder of school children at point blank range on a regular basis.

I'm not saying anything bad against Jews. When I said "zionist/Jews" I was referring to zionists killing Jews. It's no secret. I'm not implying Jews are sinister, just that some zionists are (some Jewish and Christian zionists).

I can point you to some cases of zionists killing school children (whilst in school) with sniper rifles and other weapons if you want. That is deliberate murder and not just war accidents, so don't try and make out they don't do it.

The thing I'll take back is saying "quite regular". It might not be regular but it does happen.

Perhaps this arguement should be taken to another thread if it is to continue.

[BoneDog]

Eye witness testimony is not always reliable

http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/4177082.stm

I'm sure that most people would believe the eyewitness at the scene at the cashpoint over the mainstream media or president of France any day of the week.

[Webbo]

How very convenient for Sarkozy. Blaming the Arab will do his election hopes no harm in Chauvinistic France.

If " The Arab" did it then that's not an unreasonable stance to take, surely?

[NeilyBoy]

To be fair they had to consider lots of variables; maybe he wasn't working alone and other things. 300 doesn't sound too much to me, it is a lot but they couldn't have anything go wrong, considering the media there they had to cover themselves.

They did know he was alone (CNN said they had infra-red imagery) so that wasn't something they were considering. For one man in a confined space, the infiltration team can't have been much more than 20 people (and I think I'm being generous there) - so what are the 280+ remaining up to? Perimeter control, judging by the look of the street, should've been a job for 2 conveniently placed vans (to stop street access) and a team of 10 coppers. Let's add a generous 20 for the other side of the building which I couldn't see and given the high profile of the case you can understand that number being doubled to deal with the crowd of journos. I've used 80 men and already think I'm overdoing it a bit. I now have 220+ men to carry out surveillance and media control. That can't be considered reasonable use of resources can it?

Je sens un rat as they say...

[breadandcheese]

I'm sure that most people would believe the eyewitness at the scene at the cashpoint over the mainstream media or president of France any day of the week.

I'm sure that most people would believe the word of Mohammed Merah who admitted the murders.

[Guest]

If " The Arab" did it then that's not an unreasonable stance to take, surely?

That's disingenuous.

Sarkozy is using the situation for political gain (as he is losing in the polls) and he is stirring up Nationalistic/Racist feeling.

[Guest]

I'm sure that most people would believe the word of Mohammed Merah who admitted the murders.

Or he could be saying that to gain personal notoriety. I'm sure the facts will come out soon and it seems most likely that he was the murderer but I think there is still a significant doubt in many minds over here. He wasn't even the first guy that the French authorities pulled in for it.

[breadandcheese]

Are you saying that is strong evidence? That he phoned a garage to talk about spraying a vehicle that was on the most wanted list around the world? Seriously, who would do that after committing the biggest crime of the year? Explosives were found in his car? Who put them there? I could go and put a sack of cow dung in somebodies car boot on my street tonight if I wanted to, and they'd never know I'd been in their car until they opened the boot. That is not evidence at all.

Yes the man targeted a Jewish school, he also targeted 4 random soldiers, I'm just saying that it is not against the realms of possibilty that it was a zionist who did this. The story hasn't added up from the start to alot of people. There is evidence of zionists putting hits on other Jew families in recent years, some whom they call 'doves' and some who are more extreme. Are you saying that extreme zionists don't exist and that they are not a big problem?

I'm not saying anything bad against Jews. When I said "zionist/Jews" I was referring to zionists killing Jews. It's no secret. I'm not implying Jews are sinister, just that some zionists are (Jewish and Christian zionists).

I can point you to some cases of zionists killing school children (whilst in school) with sniper rifles and other weapons if you want. That is deliberate murder and not just war accidents, so don't try and make out they don't do it.

The thing I'll take back is saying "quite regular". It might not be regular but it does happen.

Perhaps this arguement should be taken to another thread if it is to continue.

The man admitted killing the soldiers and Jewish school children. I don't know what more you need.

Please define what a Zionist is.

[Webbo]

That's disingenuous.

Sarkozy is using the situation for political gain (as he is losing in the polls) and he is stirring up Nationalistic/Racist feeling.

If you say "arabs" as a collective noun then you have a point. If you say "the arab" meaning the person who did it who was an arab then no.