'Leicester City: A Defence in Numbers'

[Raw Dykes]

Hi SharpeFox

Great article confirming what most without blinkers already knew. Unfortunately for you, though, you have posted your link on the Pro Pearson board, where he does very little wrong and just needs to be given more time (unspecified amount ranging from 12 games next season through to the whole season through to a couple of even beyond that!!)

Here are some 'rules' to help you through, should you ever be brave/daft enough to post here again;

Stats are OK to support the improvement in the team under NP's stewardship (difficult now as there are none really) but are deemed very dodgy if they don't praise him. (he has improved points per game etc etc)

Any mention of Sven or any signing he made that is universally disliked (Sven was BAD you understand) is shouted down with howling derision, except where they have been elevated to 'great' status (Kasper/Nugent/Konch,until last week) - any criticism of these players is also WRONG

Suggesting that the owners of the club might be naive = WRONG

No mention of last seasons turnaround from relegation fodder into play off hopefuls is allowed - it suggests Sven tendencies =WRONG

You have to accept that we gave our last manager A YEAR and that the 13 games after which he was fired this season were part of THAT YEAR.

Signing players for more than £300,000 is WRONG (unless Nige pays about 10 times that for WAGGY, who is GREAT)

Hope these pointers help you - please note that you broke several golden Foxestalk rules when you said that Mills (Sven signing, waste of money, disloyal player) and Bamba(Sven signing, too erratic, takes risks) were better in defence than Morgan (Nige signing, therefore quite possibly the buy of the century) and - and this is the biggy, unforgivable one) Nige has poor management skills - how could you, he just needs more time................

Thank you. That post really, genuinely cheered me up. Wasn't expecting that at all.

[seenitall]

Glad to be of service - difficult to find an answer to it though isn't it,so just a weedy little patronising post rather than any substance..........

[Babylon]

Glad to be of service - difficult to find an answer to it though isn't it,so just a weedy little patronising post rather than any substance..........

Coming from the man whose specialty is ignoring what people write, and when he hasn't got an answer reverts to his usual "Pearson Bummer" quote.

If you don't like the board, leave. Nobody is making you stay, there is a board called Bentleys roof full of people like you, go and knock yourself out on there.

[seenitall]

I like it here Babylon, my mission is to stay until I am proved right - could be a week or 2, could be October but whenever it is, I don't believe NP can pull off promotion to the Premier league for Leicester City - I wish we could change him now, because that would give us a shot at next season, but I am a City fan and used to disappointment - one day you'll agree with me

[Guest]

Article was an interesting read. Not really sure why people have to derail any discussion.

so what if seenitall has an agenda or Cap Shrap or Babylon. We're all just putting our views out there. Ignore them if they get repetitive.

The smaller the sample the less reliable the results.

The opposition obviously affects the stats and we mustn't forget that being a defender does not only entail stopping the opposition scoring in modern football. Mills is criticised for his distribution etc.. The stats do support my friend Sol though and he gives you something going forward too. They also seem a little damning for SSL but I never really understood the sudden and overwhelming support he got.

In short there's not a great difference between our defenders. I quite like all of them - our problem is the defensive link between midfield and the defenders IMO.

[Babylon]

I like it here Babylon, my mission is to stay until I am proved right - could be a week or 2, could be October but whenever it is, I don't believe NP can pull off promotion to the Premier league for Leicester City - I wish we could change him now, because that would give us a shot at next season, but I am a City fan and used to disappointment - one day you'll agree with me

Maybe I will, but how many times do you need it repeating that most people just wish for him to have more time so they can see one way or another with no doubts. Statistically you probably will be correct, because the majority of managers always fail in getting promotion. 21 of 24 managers in this league will do so this year.

[_Fatboyslow_]

Sounds like a defence case for Mills. For give the pun. I agree that the main issue is conceding goals but belive this comes from the weakness we have in midfield, it would be intresting to see what defence pairings achieve with the different midfield setups. But the real issue is the amount of goals conceded surely we should be looking at .6 a game max

[seenitall]

Maybe I will, but how many times do you need it repeating that most people just wish for him to have more time so they can see one way or another with no doubts. Statistically you probably will be correct, because the majority of managers always fail in getting promotion. 21 of 24 managers in this league will do so this year.

Alright, you've convinced me - poor old you and Emilio having to read stuff on a message board you don't like or agree with - you should ban any threads that don't say what you want them to (Oh wait, you already did, whatever happened to the Pearson Out thread??). Will you let me know when it is OK to be unhappy with things again - I lost my Foxestalk barometer you see and have no idea whether we are good or bad anymore, or which players are supposed to be good and which ones I have to dislike.

[Babylon]

Alright, you've convinced me - poor old you and Emilio having to read stuff on a message board you don't like or agree with - you should ban any threads that don't say what you want them to (Oh wait, you already did, whatever happened to the Pearson Out thread??). Will you let me know when it is OK to be unhappy with things again - I lost my Foxestalk barometer you see and have no idea whether we are good or bad anymore, or which players are supposed to be good and which ones I have to dislike.

Sorry, where have I said you can't post your thoughts? No matter what utter tripe I think you write it has never been censored, you get challenged on it and nothing more. It seems to me you are the one who wants to be able to voice your opinion unopposed. You're the one who constantly reverts to calling people "Pearson Bummers" etc when they disagree with you.

As I already stated, don't like it leave. It's quite simple.

As for the Pearson out thread, I didn't even notice it had gone anywhere. You should perhaps ask whoever it was that removed it why they did so. Although, you and your friends seem to be quite capable of keyboard bashing in the other million threads on here about it.

[brockmyster]

Good article there highlighting what others and myself have been saying for a while that Mills is one of our better defenders, yet get shot down time and time again for even mentioning his name

[SharpeFox]

Shrapnel, I was starting to give you credit for making some - what I originally considered to be- reasonable points. But then the following happened, and all of that credit rapidly disintegrated.

Firstly your main problem with my article - as you have said plenty of times - was this:

To be honest I was disappointed that what started off as a quite promising look at statistics, then brought in conjecture and baseless rhetoric to turn an assessment in out defensive failings into an attack on NP...

and

It is hard to judge NP on his treatment of Mills, because we don't know what happened.

Fair enough, I thought. But, if you say it is hard to judge NP on his treatment of Mills, then by the same logic it must be hard to judge Mills on the situation because, as you say, we don't know what happened.

But then I read the following,

NP was looking at bringing Mills back, (he was on the bench at Brum) despite the argument, but Mills went on to further let him down and made his position at the club unworkable.

If Mills had taken being dropped like a man, used it as motivation to buck up his ideas and fight for his place then he would almost certainly have got back into the team and had a chance to prove his worth, especially after a few less than convincing performances from Morgan and SSL.

He didn't he spat his dummy out and deserves to be cast out, lets be honest we were hardly world beaters with him in the team, I would be interested to know Mills' stats vs the others under NP, the stats given by the OP, were of the whole season, but what we need to find is the bes defender under NP's style and formation.

If you state outright that we do not know what happened, how on earth can you say all of this? This is, therefore, all "conjecture and baseless rhetoric". I'm afraid you have condemned yourself by your own standards.

[seenitall]

Sorry, where have I said you can't post your thoughts? No matter what utter tripe I think you write it has never been censored, you get challenged on it and nothing more. It seems to me you are the one who wants to be able to voice your opinion unopposed. You're the one who constantly reverts to calling people "Pearson Bummers" etc when they disagree with you.

As I already stated, don't like it leave. It's quite simple.

As for the Pearson out thread, I didn't even notice it had gone anywhere. You should perhaps ask whoever it was that removed it why they did so. Although, you and your friends seem to be quite capable of keyboard bashing in the other million threads on here about it.

Spot the use of quotation marks whenever I use the term "Pearson bummer" It is a phrase used by others on here that amuses me, especially after being called a "Sven bummer' for months. What would you rather be Babylon, an "NB" or a "SB"?

[Guest]

I can sympathise but shouldn't Pearson be given the time and chance that Sven wasn't and should've been given? We "SBs" can be disappointed that Sven wasn't given until the end of this season but that doesn't mean we should want NP thrown out in a ridiculously short time too.

It is now proven that the change of manager was wrong. It could have been done now at the end of the season if we hadn't been promoted because evidently the change of manager hasn't got us promoted either.

Whoever is managing next season MUST have the full season to work their magic.

Sorry for moving it OT.

[Raw Dykes]

Glad to be of service - difficult to find an answer to it though isn't it,so just a weedy little patronising post rather than any substance..........

I really didn't intend for that to sound patronising. I could have sworn that you meant for your comment to be amusing from going so far over the top. It genuinely did make me laugh as I thought you had intended, and I did try to express that. Evidently, I didn't manage that. It really isn't difficult to find an answer, it's just a bit of a pain to respond to so many points I've already been over numerous times. i would have just left it, but now I feel obliged to tackle it.

Hi SharpeFox

Great article confirming what most without blinkers already knew. Unfortunately for you, though, you have posted your link on the Pro Pearson board, where he does very little wrong and just needs to be given more time (unspecified amount ranging from 12 games next season through to the whole season through to a couple of even beyond that!!)

Many of us on these boards feel that 5 months is not long enough to fairly judge a manager, especially seeing as the current manager is working with an inherited squad and getting the same out of them as the previous manager, who was the man responsible for putting said squad together.

Here are some 'rules' to help you through, should you ever be brave/daft enough to post here again;

Stats are OK to support the improvement in the team under NP's stewardship (difficult now as there are none really) but are deemed very dodgy if they don't praise him. (he has improved points per game etc etc)

People will bring up stats to prove others wrong when they attempt to claim the team is performing worse now than it was under the previous manager.

Any mention of Sven or any signing he made that is universally disliked (Sven was BAD you understand) is shouted down with howling derision, except where they have been elevated to 'great' status (Kasper/Nugent/Konch,until last week) - any criticism of these players is also WRONG

What does this even mean? All you've said about Sven's players is that some of them get slagged off, and some are overly praised and are criticism-proof. Yes, some players get criticised, and some are praised. Sometimes unfairly or without good reason. Your comment on Sven being universally disliked is utter horse shit. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly didn't dislike him in the slightest. In fact, I think there's a poll on here that shows the majority of us feel Sven was sacked too early, myself included.

http://www.foxestalk...anagerial-poll/

You seem to have this strange idea that anyone who defends Pearson must hate Sven. I resent this. Just because you see things so black and white, does not mean anyone else does.

Suggesting that the owners of the club might be naive = WRONG

Don't know where you've got this from. I thought it was generally agreed that the owners are businessmen and novices when it comes to being football club owners.

No mention of last seasons turnaround from relegation fodder into play off hopefuls is allowed - it suggests Sven tendencies =WRONG

I've already dealt with this. I think most of us were pro-Sven. Sven did put together a team last season that looked very impressive and stormed up the table. Let's just ignore the fact that the team choked when it mattered most, or that Sven was allowed to borrow as many PL players as the Football League rules would allow, shall we?

You have to accept that we gave our last manager A YEAR and that the 13 games after which he was fired this season were part of THAT YEAR.

I'm confused. I thought you just mentioned Sven turning last season around? Make your mind up! Do you want to pretend Sven wasn't in charge of last season's playoff hopefuls, or not?

Signing players for more than £300,000 is WRONG (unless Nige pays about 10 times that for WAGGY, who is GREAT)

This is ridiculous. Yes, some of us would much rather see the club invest in good young players with potential without breaking the bank, rather than spunking millions up the wall on overrated average Championship players.

Pearson signed Waghorn on loan! Sousa was in charge when he, or the owners in an effort to please the fans, paid through the nose for Waghorn's permanent signing. Get your facts straight. Oh, and Waghorn did play well under Pearson, but failed to impress under the two following managers. Funny, that...

Hope these pointers help you - please note that you broke several golden Foxestalk rules when you said that Mills (Sven signing, waste of money, disloyal player) and Bamba(Sven signing, too erratic, takes risks) were better in defence than Morgan (Nige signing, therefore quite possibly the buy of the century) and - and this is the biggy, unforgivable one) Nige has poor management skills - how could you, he just needs more time................

Most people agree that Mills, Bamba and Morgan have all more or less been as good as each other. One of those players cost about five times as much as the other two and clearly has an attitude problem. Could you back up the claim about Pearson's poor management skills? Weird that Danns, Beckford, Waghorn and St. Ledger have all performed much better for NP than they did for Sven, isn't it? Especially when you consider three of those were players Sven brought in.

[_Fatboyslow_]

Ok I just checked the thread title and yes another hijacked thread, you want debate mangers then use a NP thread, Millls ditto l

[Salieri]

I was impressed with the OP, very interesting statistics. Shame that when he was challenged with a counter argument he came across as a bit of a sanctimonious git.

Oh well.

[Raw Dykes]

Ok I just checked the thread title and yes another hijacked thread, you want debate mangers then use a NP thread, Millls ditto l

You can blame the OP for that! The thread title is misleading. The original comment is about the manager.

[Captain...]

Shrapnel, I was starting to give you credit for making some - what I originally considered to be- reasonable points. But then the following happened, and all of that credit rapidly disintegrated.

Firstly your main problem with my article - as you have said plenty of times - was this:

and

Fair enough, I thought. But, if you say it is hard to judge NP on his treatment of Mills, then by the same logic it must be hard to judge Mills on the situation because, as you say, we don't know what happened.

But then I read the following,

If you state outright that we do not know what happened, how on earth can you say all of this? This is, therefore, all "conjecture and baseless rhetoric". I'm afraid you have condemned yourself by your own standards.

Not really, there is a huge difference between saying Mills spat his dummy out when there is plenty of evidence to suggest that, I am not going to go through it all again as it has been discussed to death on here, and accusing NP of holding grudges, when 2 of the people you accused him of holding grudges against are regular starters.

We don't know the whole story with Mills, but I have seen enough evidence, from reports of him not celebrating at Norwich, and then being seen by a number outside the ground on his own sulking, reports from people who have spoken to him and people close to him and the club all seeming to say the same thing, Mills was dropped and he spat his dummy out. There is also NP's attitude in the press and the fact we had set up a loan deal with Leeds, and him celebrating Reading's goals against us. Despite all this, and Pearson's grudge holding, he still got in the squad for the Birmingham match, but then the reports of him not turning up to training and a reserve match. It doesn't look good for Mills, and he certainly comes out of it with a lot less credit than NP.

Maybe NP didn't handle it in the best way, and if people can provide any evidence to back that up then fair enough, but all the evidence, admittedly mostly secondary and tertiary, is that Mills threw his toys out the pram because he was dropped after an awful performance, and if Mills can't take criticism and being dropped and react positively to it, then he has no future with someone like NP as a manager.

[Captain...]

Following the Watford game our goals against in away games read

1, 0, 3, 3, 3, 5, 3, 1

And if Mills hadn't made his place in the team impossible then he would have certainly had the chance to prove his worth, which makes his reaction all the more frustrating, he could have sat on the bench for a few games, and then when we started conceding again take his chance.

Incidentally stat fans our home games goals against since Mills was dropped is this:

0,1,1,0,0,0

1 of which was a harshly awarded penalty, the other was Matt Fryatt, which is just inevitable when he plays us.

The only thing we can really conclude from all the stats we look at, and all the games we have seen is there is no one simple answer to the question: Why did we fail this season? Likewise there are no simple solutions, with Mills we were as inconsistent as we are now without him, but is it any coincidence that as soon as he is dropped we win consecutive league games for the first time in a year?

Yes of course it bloody is.

[SharpeFox]

I was impressed with the OP, very interesting statistics. Shame that when he was challenged with a counter argument he came across as a bit of a sanctimonious git.

Oh well.

It's a shame you feel that way but when I have someone question my journalistic integrity, accusing me of manipulating data and merely using this to support a predisposed agenda, then I will vehemently defend myself. If that came across as sanctimonious then so be it.

You can blame the OP for that! The thread title is misleading. The original comment is about the manager.

The thread title is not misleading. The original comment is not really about the manager. It is about the defence, individually and as pairings, and about the need for stability at the club (something which would clearly involve Nigel Pearson staying as manager). There is only a small aspect of the original comment that is about the manager. 167/1500 words to be precise.

[Raw Dykes]

The thread title is not misleading. The original comment is not really about the manager. It is about the defence, individually and as pairings, and about the need for stability at the club (something which would clearly involve Nigel Pearson staying as manager). There is only a small aspect of the original comment that is about the manager. 167/1500 words to be precise.

Ok, the thread title isn't really misleading. The title's about the defence, and the comment is about the defence and the manager. Perhaps you never set out to write about the manager at all initially, but the way the content was presented led me to believe that the whole thing was ultimately a stab at Pearson. As Captain Shrapnel pointed out, all the conjecture about dressing room bust ups could only have been included to lend weight to your argument that the manager holds grudges. Out of all the examples of falling outs you gave, only one, Matt Mills, is valid. The rest are quite clearly false.

As I said originally, I found the stats very interesting, but I was a bit disappointed to find out you used them, with some conjecture, to unfairly attack the manager with in the conclusion. I know this was only a small portion of the article, but I could spoil some good work with just two words, if I really wanted to.

[seenitall]

Told ya to leave NP alone

[fleckneymike]

And if Mills hadn't made his place in the team impossible then he would have certainly had the chance to prove his worth, which makes his reaction all the more frustrating, he could have sat on the bench for a few games, and then when we started conceding again take his chance.

Incidentally stat fans our home games goals against since Mills was dropped is this:

0,1,1,0,0,0

1 of which was a harshly awarded penalty, the other was Matt Fryatt, which is just inevitable when he plays us.

The only thing we can really conclude from all the stats we look at, and all the games we have seen is there is no one simple answer to the question: Why did we fail this season? Likewise there are no simple solutions, with Mills we were as inconsistent as we are now without him, but is it any coincidence that as soon as he is dropped we win consecutive league games for the first time in a year?

Yes of course it bloody is.

We have conceded more goals per game in his absence, whether that absence is due to his indiscipline on the pitch or perceived indiscipline by the manager is imaterial.

The five home games prior to Watford saw 2,0,0,2,1.

We have spent £1m on a defender who we didn't need and wound up marginally worse. Why?

[Captain...]

We have conceded more goals per game in his absence, whether that absence is due to his indiscipline on the pitch or perceived indiscipline by the manager is imaterial.

The five home games prior to Watford saw 2,0,0,2,1.

We have spent £1m on a defender who we didn't need and wound up marginally worse. Why?

I questioned Morgan's signing, we had 4 centre backs at the time, 3 experienced internationals and our club captain. Morgan didn't seem to be significantly better than any of them, and hasn't proved to be so. Tunchev was obivously an injury doubt, and SSL was on the transfer list, so I assumed it would be one of them to make way. I don't think we are any worse with Morgan ahead of Mills, from a playing point of view, statistics may prove marginally otherwise, but stats also prove our best partnership is Morgan and Bamba. Watching them play I can't ever think of wacthing Morgan and thinking Mills would have cleared that.

The thread title is not misleading. The original comment is not really about the manager. It is about the defence, individually and as pairings, and about the need for stability at the club (something which would clearly involve Nigel Pearson staying as manager). There is only a small aspect of the original comment that is about the manager. 167/1500 words to be precise.

The problem was your criticism of NP came at the end of your article, as a conclusion to the investigation into the statistics.

My conclusions are simple. Nigel Pearson needs to stop holding grudges when it is so detrimental to the team. Secondly, he desperately needs to insert some sort of stability into the centre of defence. But, of course, that’ll have to wait for next season now. That's if he’s still here...this is Leicester City after all.

The correct conclusion to take from the stats is that Mills is marginally better statistically over the whole season, (although I would like to see a comparison over NP's time only to have a fair reflection), and does his disciplinary record count against that. The question is, is his contribution to the team that significant that it is worth NP swallowing his pride, undermining his authority, risking upsetting the dressing room and the fans by bringing him back, and also then muddying the captaincy issue.

Then you can give your opinion on that, which I am assuming is yes, I don't think it is. I see no reason to think that if Mills hadn't fallen out with NP we would be in anything other than exactly the same position as we are now. Not in the playoffs.

[Webbo]

Reading this thread you'd think that all goals conceded are strictly the fault of the 2 CBs and nobody else.