Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 end of the day, everyone has different opinions, and your not going to change someones opinion no matter how far you argue your case 133728[/snapback] If people wana live in a mugabee style country under the rule of new labour, thats upto them, but i shall fight against it. If people dont mind a islamic jihad threat upon their lives, that too is upto them, but i will fight them off. I dont know why these people wana do bad all the time, cant we just live our lives and eventually see city win the premier...why do they feel the need to dictate how we live. 133732[/snapback]
Katy Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Lush, you are a moron who listens to half-truths and supposedly open left-wing protestors who are just as close-minded as the right of politics, whom they detest and denounce.Mr Blair, is not a terrorist in any shape or form. I may despise him, think him a useless prime minister, but his actions are in no way comparable to those of an Al-Qaeda leader. Yes, we bombed and invaded Iraq (wrongly or rightly). However, not once was a British or American soldier instructed to shoot and kill innocent civilians. No such order exists in the British or American military. Yes, by the very nature of war, civilians do get hurt or killed, however, it is not the military's aim to deliberately target and kill them. Indeed, any good commader does his utmost to protect the lives of innnocents. Compare this to today's outrage. The sole purpose of such explosive devices was to target innocent civilians. The bombers were not targetting military positions or bases. No, their express intention was to kill as many people as possible. Remember, a suicide bomber walks onto a bus, looks around, looks the people on the bus in the eye and detonates. This is in no way comparable to a British soldier in a firefight. Yes Lush, there are many terrorist groups in the world today. You named the IRA and the anti-globalists, both of whom I despise. However, at least these two groups have some form of respect for human life. The IRA, however, violent, did not detonate bombs to kill. They detonated bombs to cause destruction and chaos with the cost implications this would have to the economy. It was never their intention to kill innocent people. That is the difference. There is no justification for today, nor no comparison with Tony Blair and our armed forces. The people who commited today's atrocity are evil and need to be rooted out. P.s. ID cards are not the answer. The September 11th bombers all hard the correct ID cards, yet they were able to commit their heinous crimes. I would hope that ID cards are not justified on the back of today's tragedy. 133737[/snapback] Very well put and to add to that while in no way I condone the IRA in any shape or form but they do warn beforehand in the form of codes. Al Queda go all out to kill as well as to cause disruption. Its truly sickening and worrying what has happened today.
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 but where does the line end at protection and start at dictating? Let's say you live next to an Al-quieda terrosist but you know nothing about it. It's such things as the surveillance, satellites etc that allow you and the rest of the country to live the lives we do. So much goes on that we do not know about fr instance the number of cases still going through court of foiled terrorist plots. If current techniques were not here, this act of today would be happening a lot more frequently and would have happened long before today. It reaches a point where there is nothing more you can do! It's hard to accept it, but unless your going to close all ports, airports and the channel tunnel on top of having a huge forcefield surrounding Britain there will be some way this sort of thing can happen. On the other hand, ID cards are little incentives to make the government portray their desire to do as much as they can, it will nevr be a closed matter, but can become less likely. I know i would rather be sent the odd 3rd party letter through the post than have some heartless and cowardly terrorist walk on the same street as me because some people believe this will all just go away. Personally i think this is what got is into it, the hypocritical retards that blindly stood against Blair in his actions against Osama and Saddam because they were too busy with their head up their arse believe that all people are nice. Well heres reality for you all, this is what they can and WILL do! Oil excuses or whatever, these people are still a threat and i have full heartedly backed the movement in Iraq as an attempt to secure safety. I question the manner in approach of which the UK and USA took, however their reasoning was clear. It's quite sickening to see how people now u-turn into wanting revenge just because they are now directly effected, we've been at risk for a long time but as per usual, the cowards of today have waited for something to happen before believing it. Well here's your proof. Only collective unity as a country can prevent this, but some seem more bothered about argueing against their own Government than seeing sense to protect thier people.
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 but where does the line end at protection and start at dictating?Let's say you live next to an Al-quieda terrosist but you know nothing about it. It's such things as the surveillance, satellites etc that allow you and the rest of the country to live the lives we do. So much goes on that we do not know about fr instance the number of cases still going through court of foiled terrorist plots. If current techniques were not here, this act of today would be happening a lot more frequently and would have happened long before today. It reaches a point where there is nothing more you can do! It's hard to accept it, but unless your going to close all ports, airports and the channel tunnel on top of having a huge forcefield surrounding Britain there will be some way this sort of thing can happen. On the other hand, ID cards are little incentives to make the government portray their desire to do as much as they can, it will nevr be a closed matter, but can become less likely. I know i would rather be sent the odd 3rd party letter through the post than have some heartless and cowardly terrorist walk on the same street as me because some people believe this will all just go away. Personally i think this is what got is into it, the hypocritical retards that blindly stood against Blair in his actions against Osama and Saddam because they were too busy with their head up their arse believe that all people are nice. Well heres reality for you all, this is what they can and WILL do! Oil excuses or whatever, these people are still a threat and i have full heartedly backed the movement in Iraq as an attempt to secure safety. I question the manner in approach of which the UK and USA took, however their reasoning was clear. It's quite sickening to see how people now u-turn into wanting revenge just because they are now directly effected, we've been at risk for a long time but as per usual, the cowards of today have waited for something to happen before believing it. Well here's your proof. Only collective unity as a country can prevent this, but some seem more bothered about argueing against their own Government than seeing sense to protect thier people. 133755[/snapback] well said
BartonFox Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Lush, you are a moron who listens to half-truths and supposedly open left-wing protestors who are just as close-minded as the right of politics, whom they detest and denounce.Mr Blair, is not a terrorist in any shape or form. I may despise him, think him a useless prime minister, but his actions are in no way comparable to those of an Al-Qaeda leader. Yes, we bombed and invaded Iraq (wrongly or rightly). However, not once was a British or American soldier instructed to shoot and kill innocent civilians. No such order exists in the British or American military. Yes, by the very nature of war, civilians do get hurt or killed, however, it is not the military's aim to deliberately target and kill them. Indeed, any good commader does his utmost to protect the lives of innnocents. Compare this to today's outrage. The sole purpose of such explosive devices was to target innocent civilians. The bombers were not targetting military positions or bases. No, their express intention was to kill as many people as possible. Remember, a suicide bomber walks onto a bus, looks around, looks the people on the bus in the eye and detonates. This is in no way comparable to a British soldier in a firefight. Yes Lush, there are many terrorist groups in the world today. You named the IRA and the anti-globalists, both of whom I despise. However, at least these two groups have some form of respect for human life. The IRA, however, violent, did not detonate bombs to kill. They detonated bombs to cause destruction and chaos with the cost implications this would have to the economy. It was never their intention to kill innocent people. That is the difference. There is no justification for today, nor no comparison with Tony Blair and our armed forces. The people who commited today's atrocity are evil and need to be rooted out. P.s. ID cards are not the answer. The September 11th bombers all hard the correct ID cards, yet they were able to commit their heinous crimes. I would hope that ID cards are not justified on the back of today's tragedy. 133737[/snapback] Really? Are you taking the piss? Ask the families in Warrington and Omagh, setting off bombs in busy shopping areas is a clear indication of wanting to kill people. Pub bombs in Guildford and Birmingham, Conservative Party Confrenece in Brighton, all acts to cause collateral damage? eh?
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Personally i think this is what got is into it, the hypocritical retards that blindly stood against Blair in his actions against Osama and Saddam because they were too busy with their head up their arse believe that all people are nice. Well heres reality for you all, this is what they can and WILL do! Oil excuses or whatever, these people are still a threat and i have full heartedly backed the movement in Iraq as an attempt to secure safety. I question the manner in approach of which the UK and USA took, however their reasoning was clear. It's quite sickening to see how people now u-turn into wanting revenge just because they are now directly effected, we've been at risk for a long time but as per usual, the cowards of today have waited for something to happen before believing it. Well here's your proof. Only collective unity as a country can prevent this, but some seem more bothered about argueing against their own Government than seeing sense to protect thier people. 133755[/snapback] I feel that quite frankly I could do without the protection that Blair offers.
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Personally i think this is what got is into it, the hypocritical retards that blindly stood against Blair in his actions against Osama and Saddam because they were too busy with their head up their arse believe that all people are nice. Well heres reality for you all, this is what they can and WILL do! Oil excuses or whatever, these people are still a threat and i have full heartedly backed the movement in Iraq as an attempt to secure safety. I question the manner in approach of which the UK and USA took, however their reasoning was clear. It's quite sickening to see how people now u-turn into wanting revenge just because they are now directly effected, we've been at risk for a long time but as per usual, the cowards of today have waited for something to happen before believing it. Well here's your proof. Only collective unity as a country can prevent this, but some seem more bothered about argueing against their own Government than seeing sense to protect thier people. 133755[/snapback] I feel that quite frankly I could do without the protection that Blair offers. 133766[/snapback] why? how many times has something like this occured recently? it was inevitable!
breadandcheese Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Really? Are you taking the piss? Ask the families in Warrington and Omagh, setting off bombs in busy shopping areas is a clear indication of wanting to kill people. Pub bombs in Guildford and Birmingham, Conservative Party Confrenece in Brighton, all acts to cause collateral damage? eh? 133765[/snapback] The IRA were/still are despicable. Make no mistake, but their aim was not to kill as many people as possible. They aimed to scare, they aimed to cause damage, aimed to cost the economy and businesses millions, but not to kill thousands of people. Compare the different ideologies. Al Qaeda - a worldwide state of their twisted distorted version of islam, with the necessary destruction of all those infidels who are not muslim. i.e. kill you and I because of the very fact that we live, breath and were born. IRA - attempt to "liberate" Northern Ireland through criminal acts i.e. not attempt to kill as many people as possible who did not share their beliefs. Yes, make no mistake, they are criminals, operating today as one of the largest criminal syndicates, selling drugs, weapons, laundering money, etc, but they at least phoned some sort of warning. The point I am putting across is that this is a very different terrorist threat than that faced before. I am not trying to paint the IRA in a rosy picture. Far from it. They are despicable.
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Personally i think this is what got is into it, the hypocritical retards that blindly stood against Blair in his actions against Osama and Saddam because they were too busy with their head up their arse believe that all people are nice. Well heres reality for you all, this is what they can and WILL do! Oil excuses or whatever, these people are still a threat and i have full heartedly backed the movement in Iraq as an attempt to secure safety. I question the manner in approach of which the UK and USA took, however their reasoning was clear. It's quite sickening to see how people now u-turn into wanting revenge just because they are now directly effected, we've been at risk for a long time but as per usual, the cowards of today have waited for something to happen before believing it. Well here's your proof. Only collective unity as a country can prevent this, but some seem more bothered about argueing against their own Government than seeing sense to protect thier people. 133755[/snapback] I feel that quite frankly I could do without the protection that Blair offers. 133766[/snapback] why? how many times has something like this occured recently? it was inevitable! 133773[/snapback] Blair does not offer protection as today's events have proven. He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. I cannot understand why people want more of the same or more of the same to the extreme as this current way in which the Government conducts itself is failing.
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!!
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 Lush, you are a moron who listens to half-truths and supposedly open left-wing protestors who are just as close-minded as the right of politics, whom they detest and denounce.Mr Blair, is not a terrorist in any shape or form. I may despise him, think him a useless prime minister, but his actions are in no way comparable to those of an Al-Qaeda leader. Yes, we bombed and invaded Iraq (wrongly or rightly). However, not once was a British or American soldier instructed to shoot and kill innocent civilians. No such order exists in the British or American military. The sole purpose of such explosive devices was to target innocent civilians. The bombers were not targetting military positions or bases. No, their express intention was to kill as many people as possible. Remember, a suicide bomber walks onto a bus, looks around, looks the people on the bus in the eye and detonates. This is in no way comparable to a British soldier in a firefight. Yes Lush, there are many terrorist groups in the world today. You named the IRA and the anti-globalists, both of whom I despise. However, at least these two groups have some form of respect for human life. The IRA, however, violent, did not detonate bombs to kill. They detonated bombs to cause destruction and chaos with the cost implications this would have to the economy. It was never their intention to kill innocent people. That is the difference. There is no justification for today, nor no comparison with Tony Blair and our armed forces. The people who commited today's atrocity are evil and need to be rooted out. P.s. ID cards are not the answer. The September 11th bombers all hard the correct ID cards, yet they were able to commit their heinous crimes. I would hope that ID cards are not justified on the back of today's tragedy. 133737[/snapback] May i reply be quoting you, `you are a moron`. breadandcheese. `half truths`? `Yes, we bombed and invaded Iraq`. Your absolutely correct though, not one british soilder was instructed to kill an innocent iraqi. You get my full attention to the way in which you NEVER read between the lines, you are a lovely puppet for blair. blair would be sacked for instructing such things, dont be so stupid mate. What he can do, is instruct the killings of innocence using words that say it, but not literally. He IS a terrorist. The sole purpose of blairs war, is to gain iraqi oil, and that if anyone stands in his way, there to be dealt with upto and including death. Dont give me this military rollax that terrorism is a text book concept. Killing an opposition is terrorism, full stop. blair is murdering innocent people over oil that generates money, respect for life, naaaaa blair is also terrorising free speech, he is THE most evil human in the uk today. I have to disagree, the ira have bombed places with vast amounts of people with-in the area. Agreed they need to be rooted out, so does blair. blair knows exactly how to defeat these islamic terrorists, but instead of doing so, he encourages their ideology in our society. he is enemy numero uno. Shake ya hands on your i.d card thoughts.
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] exactly, the only people that should care are those with something to hide!
Dunc Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 "these people are still a threat and i have full heartedly backed the movement in Iraq as an attempt to secure safety" And which iraqis (until the invasion) were a direct threat to the western world? None of the 9/11 bombers were Iraqi or trained in Iraq, Iraq had no WOMD and thus apart from the horrendous human rights abuses by Saddam they were of no large threat. The sole reason we entered Iraq was to consilidate oil supplies for the largest western users under the pretence of liberating a nation. If we hadn't have invaded (and based on the scant evidence we had we didn't need to for national security) then although Britain would have been targeted as a G8 nation, the main propaganda that al queda uses to 'justify' their war would not be in circulation. Blair was warned that any invasion of an arab state without a coherent reason and with public support (both of which we had for Afghanistan) would inevitably work against us as pictures of arabs dying, dead or injured would convert many into al queda sympathasisers if not supporters.
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Cards offer no protection.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 Allow who into the country? They don't get in with passports stamped "terrorist", or wearing t-shirts saying "I'm a human bomb, don't let me in".If people are determind enough you cannot stop them no matter what you do. 133743[/snapback] Would an Englishman terrorise London in the name of jihad?
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Cards offer no protection. 133802[/snapback] You cannot make a sweeping judgement that they won't save one life.
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Allow who into the country? They don't get in with passports stamped "terrorist", or wearing t-shirts saying "I'm a human bomb, don't let me in".If people are determind enough you cannot stop them no matter what you do. 133743[/snapback] Would an Englishman terrorise London in the name of jihad? 133803[/snapback] Yes and Fifth Columnists like that should be ruthessly rooted out.
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Cards offer no protection. 133802[/snapback] You cannot make a sweeping judgement that they won't save one life. 133804[/snapback] Correspondingly no-one can make the assumption they will.
Guest Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Lush, you are a moron who listens to half-truths and supposedly open left-wing protestors who are just as close-minded as the right of politics, whom they detest and denounce.Mr Blair, is not a terrorist in any shape or form. I may despise him, think him a useless prime minister, but his actions are in no way comparable to those of an Al-Qaeda leader. Yes, we bombed and invaded Iraq (wrongly or rightly). However, not once was a British or American soldier instructed to shoot and kill innocent civilians. No such order exists in the British or American military. The sole purpose of such explosive devices was to target innocent civilians. The bombers were not targetting military positions or bases. No, their express intention was to kill as many people as possible. Remember, a suicide bomber walks onto a bus, looks around, looks the people on the bus in the eye and detonates. This is in no way comparable to a British soldier in a firefight. Yes Lush, there are many terrorist groups in the world today. You named the IRA and the anti-globalists, both of whom I despise. However, at least these two groups have some form of respect for human life. The IRA, however, violent, did not detonate bombs to kill. They detonated bombs to cause destruction and chaos with the cost implications this would have to the economy. It was never their intention to kill innocent people. That is the difference. There is no justification for today, nor no comparison with Tony Blair and our armed forces. The people who commited today's atrocity are evil and need to be rooted out. P.s. ID cards are not the answer. The September 11th bombers all hard the correct ID cards, yet they were able to commit their heinous crimes. I would hope that ID cards are not justified on the back of today's tragedy. 133737[/snapback] May i reply be quoting you, `you are a moron`. breadandcheese. `half truths`? `Yes, we bombed and invaded Iraq`. Your absolutely correct though, not one british soilder was instructed to kill an innocent iraqi. You get my full attention to the way in which you NEVER read between the lines, you are a lovely puppet for blair. blair would be sacked for instructing such things, dont be so stupid mate. What he can do, is instruct the killings of innocence using words that say it, but not literally. He IS a terrorist. The sole purpose of blairs war, is to gain iraqi oil, and that if anyone stands in his way, there to be dealt with upto and including death. Dont give me this military rollax that terrorism is a text book concept. Killing an opposition is terrorism, full stop. blair is murdering innocent people over oil that generates money, respect for life, naaaaa blair is also terrorising free speech, he is THE most evil human in the uk today. I have to disagree, the ira have bombed places with vast amounts of people with-in the area. Agreed they need to be rooted out, so does blair. blair knows exactly how to defeat these islamic terrorists, but instead of doing so, he encourages their ideology in our society. he is enemy numero uno. Shake ya hands on your i.d card thoughts. 133796[/snapback] What a load of paranoid claptrap!! Haven't you heard of Brent Crude?
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Cards offer no protection. 133802[/snapback] You cannot make a sweeping judgement that they won't save one life. 133804[/snapback] Correspondingly no-one can make the assumption they will. 133807[/snapback] I didn't... I said "IF".
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast.As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Hows an i.d card going to save a life?
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 He wants to take away your rights and civil liberties and change the relationship between the State and the individual and the net result of all of this is your are less free as an individual and you have no real or effective protection. 133787[/snapback] Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast. As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Cards offer no protection. 133802[/snapback] You cannot make a sweeping judgement that they won't save one life. 133804[/snapback] Correspondingly no-one can make the assumption they will. 133807[/snapback] I didn't... I said "IF". 133810[/snapback] Will they or won't they then. Postulating that they may or indeed may not under certain circumstances save one life is a pretty poor justification for having ID cards. There are better ways of spending the money if you truly want to protect and save people.
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Surely if having something like ID card saves 1 innocent life we shouldn't really care that they know we shop in sainburys and have semi skimmed milk on ou breakfast.As i have said before they can know everything about me for all I care. My life isn't that exciting!!! 133792[/snapback] Hows an i.d card going to save a life? 133816[/snapback] terrorist may be caught with a false one, prevented carrying out their act and thus saving a life sounds simple and a stupid thing, but could happen, to deny it would be foolish
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 exactly, the only people that should care are those with something to hide! 133797[/snapback] TELL us all about your life? no? why not, you dont mind the government knowing...
Molson Canadian Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 terrible news of what's happened it shouldn't be happening in the first place
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