Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 terrorist may be caught with a false one, prevented carrying out their act and thus saving a lifesounds simple and a stupid thing, but could happen, to deny it would be foolish 133819[/snapback] are you serious? if someone wants to kill another, there not going to wait for a bloody card for permission this is the mentallity as to why a w@nker like blair is able to force his way into presidency (pm to you) cos theres alot of people that dont understand the political process, and believe him, so sad. 133844[/snapback] sorry chancellor lush, care to explain the political system to us all then in full detail? The only sad fact is that in a democratic society, the man elected is still condemed by the people. If he is a dictator then why hasn't he got rid of the voting system altogether? whats next, persectution? 133853[/snapback] the political system is such, when you have a blagger (blair) and you have millions people that are too lazy to say no to him, he wins and kills innocent people. the deal is to make people aware of him (as im trying to do) so hes removed. 133867[/snapback] innocent people? I must have mis-interpretated Saint Saddam then and his followers. The graves must be fake as are the figures of dead. Those killed (not including the casualties that comes with war) in Iraq by Americans and British soldiers are LIKELY to be the same people who have done this today But yes they are innocent.... This is why they get away with this stuff. What's it like in a virtual world where everything is perfect? never been there myself!
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 terrorist may be caught with a false one, prevented carrying out their act and thus saving a lifesounds simple and a stupid thing, but could happen, to deny it would be foolish 133819[/snapback] are you serious? if someone wants to kill another, there not going to wait for a bloody card for permission this is the mentallity as to why a w@nker like blair is able to force his way into presidency (pm to you) cos theres alot of people that dont understand the political process, and believe him, so sad. 133844[/snapback] Your missing the point.... of course it won't stop all attacks but If it stopped one that's enough. These people have probably been in the country for ages if them having a card helps them get "flagged" then it's done it's job. 133858[/snapback] ok ```if``` it helps someone, cool, but lets deal with reality here. its a fact that we will lose a vast amount of liberty, something weve fought in wars to protect, something millions of our forefathers died for to protect, and blairs regime wants to destroy that with a piece of plastic, no fvcking way, i will not have it. is a few deaths prevented, better than free liberty? i dont think so, deaths happens, its human nature, we are human fvcking beings for god sake, not cattle. jeez!!
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 People can get "flagged" this means your on a list suspicious people they want to keep track of. If having ID cards means suspicious activity is made easier to pick up then it could save lives. 133829[/snapback] Youve been flagged...now you say `could`. You dont know what your saying You dont know what your saying You dont know what your saying You dont know what your saying maybe we will place our i.d card on someone whos dieing and it will make them better again shall we look through the round window today bungle 133860[/snapback] i thought u were crazy from previous posts but now you've really lost it mate 133861[/snapback] Humour is so lost on some
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 terrorist may be caught with a false one, prevented carrying out their act and thus saving a lifesounds simple and a stupid thing, but could happen, to deny it would be foolish 133819[/snapback] are you serious? if someone wants to kill another, there not going to wait for a bloody card for permission this is the mentallity as to why a w@nker like blair is able to force his way into presidency (pm to you) cos theres alot of people that dont understand the political process, and believe him, so sad. 133844[/snapback] Your missing the point.... of course it won't stop all attacks but If it stopped one that's enough. These people have probably been in the country for ages if them having a card helps them get "flagged" then it's done it's job. 133858[/snapback] ok ```if``` it helps someone, cool, but lets deal with reality here. its a fact that we will lose a vast amount of liberty, something weve fought in wars to protect, something millions of our forefathers died for to protect, and blairs regime wants to destroy that with a piece of plastic, no fvcking way, i will not have it. is a few deaths prevented, better than free liberty? i dont think so, deaths happens, its human nature, we are human fvcking beings for god sake, not cattle. jeez!! 133875[/snapback] Having a card WILL NOT change my life, or your life in any way whatsoever. So why does it matter?
breadandcheese Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Lush, The Iraq war debate is old, it has happened and I still agree with it. The spreading of democracy to the Middle East is long overdue. A thriving Iraq in 10 years time will inspire people led uprisings in other bastions of dictatorship such as Syria or Iran. These regimes are not friendly, despite how the BBC would like to portray these "underdog" nations. They are not opn and their leaders fear what has happened in Iraq as a threat to their power base. The only way to defeat Al-Qaeda and Islamic fundamentalism is through the freedoms and prosperity that democracy brings. The reason for the popularity of fundamentalism can be directly traced back to Middle Eastern dictatorship regimes, whereby corruption reigns, people suffer from brutality and poverty, and discussion and education is restricted. (Egypt in 1970 and the Brotherhood of Islam was the first Islamic fundamentalist movement). In that way, our removal of Saddam and our attempts to bring about the first Arab democratic state should not be vilified but supported. I fully support the actions and have a huge amount of respect for the British troops who served and indeed are serving in Iraq. With regards ID cards, I have still not seen any justification for having them. ID cards would not have stopped today's atrocity, for the bombers may well have been British. I agree our border controls need tightening, but we must not throw our liberty away. The only thing an ID card is useful for is to determine the difference between an illegal immigrant and someone with the right to stay in this country. In which case, an ID card serves only as a costly admission by the government that its immigration and border policy has run amok.
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 we will lose a vast amount of liberty, something weve fought in wars to protect, something millions of our forefathers died for to protect133875[/snapback] They died protecting us from the bloody nazis mate. Not protecting us from the government knowing whether you take out books about making bombs at home. Or how much you spend on shopping a week.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 exactly, the only people that should care are those with something to hide! 133797[/snapback] TELL us all about your life? no? why not, you dont mind the government knowing... 133821[/snapback] k what you want to know? i apologise for not being a coward shying away from wanting something done against the protection of our country 133826[/snapback] I want you to tell me all about you, your finger print details, iris shot, personal bank details, health records NI number, how much you earn, you get the picture? Or i could buy them off blair and use them against you, which do you prefer? 133850[/snapback] But what difference does that make? i'd be surprised if they didnt already know all of that! 133856[/snapback] And you dont mind..? the difference is, they can sell your personal details with a card that confirms it all. Youve gota be against that/them surely? 133869[/snapback] Sell it to who? and for what purpose? you numb nuts!!! 133872[/snapback] commercial companies you thick tw@. someone show this idiot the way, im losing the will to live with him.
Babylon Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 exactly, the only people that should care are those with something to hide! 133797[/snapback] TELL us all about your life? no? why not, you dont mind the government knowing... 133821[/snapback] k what you want to know? i apologise for not being a coward shying away from wanting something done against the protection of our country 133826[/snapback] I want you to tell me all about you, your finger print details, iris shot, personal bank details, health records NI number, how much you earn, you get the picture? Or i could buy them off blair and use them against you, which do you prefer? 133850[/snapback] But what difference does that make? i'd be surprised if they didnt already know all of that! 133856[/snapback] And you dont mind..? the difference is, they can sell your personal details with a card that confirms it all. Youve gota be against that/them surely? 133869[/snapback] Sell it to who? and for what purpose? you numb nuts!!! 133872[/snapback] commercial companies you thick tw@. someone show this idiot the way, im losing the will to live with him. 133883[/snapback] So what are commercial companies going to do with your fingerprint?? People sell your address and phone numbers every day of the week already.
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 Foreign wars were to protect our culture from foreign conquering. Blair and the Government represent our voice, we (although not i i cannot vote yet) are the ones that put him back in power. I do see what you are saying and understand that many feel the same as you, however i personally feel the loss of liberty statement is an exaggeration. Looking at my life, i'm not told where to go, i can go where i want, i live my life without any direct (but maybe indirect) influences. You could say a government's constitution is a dictator while your at it?!?! We live by laws because we understand how to progress as a civilised race. I have a lot of opportunities that other countries could never dream of; education, transport, health care etc. How we can be compared to a dictatorship is laughable when you consider the likes of Hitler and more recently Saddam. We are even in the position where we can choose to vote or not, some do not even get a vote. The extent of a loss of liberties can be cancelled out by the opportunity to live out my life!
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 breadandcheese, i agree that sadam should be evicted, i was for the war when it started too, but ive realised through family and friends who are there and have been there, that this is ALL about money. PLEASE READ THIS BIT...why dont we attack mugabbe? hes just as bad as sadam was, why? BECAUSE THERES NO FVCKING MONEY TO BE MADE, thats why. Once again, i agree with your i.d card stance.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 we will lose a vast amount of liberty, something weve fought in wars to protect, something millions of our forefathers died for to protect133875[/snapback] They died protecting us from the bloody nazis mate. Not protecting us from the government knowing whether you take out books about making bombs at home. Or how much you spend on shopping a week. 133882[/snapback] r u fvcking brain dead or a wind up merchant? of course what u stated, it ensured LIBERTY you thick tw@
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 breadandcheese,i agree that sadam should be evicted, i was for the war when it started too, but ive realised through family and friends who are there and have been there, that this is ALL about money. PLEASE READ THIS BIT...why dont we attack mugabbe? hes just as bad as sadam was, why? BECAUSE THERES NO FVCKING MONEY TO BE MADE, thats why. Once again, i agree with your i.d card stance. 133888[/snapback] if one of his supporters made an act of terrorism against the USA or UK i'm sure they would! It's hard to accept but 9/11 added pressure already built on saddams reputation and past to 'go into iraq'. I disagree with this style of action, maybe they should intervene now? I couldn't comment as i know far less on this situation so see no need to blag my way through a disscussion about it.
breadandcheese Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 An ID card will not stop terrorism. It does not even take away our liberty in a conventional sense, merely it is big brother watching us. Imagine living with a neighbour who is constantly looking over your shoulder, checking up on what you are doing, that wants to know the ins and outs of what you are doing. That is the liberty we will lose, and I for one would hate to live in that sort of environment. An ID card's only purpose is to determine a person's status, i.e. are they an illegal immigrant or a British citizen, etc? As said earlier, an ID card therefore is an admission that our border policy and immigration policy is failing. We should be addressing, spending the billions of our tax on this, rather than ID cards. If we tackle the problem, we can solve it, otherwise we are just creating a rod for our own back.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 People sell your address and phone numbers every day of the week already. 133884[/snapback] Is that a good thing?
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 An ID card will not stop terrorism. It does not even take away our liberty in a conventional sense, merely it is big brother watching us. Imagine living with a neighbour who is constantly looking over your shoulder, checking up on what you are doing, that wants to know the ins and outs of what you are doing. That is the liberty we will lose, and I for one would hate to live in that sort of environment.An ID card's only purpose is to determine a person's status, i.e. are they an illegal immigrant or a British citizen, etc? As said earlier, an ID card therefore is an admission that our border policy and immigration policy is failing. We should be addressing, spending the billions of our tax on this, rather than ID cards. If we tackle the problem, we can solve it, otherwise we are just creating a rod for our own back. 133894[/snapback]
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 i personally feel the loss of liberty statement is an exaggeration. How we can be compared to a dictatorship is laughable when you consider the likes of Hitler and more recently Saddam. The extent of a loss of liberties can be cancelled out by the opportunity to live out my life! 133885[/snapback] It wouldnt if we had i.d cards. type liberty in ya google and read about what youve lost? A dictator isnt only a sadam style creature, its one in which someone of more power than another dictates what the other does, remember that for this convo. When millions voted with their feet against the war, and blair said no, then you dont live in a democracy, as we would like it. we now have hatred laws, thats dictatorship upon freedom or speech.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 breadandcheese,i agree that sadam should be evicted, i was for the war when it started too, but ive realised through family and friends who are there and have been there, that this is ALL about money. PLEASE READ THIS BIT...why dont we attack mugabbe? hes just as bad as sadam was, why? BECAUSE THERES NO FVCKING MONEY TO BE MADE, thats why. Once again, i agree with your i.d card stance. 133888[/snapback] if one of his supporters made an act of terrorism against the USA or UK i'm sure they would! It's hard to accept but 9/11 added pressure already built on saddams reputation and past to 'go into iraq'. I disagree with this style of action, maybe they should intervene now? I couldn't comment as i know far less on this situation so see no need to blag my way through a disscussion about it. 133893[/snapback] WHERES the evidence to suggest sadams mob attacked the twin towers???
Guest Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 What a load of paranoid claptrap!! Haven't you heard of Brent Crude? 133809[/snapback] Explain what you mean about `paranoid claptrap`? Who`s brent crude? 133837[/snapback] Says it all really!
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 i personally feel the loss of liberty statement is an exaggeration. How we can be compared to a dictatorship is laughable when you consider the likes of Hitler and more recently Saddam. The extent of a loss of liberties can be cancelled out by the opportunity to live out my life! 133885[/snapback] It wouldnt if we had i.d cards. type liberty in ya google and read about what youve lost? A dictator isnt only a sadam style creature, its one in which someone of more power than another dictates what the other does, remember that for this convo. When millions voted with their feet against the war, and blair said no, then you dont live in a democracy, as we would like it. we now have hatred laws, thats dictatorship upon freedom or speech. 133900[/snapback] saying no is too late though! Elections happen once every 4 years on average, that is your chance to choose the person you want to represent you! The Government is then made. Anything must go through parliament as a bill and is voted on hence we are a democracy. We have put them people in that position with our authority to do what they do. By voting them you agree with everything they do, a concept many British fail to understand. A dictator is a ruler with complete and unrestricted power. If he had that power then the I.D. cards would already be out. The reason we have an election is to vote the person you want to put forward your thoughts. Thus, what the Prime minister says, is what you say.
Tomassi Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 today should have happened years ago, but look at whats happened around the world, america got hit in 2001, spain got hit last year, im surprised that these places got hit before us, but it must mean we have one of the best security in the world! yes ID Cards im not a fan of them, im not sure what they would do, but thinking about it, it would make it easier for the local constabularies around the country to target terrorists and solve crimes quicker. peple say liberties will be taken away, but thats just people thinking about themselves. look at the people in 3rd world countries they dont have a choice. Terrorism will never fade away, its always been here ever since the dawn of Man. And yes terrorism has been mainly linked to wars of religion... but how long has that been around?? THOUSANDS OF YEARS!! the more we minimise it the better, but we will never get rid of it. There is no such thing as the perfect world, never has been never will be, but if we all work together rather than slag each other off then we can live in a more positive yet friendlier environment
Benji Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 breadandcheese,i agree that sadam should be evicted, i was for the war when it started too, but ive realised through family and friends who are there and have been there, that this is ALL about money. PLEASE READ THIS BIT...why dont we attack mugabbe? hes just as bad as sadam was, why? BECAUSE THERES NO FVCKING MONEY TO BE MADE, thats why. Once again, i agree with your i.d card stance. 133888[/snapback] if one of his supporters made an act of terrorism against the USA or UK i'm sure they would! It's hard to accept but 9/11 added pressure already built on saddams reputation and past to 'go into iraq'. I disagree with this style of action, maybe they should intervene now? I couldn't comment as i know far less on this situation so see no need to blag my way through a disscussion about it. 133893[/snapback] WHERES the evidence to suggest sadams mob attacked the twin towers??? 133902[/snapback] Osama mob you mean, i dunno, other than his self-confessed videos i'm sure theres a bit more evidence in the terrorists etc
breadandcheese Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 With regards Mugabe, we should intervene militarily, however, when the continent of Africa refuses to recognise a problem exists, we are unable to act. For example, South Africa, the most powerful African nation enjoys excellent relations with Zimbabwe and refuses to recognise a problem exists. From a Western point of view, there is a plethora of mineral wealth in Africa so any foothold on that continent provides a base for these. Just ask the Chinese with their increasing levels of foreign direct investment (aid, weapons, etc) to all manners of African countries in order to secure access to oil and resources. Of course, let's not forget the fact that Saddam Hussein had access to the numerous dodgy middle eastern channels emanating from that region. With the money and wealth of his country, he was a threat to the his own region and beyond (I am talking about deniable actions, not a strike by his army), unlike Mugabe who is relatively contained in his Zimbabwean bubble.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 What a load of paranoid claptrap!! Haven't you heard of Brent Crude? 133809[/snapback] Explain what you mean about `paranoid claptrap`? Who`s brent crude? 133837[/snapback] Says it all really! 133904[/snapback] It says you have trouble explaining yourself, says it all really...
Steven Posted 7 July 2005 Posted 7 July 2005 i personally feel the loss of liberty statement is an exaggeration. How we can be compared to a dictatorship is laughable when you consider the likes of Hitler and more recently Saddam. The extent of a loss of liberties can be cancelled out by the opportunity to live out my life! 133885[/snapback] It wouldnt if we had i.d cards. type liberty in ya google and read about what youve lost? A dictator isnt only a sadam style creature, its one in which someone of more power than another dictates what the other does, remember that for this convo. When millions voted with their feet against the war, and blair said no, then you dont live in a democracy, as we would like it. we now have hatred laws, thats dictatorship upon freedom or speech. 133900[/snapback] saying no is too late though! Elections happen once every 4 years on average, that is your chance to choose the person you want to represent you! The Government is then made. Anything must go through parliament as a bill and is voted on hence we are a democracy. We have put them people in that position with our authority to do what they do. By voting them you agree with everything they do, a concept many British fail to understand. A dictator is a ruler with complete and unrestricted power. If he had that power then the I.D. cards would already be out. The reason we have an election is to vote the person you want to put forward your thoughts. Thus, what the Prime minister says, is what you say. 133905[/snapback] This is not a democracy. How can anyone say that when the Government get 35% of the vote and not even a majority in England. I despise John Howard in Australia but at least he can say he has more tha 50% of the popular vote so can even Bush (though that one be a bit iffy ). Blair has unbridled power due to the lack of democracy and a written Constitution in the UK. He is in effect an unelected dictator.
lush Posted 7 July 2005 Author Posted 7 July 2005 saying no is too late though!Elections happen once every 4 years on average, that is your chance to choose the person you want to represent you! The Government is then made. Anything must go through parliament as a bill and is voted on hence we are a democracy. We have put them people in that position with our authority to do what they do. By voting them you agree with everything they do, a concept many British fail to understand. A dictator is a ruler with complete and unrestricted power. If he had that power then the I.D. cards would already be out. The reason we have an election is to vote the person you want to put forward your thoughts. Thus, what the Prime minister says, is what you say. 133905[/snapback] Do you think the war started after the 2001 election, or before? In the last one, NL got the worst presidencial victory in donkey`s. ``We have put them people in that position with our authority to do what they do. By voting them you agree with everything they do`` and then you say ``A dictator is a ruler with complete and unrestricted power`` So you agree then that blair is a dictator tell me how many people new we were going to fight innocent iraqis for money, before the 2001 election? then tell me if a government COULDVE been elected to avoid the war? and how many knew of this intrusion of liberty via the i.d card system before the last election? Then tell me if a government couldve been elected that wouldnt have introduced the i.d card system?
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