Two Police Women Killed in Manchester

[Bob Weasel Fox]

First of all, my thoughts and respects go out to the family members, friends and colleagues of the officers who sadly lost their life in the line of duty today.

I'm sure that most police officers themselves wouldn't want to be armed. What I think a lot of people fail to see/recognise is that the police don't generally get to deal with nice fine upstanding members of the community such as you or I, they have the 'pleasure' of dealing with the lowest of the low aswell.

If you see someone you don't like the look of, you get to walk the other way or cross the road and keep out of their way - the police don't. This country like it or lump it is fast becoming like America in the attitude of the younger generation (not all of course). But the ones that think it's ok to drive around with a knife in the door pocket of a car, or a baseball bat in the footwell etc won't think twice about clonking someone over the head, meaning life is becoming cheaper and cheaper.

I was on duty on Monday evening, was called to a disturbance and low and behold, young lad with a knife - and the attitude/backchat to match. It's becoming much more common for your everyday officer. In a sense, the police are fighting against the criminal mentality of a USA style attitude without enough tools to do the job. I personally think that more tasers should be available to officers - with the proper degree of training of course. There can be fewer than 20 taser trained officers on duty at any given time to cover the whole county! That's outrageous in my humble opinion. They are truly effective and deterring a potential offender, just by drawing them - which happens far more often than them actually being discharged.

To add insult to injury, the HomeSec and PM have expressed their sorrow, regret and respect to the officers today - yet they still cut the front line staff by 20% - it's only going to get worse! How much more of an advantage do you give to the criminals?

someone talking fookin sense at last

[purpleronnie]

You say its more and more like America...but we've always had a very small murder rate and not only is it small but its actually falling.

[Guest MattP]

You say its more and more like America...but we've always had a very small murder rate and not only is it small but its actually falling.

Don't think its been falling over the last five years has it?

[AoWW]

Thoughts are with their families, friends and colleagues.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

You say its more and more like America...but we've always had a very small murder rate and not only is it small but its actually falling.

Where as knife crime and gun crime is rising. Just because no one is murdered doesn't mean that officers aren't coming across these instances more often. Thankfully, as you say, the murder rate is falling - but for how long?

When I likened us to America - I mean merely the attitude not the actual amounts of murder. But surely that's where it starts? Once the attitude starts going in that direction surely it's only going to end in tears....I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

[Bob Weasel Fox]

Where as knife crime and gun crime is rising. Just because no one is murdered doesn't mean that officers aren't coming across these instances more often. Thankfully, as you say, the murder rate is falling - but for how long?

When I likened us to America - I mean merely the attitude not the actual amounts of murder. But surely that's where it starts? Once the attitude starts going in that direction surely it's only going to end in tears....I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

how very true

[Jimothy]

Did anyone else hear this and was reminded of the storyline in Good Cop? For anyone who didn't see it, some gangsters in Liverpool ring up the police complaining that there's a house party going on in the early hours. Two officers are called out thinking it's a minor disturbance but when one goes into the house the gangsters basically beat him to death. It's not inconceivable a nutcase like Cregan saw it and thought it looked like a good way of luring police officers to their death. It could be a complete coincidence but it does seem strange.

I'm not making excuses for anybody but I said to my wife at the time that I thought the BBC were giving people ideas with that storyline. Still, I guess that could be said of any crime / police drama type-programme.

Yeah I've been watching that and thought the same thing. I've never heard of that kind of thing happening, and I've never seen it in a drama before, so it would seem as it's just been on, it could have been the inspiration.

[purpleronnie]

Where as knife crime and gun crime is rising. Just because no one is murdered doesn't mean that officers aren't coming across these instances more often. Thankfully, as you say, the murder rate is falling - but for how long?

When I likened us to America - I mean merely the attitude not the actual amounts of murder. But surely that's where it starts? Once the attitude starts going in that direction surely it's only going to end in tears....I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

you will be.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Cvnt

Whatever. I don't trust them and with good reason. Do you really think the average police has the necessary judgement to be given a device that can instantly take away someone's life? They make mistakes all the time and to be frank it isn't exactly a high IQ profession. I see no possible justification for them being allowed to carry guns and no tragedy is going to cloud MY judgement on that. If operations were planned properly there should be no need.

If that makes me a **** then **** it I'm a ****.

By the way this is in no way disrespectful to those two poor girls who died. Somebody raised the issue and I'm making my opinion on it known. Obviously what happened is sad..do we really need that pointing out? I swear some of you think you have a monopoly on humanity.

[Parafox]

Whatever. I don't trust them and with good reason. Do you really think the average police has the necessary judgement to be given a device that can instantly take away someone's life? They make mistakes all the time and to be frank it isn't exactly a high IQ profession. I see no possible justification for them being allowed to carry guns and no tragedy is going to cloud MY judgement on that. If operations were planned properly there should be no need.

If that makes me a **** then **** it I'm a ****.

By the way this is in no way disrespectful to those two poor girls who died. Somebody raised the issue and I'm making my opinion on it known. Obviously what happened is sad..do we really need that pointing out? I swear some of you think you have a monopoly on humanity.

Dear God...

So much ignorance shown by some on here.

Do you honestly think there ISN'T a rigourous selection process? Including psychometric testing.

Do you honestly think there ISN'T thorough background checks on their employment and personal history?

Do you honestly think there ISN'T rigorous and continual assessment of an armed officer?

Do you honestly think any Tom, Dick or Bobby that fancies carrying a gun can apply and be taken on?

Armed police officers are few and far between, thankfully, not only because that is the political will and because only the VERY select few will make it onto an armed response team.

I personally know an officer who has been through a 2 year process of assessment and checks and didn't make the grade for a quite minor failing. But he wasn't QUITE 100% and he didn't get selected.

As for the IQ remark... how stupid are YOU. Most recruitment of officers these days calls for higher education qualifications up to and including degree level.

No matter how well planned an operation there will always be an element of risk and a potential for things to take an unexpected turn. It's NOT an exact science. Please remember that the incident was a ROUTINE call to a SUSPECTED robbery in process. Something that happens dozens of times a day in a place the size of Manchester. Exactly what operational planning do you expect would they be doing in this situation?

Knee-Jerk,ignorant, foolish reaction by you, sir.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

Whatever. I don't trust them and with good reason. Do you really think the average police has the necessary judgement to be given a device that can instantly take away someone's life? They make mistakes all the time and to be frank it isn't exactly a high IQ profession. I see no possible justification for them being allowed to carry guns and no tragedy is going to cloud MY judgement on that. If operations were planned properly there should be no need.

If that makes me a **** then **** it I'm a ****.

By the way this is in no way disrespectful to those two poor girls who died. Somebody raised the issue and I'm making my opinion on it known. Obviously what happened is sad..do we really need that pointing out? I swear some of you think you have a monopoly on humanity.

Name me one human being that hasn't EVER made a mistake. It's called being human. The armed forces have humans in their ranks, they carry guns, they make mistake (ask the americans, they're responsible for enough 'blue on blue's'). It's inevitable that the police will make mistakes. Yes some mistakes will be more severe than others, doesn't stop the necessity to carry arms.

I agree that arming all police officers would be wrong, but to state that being an police officer doesn't require a high level of IQ is a little brash. Believe me, the armed officers I've met and worked with a very switched on individuals, the training they undertake is very challenging to say the least.

Obviously you don't trust any police officer - I'm not asking why, but I think tarring them all with the same brush isn't the right way to go about things.

[Captain...]

Threads develop into political debate sometimes, it happens.

If I wanted to read 500 pages of people saying RIP I'd go onto a Liverpool forum.

Oh Matt, that actually made me laugh out loud (I have spent more time than is healthy on liverpool forums)

That astounds me to be honest.

I would not feel safe at all being called to disturbances, muggings, burgularies etc knowing that if somebody came at me with a knife, I'd be fvcked.

The thing is with a gun is that you will 99% of the time not use it, but it acts as a hell of a deterrant.

Yes it acts as a deterrent (spell check is your friend don't be afraid of it) to those with knives, but not those with guns, bigger and better guns than standard police issue.

This is the problem, crime will always, always, happen, until we completely revolutionise society to move away from a greed based system of economics.

As the say if you build a better mousetrap, then nature will build a better mouse, (actually I think I may have made that up) but the point is there, you start being able to identify people with finger prints, then criminals will just wear gloves, put in cameras, they will wear a mask, arm the police, they will carry weapons.

As for the police, at the moment they are a shambles, after the Hillsborough revelations, the Leveson enquiry, Ian Tomlinson, and going back a bit further Charles de Menezes, I really don't have much faith in them being able to tell the truth, let alone carry a gun.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

Dear God...

So much ignorance shown by some on here.

Do you honestly think there ISN'T a rigourous selection process? Including psychometric testing.

Do you honestly think there ISN'T thorough background checks on their employment and personal history?

Do you honestly think there ISN'T rigorous and continual assessment of an armed officer?

Do you honestly think any Tom, Dick or Bobby that fancies carrying a gun can apply and be taken on?

Armed police officers are few and far between, thankfully, not only because that is the political will and because only the VERY select few will make it onto an armed response team.

I personally know an officer who has been through a 2 year process of assessment and checks and didn't make the grade for a quite minor failing. But he wasn't QUITE 100% and he didn't get selected.

As for the IQ remark... how stupid are YOU. Most recruitment of officers these days calls for higher education qualifications up to and including degree level.

No matter how well planned an operation there will always be an element of risk and a potential for things to take an unexpected turn. It's NOT an exact science. Please remember that the incident was a ROUTINE call to a SUSPECTED robbery in process. Something that happens dozens of times a day in a place the size of Manchester. Exactly what operational planning do you expect would they be doing in this situation?

Knee-Jerk,ignorant, foolish reaction by you, sir.

Absolutely spot on. There are always plans and plans go wrong - ask a builder

[Captain...]

Name me one human being that hasn't EVER made a mistake. It's called being human. The armed forces have humans in their ranks, they carry guns, they make mistake (ask the americans, they're responsible for enough 'blue on blue's'). It's inevitable that the police will make mistakes. Yes some mistakes will be more severe than others, doesn't stop the necessity to carry arms.

I agree that arming all police officers would be wrong, but to state that being an police officer doesn't require a high level of IQ is a little brash. Believe me, the armed officers I've met and worked with a very switched on individuals, the training they undertake is very challenging to say the least.

Obviously you don't trust any police officer - I'm not asking why, but I think tarring them all with the same brush isn't the right way to go about things.

But a mistake with a gun is not one that can be easily corrected, you can't ctrl+Z and undo shooting someone, humans make mistakes that is why we should never have invented such indiscriminate killing machines.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

Oh Matt, that actually made me laugh out loud (I have spent more time than is healthy on liverpool forums)

Yes it acts as a deterrent (spell check is your friend don't be afraid of it) to those with knives, but not those with guns, bigger and better guns than standard police issue.

This is the problem, crime will always, always, happen, until we completely revolutionise society to move away from a greed based system of economics.

As the say if you build a better mousetrap, then nature will build a better mouse, (actually I think I may have made that up) but the point is there, you start being able to identify people with finger prints, then criminals will just wear gloves, put in cameras, they will wear a mask, arm the police, they will carry weapons.

As for the police, at the moment they are a shambles, after the Hillsborough revelations, the Leveson enquiry, Ian Tomlinson, and going back a bit further Charles de Menezes, I really don't have much faith in them being able to tell the truth, let alone carry a gun.

If they didn't shoot him and he went on to blow up a train, the police would have been blamed for failing in their duties, as it happened (just after 7/7) a man with a rucksack jumped the gates at a train station and failed to stop after serval warnings, he was shot and killed, obviously we now know it was a tragic mistake. The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

But a mistake with a gun is not one that can be easily corrected, you can't ctrl+Z and undo shooting someone, humans make mistakes that is why we should never have invented such indiscriminate killing machines.

Absolutely wholly agree with you, but unfortunately these things exist, the baddies have them, therefore the goodies must have them too. The baddies won't give a monkeys about who they shoot, the goodies will (to the extent that if a person becomes a threat to life, they in turn become a baddy), what would you realistically want instead of a highly trained armed officer? Obviously no need for one, but lets be real, there is a need.

P.S I'm not using 'goodies' and 'baddies' to sound condescending

[Captain...]

If they didn't shoot him and he went on to blow up a train, the police would have been blamed for failing in their duties, as it happened (just after 7/7) a man with a rucksack jumped the gates at a train station and failed to stop after serval warnings, he was shot and killed, obviously we now know it was a tragic mistake. The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Not actually what happened, he didn't jump any gates, there were no warnings and no the police are not damned if they don't shoot an innocent man several times in the head whilst he is being held on the floor.

The report at the hearing told of the police officer watching a suspect in a flat actually going for a piss when De Menezes left the flat so he was unable to identify him properly, but then he was Met so they probably all look the same to him.

Seriously if you believe that then read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes#Menezes_shooting

And if that is not enough evidence to show how incompetent they can be, and how far they went to cover their tracks, so that people still believe this vaulted the barrier and ran away from the police crap, then for every point you don't believe wikipedia has a handy link to the source material.

[Captain...]

Absolutely wholly agree with you, but unfortunately these things exist, the baddies have them, therefore the goodies must have them too. The baddies won't give a monkeys about who they shoot, the goodies will (to the extent that if a person becomes a threat to life, they in turn become a baddy), what would you realistically want instead of a highly trained armed officer? Obviously no need for one, but lets be real, there is a need.

P.S I'm not using 'goodies' and 'baddies' to sound condescending

But if the goodies, buddies in the government didn't sanction and support the manufacture of all these arms, then there wouldn't be anything like the amount there are in the world and on the street.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

Not actually what happened, he didn't jump any gates, there were no warnings and no the police are not damned if they don't shoot an innocent man several times in the head whilst he is being held on the floor.

The report at the hearing told of the police officer watching a suspect in a flat actually going for a piss when De Menezes left the flat so he was unable to identify him properly, but then he was Met so they probably all look the same to him.

Seriously if you believe that then read this:http://en.wikipedia....enezes_shooting

And if that is not enough evidence to show how incompetent they can be, and how far they went to cover their tracks, so that people still believe this vaulted the barrier and ran away from the police crap, then for every point you don't believe wikipedia has a handy link to the source material.

I don't believe that for a second. I also don't believe anything serious from Wikipedia, if indeed there were no warnings, he didn't jump the gates and he was shot whilst he was being held down then why has no one been charged with his murder - and no, I don't believe that it's been white washed. After all, if the culprit was sacked/locked up, there will always be replacements as it seems that everyone can do the police's job better than the police.

[ADK]

I don't believe that for a second. I also don't believe anything serious from Wikipedia, if indeed there were no warnings, he didn't jump the gates and he was shot whilst he was being held down then why has no one been charged with his murder - and no, I don't believe that it's been white washed. After all, if the culprit was sacked/locked up, there will always be replacements as it seems that everyone can do the police's job better than the police.

Are really thick or something? We've seen recently a case of an officer commiting blatent manslaughter and getting away with it. We've had evidence of police cover ups coming out too.

[Parafox]

Are really thick or something? We've seen recently a case of an officer commiting blatent manslaughter and getting away with it. We've had evidence of police cover ups coming out too.

How on earth does this equate to two police officers being murdered?

[Captain...]

I don't believe that for a second. I also don't believe anything serious from Wikipedia, if indeed there were no warnings, he didn't jump the gates and he was shot whilst he was being held down then why has no one been charged with his murder - and no, I don't believe that it's been white washed. After all, if the culprit was sacked/locked up, there will always be replacements as it seems that everyone can do the police's job better than the police.

Very good question, I don't know, I think it is known as "getting away with murder".

If you don't believe Wikipedia, which is now one of the most thoroughly researched and credible sites on the web, it is no longer the free for all editing affair it used to be how about the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4175432.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7761652.stm

Or this one which has the actual CCTV footage of him going through the ticket barrier (follow the slide show) warning final slide shows his dead body, for those that don't want to see that kind of stuff:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/7073125.stm

How on earth does this equate to two police officers being murdered?

It doesn't, but it is reason for not giving more guns to police officers.

[Parafox]

Very good question, I don't know, I think it is known as "getting away with murder".

If you don't believe Wikipedia, which is now one of the most thoroughly researched and credible sites on the web, it is no longer the free for all editing affair it used to be how about the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/4175432.stm

http://news.bbc.co.u.../uk/7761652.stm

Or this one which has the actual CCTV footage of him going through the ticket barrier (follow the slide show) warning final slide shows his dead body, for those that don't want to see that kind of stuff:

http://news.bbc.co.u...629/7073125.stm

It doesn't, but it is reason for not giving more guns to police officers.

At no time, if you've noticed my posts. have I said more police should be armed.

[ADK]

I'm glad we agree that police in general should not be armed.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Armed police officers are few and far between, thankfully, not only because that is the political will and because only the VERY select few will make it onto an armed response team.

I personally know an officer who has been through a 2 year process of assessment and checks and didn't make the grade for a quite minor failing. But he wasn't QUITE 100% and he didn't get selected.

The poster I was originally responding to was advocating arming all police officers as standard, making the above and the rest of your post irrelevant. Obviously I can appreciate the need for armed response teams but that is not what is being discussed