Muslim associations in Leicester

[freund]

I really don't know what you guys are going on about?

[Dunc]

You must be a wind up merchant. He found me `racist`.

The Oxford English dictionary

161026[/snapback]

Apologies, he did call you a racist in a post after the one I initially read.

[Dunc]

So that line doesnt exsist in the qu`ran/koran now?

161073[/snapback]

You can take specific lines out of context out of any book or speech and twist it to suit your own arguments. You are doing just as the militant islamists do, take lines from the qu'ran and use them out of context to justify your opinions.

The Bible can be used in this way to oppress any number of ethnic groups as can words from Gandhi if you want to go the whole hog of idiocy.

No one can condone the extremism that exists within Islam or within every organised religion, however, why don't you start to question the problems with the Christian zealots in America who hold sway in American Politics. A line can be draw from the bible belt and born again christanity through to George Bush and Tony Blair.

Alternatively, if you are interested in politics, why not discuss the problems that the white lower & middle classes bring to society with binge drinking, under age sex, drugs and crime?

Ironically, you seem to fail to see that you using inflammatory comments and taking sentences out of context from books/posts/articles is exactly the same method that radical leaders of militant groups throughout history used.

Acting in this way makes you no better than the likes of Abu Hamza and other radical imams who work in exactly the same way to achieve opposite ends.

[Guest]

Is the ignorance surrounding Islam still being used to increase paranoia amongst those who don't understand the religion and aren't able to make an informed and intelligent decision as to what to believe?

Should I be running for my life yet?

[Dunc]

Well fair he might be but it seems to me you can't talk about:

Muslim fundamentalists and whether extremist clerics are racist, English trained doctors (of all colours and creeds) who can't get jobs in their own country because 40,000 doctors have come from abroad in the last 5 years; the hypocrisy of anti-racist activists disregarding racism/discrimination against whites;, anything critical of New Labour and one or two other things.

161219[/snapback]

I don't think its a problem to talk about the things you list. The problem, in my opinion, is that a debate starts with people involved who are prepared to listen and debate correctly, yet there are other posters who make their views known, yet then either ignore posts contradicting them if its hard to continue justifying their points in the face of reasoned comments.

If it was debating not ranting, it would be a interesting conflict of beliefs between the right wing views of Lush and the loonie left wing liberals like me.

[Thracian]

You can take specific lines out of context out of any book or speech and twist it to suit your own arguments.  You are doing just as the militant islamists do, take lines from the qu'ran and use them out of context to justify your opinions.

The Bible can be used in this way to oppress any number of ethnic groups as can words from Gandhi if you want to go the whole hog of idiocy.

No one can condone the extremism that exists within Islam or within every organised religion, however, why don't you start to question the problems with the Christian zealots in America who hold sway in American Politics.  A line can be draw from the bible belt and born again christanity through to George Bush and Tony Blair. 

Alternatively, if you are interested in politics, why not discuss the problems that the white lower & middle classes bring to society with binge drinking, under age sex, drugs and crime?

Ironically, you seem to fail to see that you using inflammatory comments and taking sentences out of context from books/posts/articles is exactly the same method that radical leaders of militant groups throughout history used. 

Acting in this way makes you no better than the likes of Abu Hamza and other radical imams who work in exactly the same way to achieve opposite ends.

161374[/snapback]

It's not just the extremists who are fostering discontent in the UK.

It's the sheer hypocrisy of seeing supposedly fair legislation twisted and abused so that it is only ethnic foreigners who benefit.

For instance"positive discrimination" is there to ensure a spread of different colours and creeds within a workforce. Fair enough in many ways.

And yet, did you see the television pictures of the Gourmet Gate staff. All Asian from what I could see. Not a white person, no West Indians, no orientals from what I could see.

Then there is the situation I raised over the British trained doctors. Some 2000 of them (of all creed and colour) cannot get training jobs in British hospitals because 40,000 foreign doctors have swamped the UK jobs market in the last five years.

How can it be fair that a) people trained and based here should be denied work in favour of foreigners who were not trained here and b) that the proportion of job placements is so unfair viz-a-viz foreigner to home trained?

How would you like it Duncan if you had passed A levels, studied for years at University then applied for work and found that 40,000 foreign trained medics were preferred to you?

And, another thing. How come every racist (and totally unacceptable) remark in a football ground is pounced upon and the culprits ejected and banned but extremist clerics can preach anti-Western and anti-Jewish hatred with virtual impunity (save for the handful it has taken years and years for the Labour Party to be shamed into finally and at least theoretically dealing with)?

What I believe in is a fair and tolerant society. It's just that some are treated a damn sight more fairly than others in 21st century Britain. Or do you not agree.

[Dunc]

I do agree with you to an extent, but in the case of the doctors issue I'm afraid I don't know enough about the recruitment process that occurred in the past 10 years. I was in the understanding that as recently as 5 years ago the UK had an extreme shortage of qualified nurses and doctors and so we were actively looking for people to bring into the UK to help out.

Now of course, the problem is that there is a shortage in Africa and we have too many recently qualified due to the high profile campaign to encourage students to become doctors and nurses. Its a bit of a problem but after inviting the foreign doctors in you now can't say "cheers for helping us out for 5 years, we're ok now, bye bye". My understanding is at the present time, the NHS aren't actively seeking any new doctors from over seas.

I personally don't feel that as a middle class, white, physically able, educated, hetrosexual male I am particuarly vilified even though I belong to the only social demograph that doesn't have any state support.

I do agree that there has been a reluctance on the part of the government to act against extremists of ethnic groups which has (in part) contributed to the recent attacks in London. However, I also believe that there is a reluctance to deal with white 'chavscum', as the right wing media would put it, as well.

Until everyone stops feeling sorry for themselves, saying 'I'm more persecuted than you", and starts to work together as one society to eradicate the white racist scumbag family on Beaumont Leys that terrorise their estate, as well as the radical imam outside the mosques in London, we'll never achieve what we both appear to want.

[lush]

Apologies, he did call you a racist in a post after the one I initially read.

161373[/snapback]

Thanks mate. Its nice to see honesty and fair play, unlike scarby.

[Rincewind]

Very good post there. It was also my understanding that up until recently there was a shortage of qualified doctors in certain areas of the profession. Add to this that the pay is poor and hours long compared to similar jobs in the private sector means that a lot of newly-qualified students look elsewhere wherehas overseas doctors are willing to do the work for a better life in Britain. There are also newly qualified doctors moving to America for a better rate of pay.

Without seeing more detailed figures of what areas overseas doctors filled (surgeons, dentists, gynocologists etc) and where the shortages were at the time it is difficult to comment on the statements made in earlier posts which in all honesty seemed a little one sided.

A medical degree is a long process and many students do not finish the course.

Personally I do not care whether a doctor comes from overseas or not. They do a wonderful job in a profession that Joe Normal would not last. Instead of slagging them off we should give them praise and support.

[lush]

You can take specific lines out of context out of any book or speech and twist it to suit your own arguments.  You are doing just as the militant islamists do, take lines from the qu'ran and use them out of context to justify your opinions.

why don't you start to question the problems with the Christian zealots in America who hold sway in American Politics.  A line can be draw from the bible belt and born again christanity through to George Bush and Tony Blair. 

Alternatively, if you are interested in politics, why not discuss the problems that the white lower & middle classes bring to society with binge drinking, under age sex, drugs and crime?

Ironically, you seem to fail to see that you using inflammatory comments and taking sentences out of context from books/posts/articles is exactly the same method that radical leaders of militant groups throughout history used. 

Acting in this way makes you no better than the likes of Abu Hamza and other radical imams who work in exactly the same way to achieve opposite ends.

161374[/snapback]

Does the line “Slay the pagans wherever ye find them…â€Â.[9:5], exist or not?

If those christian zealots are doing bad, then they should be punished. Im more concerned with bad on my doorstep.

Yes the under age sex, drugs etc is a problem, but:

a, theres a zillion police designed to deal with it.

b, theres a new law to stop the indulgence.

c, its not only white people, its non whites, and if i talk about them, im called `racist`

d, its not a direct problem for me.

e, we need to understand killers much more.

What are these inflamotory comments? Ive justly questioned the writings of the koran, whats wrong with that? You just attacked white people, but do i describe you as writing inflamotory comments, or racist even...no

I think you should personally delete your last paragraph, it doesnt show you in a good light

[breadandcheese]

I was under the impression that the problem with shortages in junior doctor training positions is down to the way the NHS is run, and not positive discrimination or bias.

Something to do with their inept management so that they no longer have the money to take on trainee doctors and instead need instant recruits (thus doctors from abroad who already have all the necessary qualifications and experience of working in a hospital). Probably something to do with the vast amount of bureaucracy and money wasted at the top levels of the NHS.

If anybody here is studying medicine or training to be a doctor, I would be interested to know what they think.

[lush]

I don't think its a problem to talk about the things you list .  The problem, in my opinion, is that a debate starts with people involved who are prepared to listen and debate correctly , yet there are other posters who make their views known, yet then either ignore posts contradicting them if its hard to continue justifying their points in the face of reasoned comments.

If it was debating not ranting, it would be a interesting conflict of beliefs between the right wing views of Lush and the loonie  left wing liberals like me.

161379[/snapback]

HOLD ON A MINUTE!! you just had a go at me for inflamotory comments, about the same issues

And is your version of `debate correctly`?

I wouldnt call you loonie, just yet, but give me time

[Thracian]

Well you acknowledge the point I made in a withdrawn post that lots of young professionals, doctors and nurses included, are leaving this country for America and elsewhere (the same as my own son) and some because they can't get jobs here.

I agree with you that it matters not whether a doctor comes from here or abroad so long as they are well qualified, can understand the language and are the best available.

Which would certainly leave the question as to why 2000 home trained medics supposedlyu couldn't find a job but I'd differ with your view that they all perform wonderfully.

I have had three first hand experiences of the medical profession in action recently and I would have given a rating no higher than 2/10 for the combined performance.

Ironically it was a Muslim doctor who performed best but other foreign and home trained medical staff were diabolical, there is no other word.

Poor diagnosis on several occasions, an unexplained operational blip which might well have ended in death, poor or incomplete communication, misleading instructions, intransigent workforce, lengthy and unreasonable delays for no particular reason (except it was lunchtime) etc etc.

One further point. You describe my quotes as one-sided. They were the figures quoted and I am sure that the powers that be would offer plausible explanations about every appointment. Nor is the instance of medics seeking better pay/opportunities/environment new, I know that, but they seem to be increasing.

However look about you. What proportion of staff in the NHS today are foreign compared with, say 40 years ago. Am I making that up?. There is a huge number of foreign staff in the NHS the same as there is becoming a huge number of foreign footballers in Britain now. How can that be good for British trainees or, indeed the places those foreigners were trained?.

What I am saying is what about all our home trained people (not just the white ones)? What is the sense in training them if we don't offer them decent jobs?

It is true in the NHS, it is true in football and it is true in other industries.

Argue away and I will listen. But don't imply that I make things up or slant a story to make some political or idealogical point. I don't. I have no idealogical flag to fly nor political dogma to promote.

I am interested in the welfare of this country, the welfare of the people who live here and the future opportunities for our young folk. It's hard enough getting at the truth of things through all the vested interests without me making things up or unreasonably slanting the facts.

If you find I've made a mistake then it wouldn't be the first time and I'll happily acknowledge it.

But I'll find it hard to doubt the evidence of my own eyes.

[Rincewind]

Sorry if you thought I was having a go at you specifically. I did not say who my reply was in answer to. My comment I believe was 'a little one-sided' By this I meant that a few posts singled out specific groups branding them as all the same. Most of these posts come from one source.

On the doctors issue I do not dispute the article but the article can be misinterpruted in any way one chooses. Dunc makes some good points about there being shortages as the reason for bringing in overseas doctors. This makes sense. The same as the Islamic scriptures, they were written in ancient times when tribal wars were aplenty. This point has been ignored, not by you I dont think but the same extract is repeated to support a certain POV.

We won't get rid of the extremists by antagonising the moderates. We need the Moderate Muslim support more than ever. If that means recruiting Muslim police to patrol their communities then that can only be a good thing. Better than having racist policemen that do not understand or cannot communicate with the Muslims to get help and information. We have to gain their confidence if we are to rid this country of the extremists.

[Thracian]

Sorry if you thought I was having a go at you specifically. I did not say who my reply was in answer to. My comment I believe was 'a little one-sided' By this I meant that a few posts singled out specific groups branding them as all the same.  Most of these posts come from one source.

On the doctors issue I do not dispute the article but the article can be misinterpruted in any way one chooses.  Dunc makes some good points about there being shortages as the reason for bringing in overseas doctors.  This makes sense. The same as the Islamic scriptures, they were written in ancient times when tribal wars were aplenty. This point has been ignored, not by you I dont think but the same extract is repeated to support  a certain POV.

We won't get rid of the extremists by antagonising the moderates. We need the Moderate Muslim support more than ever. If that means recruiting Muslim police to patrol their communities then that can only be a good thing. Better than having racist policemen that do not understand or cannot communicate with the Muslims to get help and information. We have to gain their confidence if we are to rid this country of the extremists.

161451[/snapback]

Re. Police I couldn't agree more but the disharmony comes with the news that white recruits wait three years to join the Police and ethnic recruits only one year.

Put yourself in the position of being a young white person applying for a job and finding that the dice has been unfairly loaded against you. Would you feel resentment?

Before long you'll have the Muslim and white teenagers despising each other what with one influence or another.

And that's daft because, essentially there is no reason they should not get on if politicians and clerics would forever stop queering the pitch.

Do you not see?.

A multicultural society must be fair and seen to be fair to whites as well as ethnics, to natives and newcomers. And that is not to mention young/old etc but that is an entirely different story and one that will also need better understanding.

[Dunc]

Does the line “Slay the pagans wherever ye find them…â€Â.[9:5], exist or not?

If those christian zealots are doing bad, then they should be punished. Im more concerned with bad on my doorstep.

Yes the under age sex, drugs etc is a problem, but:

a, theres a zillion police designed to deal with it.

b, theres a new law to stop the indulgence.

c, its not only white people, its non whites, and if i talk about them, im called `racist`

d, its not a direct problem for me.

e, we need to understand killers much more.

What are these inflamotory comments? Ive justly questioned the writings of the koran, whats wrong with that? You just attacked white people, but do i describe you as writing inflamotory comments, or racist even...no

I think you should personally delete your last paragraph, it doesnt show you in a good light

161418[/snapback]

You really do irritate me at times because you konw I didn't argue that the line exists or not, the point was that those 7 words are part of a larger paragraph that doesn't have the same meaning as that sentence alone.

You can't question the writings of the qu'ran without comparing it with any book written at that time. Its not the book that is the problem, it is the people that use fragments of paragraphs to justify their own idealogy, just like you do.

and as you well know the use of the word 'white' was in direct contrast to your use of muslim to highlight the fact there are a number of social groups that have problems not just islam which you seem to believe is the great evil in the world at the moment.

I won't retract the last paragraph because you do take sections of posts/arguments/speeches/books and select a few words of a larger paragraph that support your views. Its what the Nazi's did, it's was radical imams do and its what you do.

[Dunc]

HOLD ON A MINUTE!! you just had a go at me for inflamotory comments, about the same issues

And is your version of `debate correctly`?

I wouldnt call you loonie, just yet, but give me time  

161422[/snapback]

Not using peoples posts and selecting a few words from a sentence and twisting the overall meaning to your own ends.

I would say a number of muslims would find it inflamatory becuase you are selecting a phrase that suits your argument even though the meaning of the paragraph from which you take it doesn't support your argument.

Eg. If I put "if Lush saw the bigger picture and realised that islam isn't a problem in itself, I would happily say "i support Lush and his views".

You would take the last bit and put it in bold and use it to support you. Incidentally, I wouldn't ever type that cause its not going to happen.

[Dunc]

Re. Police I couldn't agree more but the disharmony comes with the news that white recruits wait three years to join the Police and ethnic recruits only one year.

Put yourself in the position of being a young white person applying for a job and finding that the dice has been unfairly loaded against you. Would you feel resentment?

161466[/snapback]

I know 100% that in Leicestershire at least all training is postponed since last year and that white and ethnic recruits are waiting together. Also, I know that since the Lawerence enquiry, equality in the visible aspects of the Police such as training mean that recruits aren't being made to wait on the basis of colour.

Like I say, the NHS i don't know so much about.

[lush]

You really do irritate me at times because you konw I didn't argue that the line exists or not, the point was that those 7 words are part of a larger paragraph that doesn't have the same meaning  as that sentence alone. 

You can't question the writings of the qu'ran without comparing it with any book written at that time.  Its not the book that is the problem, it is the people that use fragments of paragraphs to justify their own idealogy , just like you do.

and as you well know the use of the word 'white' was in direct contrast to your use of muslim to highlight the fact there are a number of social groups that have problems not just islam which you seem to believe is the great evil in the world at the moment. 

I won't retract the last paragraph because you do take sections of posts/arguments/speeches/books and select a few words of a larger paragraph that support your views . Its what the Nazi's did, it's was radical imams do and its what you do .

161476[/snapback]

Glad its not all the time, or should it be

If the koran was not the belief of anyone, like it was just a play or something, then “Slay the pagans wherever ye find them…â€Â.[9:5], wouldnt be a problem. The fact that people adhere to the koran in serious terms, then this verse (regardless of whatever else is written along side it) makes them believers in it.

Analogy: "till death us do part", for most serious believers in that statement, they wed until death devides them.

Or, are you saying that muslims arnt serious about islam.

Im a pagan (practising), i`d like to know why the islamic faith adhere to that evil belief?

EVERY single serious muslim adheres to the qu`ran? Whatever that book says, they adhere to.

Analogy: I adhere to every aspect of the walkers stadium, i may not like it, but once i enter that ground, i adhere to all the guidlines and rules, because i am serious about the club.

Well the `news` is telling me that islam is the most wicked faith on earth, but i hate all godly religions equally.

If you dont respond to what im saying, then naturally im going to answer the parts that closely represent what im onabout.

Its also what you do, you think your the higher almighty or something We both have an ideology of thought, i wouldnt expect you to think otherwise. Which means you describe things in the same way as the nazis or imams, who you attack trying to make out your all good, and im all bad, wont wash.

[lush]

Eg. If I put "if Lush saw the bigger picture and realised that islam isn't a problem in itself, I would happily say "i support Lush and his views".

You would take the last bit and put it in bold and use it to support you.  Incidentally, I wouldn't ever type that cause its not going to happen.

161478[/snapback]

There is nothing evil about "i support Lush and his views", there is something evil about slaying pagans, wherever ye find them.

Explain to how slaying pagans is a good thing?????

[breadandcheese]

Well the `news` is telling me that islam is the most wicked faith on earth, but i hate all godly religions equally.

161523[/snapback]

What 'news' do you listen to? BNP TV?

[Dunc]

clearly it is not a good thing, just as advocating slavery in the bible isn't a good thing either.

For the 3rd and final time, its got to be taken in the context it is written in. In the case of the Qu'ran it was written 1000's of years ago when values were different and this sentence was written regarding the war the arabs were fighting against pagans AT THAT TIME, not, if you see other parts of the qu'ran, as an eternally lasting edict.

One thing we can agree on is that religion as far as politics goes doesn't work, as people use it for the wrong reasons. What we can't seem to agree on is that its not Islam or the Qu'ran that is the problem in this case, it is the people who take phrases out of context to support their arguments whatever their religion.

"Analogy: "till death us do part", for most serious believers in that statement, they wed until death devides them."

That'd be why divorce never happens then. Good comparison.

"EVERY single serious muslim adheres to the qu`ran? Whatever that book says, they adhere to."

And nowhere in there are there direct instructions to kill you or me, it is the interpretation of militant islamists that tell people there is. Just as in the bible there are many contradictory values, the Qu'ran has the same problem. The majority of Muslims know and acknowledge this and work around them just as the majority of Christians do with the Bible.

And if you can show me evidence of taking samples of paragraphs from other people to back up my arguments by distorting what the thrust of their post/speech/book was then please prove it because if you can't (and you can't) I demand an apology, just as I apologised to you.

[lush]

What 'news' do you listen to? BNP TV?

161530[/snapback]

Itv bbc c4 c5 cnn abc ici and b&q ive seen bnptv, a labour man told me about it, he works at frog island, chubby guy with glasses, do you know him?

[breadandcheese]

Itv bbc c4 c5 cnn abc ici and b&q   ive seen bnptv, a labour man told me about it, he works at frog island, chubby guy with glasses, do you know him?

161545[/snapback]

Unfortunately not. I guess we don't mix in the same circles.

[lush]

clearly it is not a good thing , just as advocating slavery in the bible isn't a good thing either.

For the 3rd and final time, its got to be taken in the context it is written in . In the case of the Qu'ran it was written 1000's of years ago when values were different and this sentence was written regarding the war the arabs were fighting against pagans AT THAT TIME, not, if you see other parts of the qu'ran, as an eternally lasting edict.

What we can't seem to agree on is that its not Islam or the Qu'ran that is the problem in this case, it is the people who take phrases out of context to support their arguments whatever their religion.

That'd be why divorce never happens then.  Good comparison.

And nowhere in there are there direct instructions to kill you or me , it is the interpretation of militant islamists that tell people there is.  Just as in the bible there are many contradictory values, the Qu'ran has the same problem.  The majority of Muslims know and acknowledge this and work around them just as the majority of Christians do with the Bible.

And if you can show me evidence of taking samples of paragraphs from other people to back up my arguments by distorting what the thrust of their post/speech/book was then please prove it because if you can't (and you can't) I demand an apology, just as I apologised to you.

161543[/snapback]

So finally you agree. What do you think muslims will think of you that their qu`ran says bad things?

Ok, let the islamic faith denounce the slaying of pagans, because it isnt what they adhere to now?

BUT it ***IS*** the qu`ran that says slay pagans, whos taking that out of context???

Divorce never happens to serious believers of "till death do us part", like my folks.

If muslims arnt slaying pagans wherever they find them, then their not serious about islam. What we need to do, is capture the serious ones who adhere to that philosophy, and make them understand that that kind of behaviour of thought is NOT tolerated in britain.

can you explain that last paragraph please, i cant work out what your onabout, im serious!!