Muslim associations in Leicester

[lush]

Unfortunately not.  I guess we don't mix in the same circles.

161549[/snapback]

"Unfortunate", but he guided me in the way of the bnp website and tv, i thought you didnt like them

[Dunc]

I give up!

i've re-read my last post and I can't see how I can make my points any clearer. Lush, yet again you've either not understood my post, misread it or just twisted what I've written to your advantage.

I can't be bothered trying to explain it for a 4th time, I've got laryngitis and I'm going to do something else. (thank god we type not speak on here).

I'm going to ask B&C and anyone else on here if my points really can be construed as Lush sees them, cause I really can't see how they can be!

as a final paragraph and to answer your "can you explain that last paragraph please, i cant work out what your onabout, im serious!!":

I said you distorted things like the radical imams do, then you said I do the same - "Its also what you do, you think your the higher almighty or something We both have an ideology of thought, i wouldnt expect you to think otherwise. Which means you describe things in the same way as the nazis or imams, who you attack trying to make out your all good, and im all bad, wont wash."

So I then said "show me evidence of taking samples of paragraphs from other people to back up my arguments by distorting what the thrust of their post/speech/book was then please prove it" because I demand an apology for you saying I do do the same.

[breadandcheese]

Dunc, your posts cannot be misconstrued. Only in Lush's mind.

I find it a bit troubling that Lush is allowed to continue his vitriol, and that this messageboard serves as a platform for this. Before the pre-emptive declaration of "stifling free speech" and "censorship", there are certain bounds that we all adher to in society such that freedom of speech can serve as the bastion it should. These are namely:

No slander or libel (i.e. misrepresentation of the truth)

No incitement to violence (and indeed now hatred)

Lush has been in breach of these on many occassions, misrepresenting opinions as fact, slandering entire groups.

By all means, these discussions are important and should be allowed, but I, and I would be interested to know how many others, feel that some posts have skirted very close to, or indeed have been in breach of misrepresentation and incitement.

[lush]

Lush, yet again you've either not understood my post, misread it or just twisted what I've written to your advantage.

I said you distorted things like the radical imams do

161559[/snapback]

Dunc, i understand fully what your saying, but what you fail to understand is, that what you say doesnt make sense.

Again im asking you, what possible good can come from the belief of slaying a pagan?? i think your avoiding any attempt to answer that, because you dont wana admit that certain parts of islam are evil.

So havnt you distorted what im saying? Your trying to say that the qu`ran doesnt say, slay the pagans...when clearly it does say that.

[lush]

Dunc, your posts cannot be misconstrued.  Only in Lush's mind .

I find it a bit troubling that Lush is allowed to continue his vitriol , and that this messageboard serves as a platform for this.

Lush has been in breach of these on many occassions, misrepresenting opinions as fact, slandering entire groups . 

By all means, these discussions are important and should be allowed, but I, and I would be interested to know how many others, feel that some posts have skirted very close to, or indeed have been in breach of misrepresentation and incitement .

161567[/snapback]

Theres no need to be bigoted.

I also find it that you have a nasty tongue, and that you feel ease in which to use it in here.

Care to show evidence of your vile accusations?

Care to explain the breach of incitement?

I suggest if you cant back-up your vile accusations, then you should shut up, because you`ll give this forum and yourself a bad name.

[Rincewind]

Dunc, I understand perfectly what you are saying. Lush has taken one line from a passage which fits in with his line of thinking. Its as simple as ABC. Put the rest of the passage together and a different interprutation may be found. I do not know the full passage as Lush has only quoted one line. And as you say this referred to a time long before ours.

I suppose we could do the same thing with Nostradamas's predictions and horoscopes in general. Slay all Pagans? At the time it was written there was a lot of conflict between tribes so the leaders natually wanted their followers to be on their side. That line seems reasonable But as someone quoted there is also a sentence that says 'If your enemies wish to make peace then make peace.'

I do not think ALL Muslims will adhere to these writings in the same way as Christians do not adhere to the bible. There are many contradictions in the Bible but the general context I would not think is a lot different to other scriptures. The basic rules which are not unlike laws of the land are there. Love one another, tolerance, behave yourself or be punished etc. With no government to make laws it was left to Holy men to pass on the word and the Word coming from God would be obeyed.

Well that is the way I look at things. Not being religious myself I am able to treat people as individuals and not classify them into any specific groups. In my way of thinking people are human beings first and I will judge each person on their actions.

[lush]

Ken, i fully agree with the interpretation meant for 1000 years ago, what i dont agree with, is the interpretation of it in the year 2005, in britain, on your street corner, today.

If serious muslims adhere to slaying pagans, even if pagans attacked them, then that is NOT how we do things in britain.

It doesnt matter what the full passage is, WE DO NOT MURDER, BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAS BEEN MURDERED, but the qu`ran says they do.

Why doesnt the islamic faith recognise that, and denounce it with immediate effect???

Have i made myself clear?

Is there anything that you dont understand?

Apparently (i dont know this 100%) its said that christians murdered the pagans 2000 years ago. If the same verse, or similar is said in the bible, then that should also be denounced.

[MC Prussian]

Ken, i fully agree with the interpretation meant for 1000 years ago, what i dont agree with, is the interpretation of it in the year 2005, in britain, on your street corner, today.

If serious muslims adhere to slaying pagans, even if pagans attacked them, then that is NOT how we do things in britain.

It doesnt matter what the full passage is, WE DO NOT MURDER, BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAS BEEN MURDERED, but the qu`ran says they do.

Why doesnt the islamic faith recognise that, and denounce it with immediate effect???

Have i made myself clear?

Is there anything that you dont understand?

Apparently (i dont know this 100%) its said that christians murdered the pagans 2000 years ago. If the same verse, or similar is said in the bible, then that should also be denounced.

161646[/snapback]

To draw a general line here:

Judging from your comments on my thread, as well as reading through the majority of this thread, I come to the conclusion that Lush himself is a very scared individual who likes to spread frenzy on this messageboard. All this one-sided hustle about Muslim Extremists is becoming boring. Every religion has its fanatics. Stupids. How about talking about Christian or Jewish fundamentalists? But nowadays, the media is on a Muslim hype, ignoring all other threats. I watch with disbelief how Britain slowly start to become a second U.S. of A. All that artificially created hate. Instead of communicating with Muslims (and you could see that there are moderate and intelligent people among them), we are told to fear them. Run from them. Hide in our houses. Denounce them whenever possible. I, for my part, would not want to live in such a climate.

You fail to understand that the Islam has never underwent an internal crisis like Christianity, which led to the Protestant/Catholic separation more than 500 years ago. If something similar should ever happen in Islam, it would create a massive conflict, not for the other religions, but predominantly for the Muslims themselves. Suddenly, they would find themselves separated by the same belief. Can you imagine how long it would take for the Muslim population to get over this?

And the qu'ran/Koran, just like the bible is full of unprecise, vague definitions. Everybody can read it differently. And where there are hundreds of passages of hatred and war, there is the same amount talking about peace and humanity. All "holy books" are meant to speak to the "believer" only, shutting down his or her common sense. Intelligent people study those books with interest, only to find out how dangerous they really are in the hands of the "prophet(s)".

Lush, once again you prove to be an excellent agent provocateur. And that's the reason why I don't like you on this messageboard. You spread various rumours with the intent to scare people. Throw around religious profanities. And while everybody is engaged in a hectic debate, you sit aside. Watch. And enjoy the stir you caused, amused.

Shame on you.

[lush]

Swiss, thousands of muslims voted for the the man that guides us to the US. I for one dont wana be part of the uk/us coalition.

All bad people, regardless of religious or political or whatever belief, are worth exposing. If you can put me intouch with other faiths that are doing bad, then i`ll expose them aswell.

I cannot communicate with a faith (islam) that thinks slaying pagans because they attack them, is justyfiable, sorry, its not right. IT IS NOT WHAT BRITAIN IS ABOUT, it is anti-british.

When islam denounces such evil behaviour, is when i can feel comfortable with it.

"You spread various rumours with the intent to scare people. Throw around religious profanities. And while everybody is engaged in a hectic debate, you sit aside. Watch. And enjoy the stir you caused, amused"

Proove it? or shut up!!

[Rincewind]

If serious muslims adhere to slaying pagans, even if pagans attacked them, then that is NOT how we do things in britain.

We agreed to the invasion of Iraq. We do not tell America to remove its warships from the Gulf. There are groups in Britain condoning the increased attacks on innocent Muslims. There are people calling for Islam to be banned. There are people that want all Muslims to be kicked out of Britain.

No, the serious Muslim should not act in the way they do. At the same time we as a british nation should be careful not to allow the extremists influence the moderates by antagonising them. People are more likely to come over to extreme views when they think they are being shat upon.

I understand what you are saying and it worries me somewhat.

I also give up.

[lush]

I understand what you are saying and it worries me somewhat.

161672[/snapback]

Does it worry you, because its the truth, and that it shouldnt be?

[MC Prussian]

Swiss, thousands of muslims voted for the the man that guides us to the US. I for one dont wana be part of the uk/us coalition.

All bad people, regardless of religious or political or whatever belief, are worth exposing. If you can put me intouch with other faiths that are doing bad, then i`ll expose them aswell.

I cannot communicate with a faith (islam) that thinks slaying pagans because they attack them, is justyfiable, sorry, its not right. IT IS NOT WHAT BRITAIN IS ABOUT, it is anti-british.

When islam denounces such evil behaviour, is when i can feel comfortable with it.

"You spread various rumours with the intent to scare people. Throw around religious profanities. And while everybody is engaged in a hectic debate, you sit aside. Watch. And enjoy the stir you caused, amused"

Proove it? or shut up!!

161671[/snapback]

I have yet to hear words of wisdom coming out of your infantile mouth.

You just pick minor points out of everybody's comments and try to prove a point there. You have not read the Koran, so you just pick a single passage out of it that speaks about "slaying pagans". Have you read this passage? Does it say what it says or does it say what you want to believe it to say?

If you can say "yes" to the second part, then congratulations! You are a religiously blinded man! Hello in the Middle Age again!!!

"Swiss, thousands of muslims voted for the the man that guides us to the US. I for one dont wana be part of the uk/us coalition."

And what about the hundreds of thousands of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. etc. etc.? You really must be scared Lush! Your argumentations become ridiculous.

"Proove"? I always have a dictionary at hand, in case of doubt. I am not English, you see? Did I catch you here or are you just a generally nervous, easily scared person?

And no. I won't shut up. This is an open messageboard. I am respected with the people on here. You aren't. Various other comments prove it.

And have you read the article in the meantime?

[lush]

swiss

[MC Prussian]

swiss

161683[/snapback]

Is that your final comment? Or are you just surprised to find a strong opposing Swiss voice for once? To hell with this "Neutrality" crap. Nobody is neutral.

*Disappointed*

[lush]

Is that your final comment?

*Disappointed*

161684[/snapback]

When you reply to what ive wrote you, i`ll reply back.

[MC Prussian]

When you reply to what ive wrote you, i`ll reply back.

161686[/snapback]

Not before you start writing in proper English, babe.

On a sidenote, how did you like the article in the Guardian? You know, the one talking about "football fans are idiots" in the headline?

Which brings us back to what Foxestalk is really all about. Football.

*Sighs a breath of relief*

[Fox Shagger]

Lush you are extremely stupid, you take 1 verse out of the 6346 verses in the Quran, conveniently not quoting the full verse and manipuating it. You interpret this verse wrongly and spread your rubbish. You are hardly an Islamic Scholar, you do not know anything about the 360 pagan tribes that this verse is referring to so stop spreading your rubbish unless you have some knowlege about the Quran.

[MC Prussian]

Lush you are extremely stupid, you take 1 verse out of the 6346 verses in the Quran, conveniently not quoting the full verse and manipuating it. You interpret this verse wrongly and spread your rubbish. You are hardly an Islamic Scholar, you do not know anything about the 360 pagan tribes that this verse is referring to so stop spreading your rubbish unless you have some knowlege about the Quran.

161692[/snapback]

Thank you for the support.

Btw: "Lush has left the building!"

[Fox Shagger]

Thank you for the support.

Btw: "Lush has left the building!"

161697[/snapback]

Hehe no problem

[Rincewind]

Does it worry you, because its the truth, and that it shouldnt be?

I'm worried on your behalf and for mankind if the message you are putting out is listened to. Hitler tried the same methods. He picked on certain people and told the German people that they were to blame for the depression.

Many people on here have set out clear arguments against what you are saying but you still go back to one line from the Koran written thousands of years ago and apply it to modern day Britain.

Why not look for the peaceful passages and then pass them onto the Muslims instead of antagonising the moderates even further.

That is what worries me. Your rantings are stirring up hatred between Man and Man when we should be looking for peaceful ways to solve the problem. To resolve disagreements you have to empaphise with your opponent. You have to acknowledge other peoples point of view. I'm afraid this you have failed to do. It isn't obvious to you because you have a way of selecting parts of peoples posts and using them in a misleading way.

Do you understand me?

Have I made myself clear?

[Rincewind]

Dawa: What does Islam say about killing 'pagans,' 'infidels,' 'nonbelievers' and other

In a message dated 9/19/2004 7:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, azim writes:

How do I reply to some critics in surah taubah verse 05 Allah states:

"slay the Pagans wherever ye find them"

. Answer:

First thing you do is download the Quran from our site at:

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/downloads/noblequran.exe

Then go to the verse in question and read the Arabic, then the English, then the transliteration (making the sounds with English letters).

Then compare the meaning to what you have said.

Now here is an example of how you might answer those folks with the harsh questions:

Thank you for your interest in Islam and the Muslims.

_________________________________________________________

Now let us begin to answer by correcting some mistakes in the 'question' itself:

The word used most often in Quran, that is so often mistranslated as kill; slay; or slaughter is not jihad, it is qital and if you look to the Arabic, you will quickly understand this word in today's usage would clearly be combat.

Thanks so much for your kind question.

_______________________

FREE QURAN to download:

www.IslamTomorrow.com/downloads/noblequran.exe

Please visit our website for more about Islam Yesterday, Tomorrow and Always

So the word 'slay/kill is mistranslated and the correct translation is fight or combat.

Of course it depends on where you get the translation and which one you choose to believe.

At least we have more than one choice now.

Just did a search and there are one or two sites which give the story as to where this originates.

Research is a wonderful thing.

[Thracian]

I know 100% that in Leicestershire at least all training is postponed since last year and that white and ethnic recruits are waiting together.    Also, I know that since the Lawerence enquiry, equality in the visible aspects of the Police such as training mean that recruits aren't being made to wait on the basis of colour.

Like I say, the NHS i don't know so much about.

161479[/snapback]

Thanks Kenicfc and Dunc for your feedback. Always informative. What a pity the debates on this subject always deteriorate into a slanging match over some obscure quote.

It really doesn't help to pick quotes up out of context or that were written at a different time, with different values and in different situations.

Anyone can pick a word or too from a text and pull it apart without constructively helping the debate. It is bad enough having Muslim religious zealots abusing these quotes without adding to the problem.

You must wonder why I even get involved in this subject.

I suppose I would like the moderate Muslims living here to show that they love this country as I do, that they respect its laws and value its inclination towards fairness, tolerance and decency.

There is a battle going on against extremism and it is a battle which, if lost will prove a sad, sad day for both the Christian and Muslim communities. Did anyone see the Iranian man and his wife on television today so obviously terrified of being returned to that regime where he believes he will be tortured.

Of course he may have been lying or exagerrating. He may have been acting wondrously. But I already know that people are tortured in Iran(often for nothing worse than having views which are contrary to those in power), they are tortured in Iraq, in Jordan and in other states often where the zealots hold power.

Does anyone in their right mind want that here?. Certainly I don't and I don't believe that the moderate Muslims want it either.

We must work together to defeat extremism. We must stress the values of fairness, decency and tolerance. Religion should be a conduit for goodness not evil, a vehicle for kindness and the betterment of people's situations.

No religion should be used as a means of gaining power over people and the control of peoples minds. Can anything be more despicable.

If the moderate Muslims would help get that over too...

If they would emphasise the good in this society, the future offered to all in this society, the value we place on women in this society and the opportunities we offer them as a matter of course, there will be little fuel for the zealots drive their hatred.

This is what I hope will happen and this is whyI get involved in this debate. Even when the debate itself is sometimes abused.

[MC Prussian]

Dawa: What does Islam say about killing 'pagans,' 'infidels,' 'nonbelievers' and other   

In a message dated 9/19/2004 7:23:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, azim writes:

How do I reply to some critics in surah taubah verse 05 Allah states:

"slay the Pagans wherever ye find them"

. Answer:

First thing you do is download the Quran from our site at:

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/downloads/noblequran.exe

Then go to the verse in question and read the Arabic, then the English, then the transliteration (making the sounds with English letters).

Then compare the meaning to what you have said.

Now here is an example of how you might answer those folks with the harsh questions:

Thank you for your interest in Islam and the Muslims.

_________________________________________________________

Now let us begin to answer by correcting some mistakes in the 'question' itself:

The word used most often in Quran, that is so often mistranslated as kill; slay; or slaughter is not jihad, it is qital and if you look to the Arabic, you will quickly understand this word in today's usage would clearly be combat.

Thanks so much for your kind question.

_______________________

FREE QURAN to download:

www.IslamTomorrow.com/downloads/noblequran.exe

Please visit our website for more about Islam Yesterday, Tomorrow and Always

So the word 'slay/kill is mistranslated and the correct translation is fight or combat.

Of course it depends on where you get the translation and which one you choose to believe.

At least we have more than one choice now.

Just did a search and there are one or two sites which give the story as to where this originates.

Research is a wonderful thing.

161755[/snapback]

If only more people would follow your example, Ken. We would have such a much more open-minded and tolerant society...

Kudos!

[lush]

Not before you start writing in proper English, babe.

On a sidenote, how did you like the article in the Guardian? You know, the one talking about "football fans are idiots" in the headline?

Which brings us back to what Foxestalk is really all about. Football.

161688[/snapback]

Are you trying to chat me up

You know what they say about mixing drinks, i just dont want a thread hangover

lets talk about general football

[lush]

Lush you are extremely stupid, you take 1 verse out of the 6346 verses in the Quran, conveniently not quoting the full verse and manipuating it .

161692[/snapback]

Obviously you havnt a clue whats been said, so i`d like to ask you this:

Do you think it would be ok, for you to murder a forest fan, if a forest fan attacked a city fan?