Benefits Street

[Alf Bentley]

Feeling sorry for white dee, her continuous laughter and jovial nature clearly just a front covering her soul crushing depression.

 

You might be right there, Moose. Certainly, my mate who killed himself a couple of years back after being diagnosed with depression was one of the most upbeat people you could meet. I've not known many depressives, but have known half a dozen with psychosis-type diagnoses and they are mainly friendly, outgoing, intelligent people, too.

 

I'm sure they've edited out all of the bits where the residents are trying to learn new skills and applying for jobs.

It's unfair on them that they are shown as people who sit around doing nothing all do, bemused why they can't get work.

 

I'm not sure whether you're being straight or sarcastic there, Legend. You have a point, anyway.

 

Also, there's been almost no depiction of people having been told to look for work, or helped to find work or training, by the Jobcentre, at least.

 

This bears out what my nephew tells me: that the Jobcentre is just interested in processing claimants, and preferably getting a load of them off their books through sanctions. He reckons that they don't really have the time to offer advice - or even threats of sanctions - they just want to check whether people are jumping through statistical hoops and to stop their benefits if not.

 

He's had his benefits stopped again for the 2nd time in 4 months (after nearly 7 years working from age 16). Due to having the wrong computer login details (DK if that was his fault or theirs), he was unable to input info about jobs he'd applied for between Xmas and New Year. So, he printed off email responses to job applications and took them to the local Jobcentre, who said they'd forward them to the central claims office, but didn't, so his benefits were stopped automatically. This meant that he couldn't pay his rent and was threatened with eviction and could only buy food with money provided by my ill, elderly parents who are in the final stages of trying to move house. He's unlucky in that most of the people whom he might be able to rely on for assistance are either skint or have problems of their own...but lucky in that at least he has a few people who can help. Some others would end up on the street, in homeless hostels or at least sofa-surfing between friends' houses, as a result of such treatment.

 

He absolutely wants to work, is applying for jobs and had a couple of interviews last week. He'd have been able to get on with it better if he'd not had to spend endless hours applying for an emergency benefits payment, completing a benefits appeal, providing extra information demanded in response to that appeal, trying to avoid further costs/eviction etc.

 

It seems like the Jobcentre is more interested in kicking people for being out of work or stopping their benefits than helping them to get back into work. Seems crazy to me, but maybe that's what Joe Public really wants. If the economy is booming and vacancies are increasing, it might be more useful to help people find work (and target sanctions on those really taking the piss).

[Rincewind]

Not much time, dominoes tonight but the JC thought process is more sanctions less unemployed. They are doing their ob. The Government is happer. The public is happy.

Did you know you can syill claim HB if sanctioned?

[MooseBreath]

I only caught the first 15 minutes or so. In that time the guy trying to start the scrap business basically said that a lot of the residents of the street just couldn't be bothered to get a job. I think he described them as "lazy". That's from someone who knows these people personally.

Also caught a bit about the guy with the steady job. He seemed to have the most genuine personal issues out of the lot of them, and yet appeared to be capable of aquiring skills and holding down a decent job with ease.

At the end of the day you can make all the excuses you like for those people, but they're obviously not exactly trying their hardest to find work.

[Thracian]

Thrac has been in he/she's behind for so long to even bother to find out!!

 

 

Singhy, I'm over 65 now - the only "behind" I'm bothered about is whether my pension's late! . 

[Alf Bentley]

I only caught the first 15 minutes or so. In that time the guy trying to start the scrap business basically said that a lot of the residents of the street just couldn't be bothered to get a job. I think he described them as "lazy". That's from someone who knows these people personally.

Also caught a bit about the guy with the steady job. He seemed to have the most genuine personal issues out of the lot of them, and yet appeared to be capable of aquiring skills and holding down a decent job with ease.

At the end of the day you can make all the excuses you like for those people, but they're obviously not exactly trying their hardest to find work.

 

In life, all sorts of people say all sorts of things about all sorts of other people, which may or may not be true. As I recall, White Dee said that both Fungi and Tich (Zimbabwean scrapman) were "lovely". I've no idea whether she's right about both or either - or whether Tich's "lazy" comment was justified. Some people are indeed unemployed because they don't want to work and need vigorous encouragement to get off their arses. Others are trying hard to get work. Others again are incapable of working, are under-informed about how to go about it or need help/basic skills to become employable.

 

My understanding is that job seekers have to sign up to a contract, involving applying for a certain number of jobs per week or whatever - and that those on sickness benefits are being given rigorous assessments. So, how come all these "lazy scroungers" are getting away with it, in your view? If they're fit to work, then surely they should be being helped/pushed to work - and sanctioned if they don't make any effort?

 

My nephew keeps getting sanctioned, and he's fit and eager to work - and applying for lots of jobs, but keeps getting his benefits stopped on technicalities. If they're offering so little help and being so ruthless with people who don't deserve it, why would they let supposedly lazy people who don't want to work sit on their arses without being penalised? 

[MooseBreath]

Because they know how to play the system. They've learned what they can and can't get away with. Even Rincewind will tell you that. He's met loads of people who have become expert in navigating the welfare system.

[Captain...]

I think it is clear that the job centre is not fit for purpose, either it isn't finding people jobs or they are letting people get away with playing the system.

What I don't get is why doesn't the job centre act like a temp agency? I'm pretty sure with government backing it could under cut actual temp agencies, any temp requirements skilled or unskilled they just look into their vast database of unemployed people and send out someone with appropriate abilities. Obviously you don't send someone with physical disabilities to construction site. I would set up as everyday you work you get £50 everyday you don't you get a tenner, you refuse a reasonable request to work or get an unsatisfactory response from the client you get sanctioned.

Temp agencies make a serious profit and if managed well this can be put back in to fund training sessions and improve the skills of the unemployed workforce.

[Guest MattP]

I'm just watching it now Alf.

First part not that interesting, another immigrant showing the locals how to try and work though while the British come up with excuse after excuse to avoid it.

White Dee shouting fcuk me in the middle of the street while being presented with a cake surrounded by children.

She really is all class, suppose she's developed tourettes now mind.....

[Guest MattP]

The IT worker seems a nice fella, shame he'll have to keep putting up with people breaking in as they know he is at work.

Depressing existence mind, doesn't seem to have any mates.

Leaves for work at 9am mind, sounds like a council position

[Guest MattP]

Unemployed Simba - another Iphone. Not bad considering I had to scale down to a Samsung.

[Guest MattP]

Weird seeing Fungi like this, seems shit scared of cancer but complete oblivious to the fact instead he's killing himself .

Cancer might actually be the best thing for him, if that doesn't make him appreciate and try to do something with his life nothing will.

[Guest MattP]

At least he's had a shower today, because showering every day isn't normal is it?

[Guest MattP]

A Sunday and two people turn up for the litter pick?

They actually don't care about living in shit do they?

Suppose they were all in church.

[Guest MattP]

Fungi has no cancer, back on the booze now I bet.

Next time looks interesting, good to hear Dee admit that they made it too easy to sit back and live on benefits. Hope she defines who she means by they.

Hopefully some proper questions will be asked of them.

Now I better stop talking to myself and go to bed.

[SOCCERROO FOX]

No need to watch the show, just get Matts run down.

[Alf Bentley]

Because they know how to play the system. They've learned what they can and can't get away with. Even Rincewind will tell you that. He's met loads of people who have become expert in navigating the welfare system.

 

I know that some people do that. On Jobseeker's, though, to play the system, you'd at least be contractually obliged to apply for a certain number of jobs. White Dee is on the sick, probably Fungi, too, but the programme should have shown some of them applying for jobs or talking about medical assessments, because to play the system you'd have to deal with one or the other - you couldn't just do nothing and keep receiving benefits. 

 

I think it is clear that the job centre is not fit for purpose, either it isn't finding people jobs or they are letting people get away with playing the system.

What I don't get is why doesn't the job centre act like a temp agency?

 

In the old days, Job Centres were separate from offices dealing with Unemployment Benefit (now Jobseekers' Allowance), so you went to different places to look for jobs and to claim benefits. They were merged some years back - at least partly to make a stronger connection between getting the dole and looking for work. My impression recently is that there's very little focus on helping people look for work. It all seems to be about doling out benefits, and harassing as many people as possible, without helping them find work - generally harassing the wrong people; people who want work, not those playing the system, who should be harassed.

 

The IT worker seems a nice fella, shame he'll have to keep putting up with people breaking in as they know he is at work.

 

Tbf, people clearly already know that he's in the minority who work and he didn't mention his gaff being broken into - just idiots throwing crap over his fence.

 

Unemployed Simba - another Iphone. Not bad considering I had to scale down to a Samsung.

 

He did say that he'd been working before his approved immigration status expired. However, it did sound as if that was his fault - and he seemed to be collapsing into a stew of booze. 

 

Weird seeing Fungi like this, seems shit scared of cancer but complete oblivious to the fact instead he's killing himself .

Cancer might actually be the best thing for him, if that doesn't make him appreciate and try to do something with his life nothing will.

 

Alcoholism and other addictions are very powerful - psychologically, as much as the physical dependency, which can be conquered within a few days. I mentioned before my best mate who drank himself to death a year ago. He did that over a number of years, while several people tried everything to persuade him to change his ways. He had everything to live for (sons just entering adulthood, loads of friends, an excellent brain, an interesting and outgoing personality, a range of interests, about to come into some money). At times, I got the impression that he realised what he was doing to himself (he started arranging his funeral ceremony etc), but at others he was absolutely in denial, finding excuses not to attend medical appointments, saying that it was just that he had depression (never diagnosed, I don't think) and just liked to drink a bit too much (like, white cider from morning to night, 7 days a week!)....and this was a highly intelligent, wilful man with everything to live for. Addiction is a powerful force, as I said...

 

Yes, next week should be interesting!

[Rincewind]

No need to watch the show, just get Matts run down.

[MrSpaM]

I know that some people do that. On Jobseeker's, though, to play the system, you'd at least be contractually obliged to apply for a certain number of jobs. White Dee is on the sick, probably Fungi, too, but the programme should have shown some of them applying for jobs or talking about medical assessments, because to play the system you'd have to deal with one or the other - you couldn't just do nothing and keep receiving benefits. 

 

Step 1 : Write down jobs you have searched for on the internet but don't actually apply for any of them

Step 2 : Claim you never got a reply off any of them when going to job center interview

Step 3 : Collect benefits

Step 4 : Return to step one

 

I know at least one person that got away with doing this for 8 years, it even got to the point where they had cut down his job seekers interviews to once a month, so literally all he had to do was turn up to the job center once a month with a list of jobs he'd 'applied' for and waited for the cash to roll in. Didn't go to a single job interview in those 8 years.

[Captain...]

Step 1 : Write down jobs you have searched for on the internet but don't actually apply for any of them

Step 2 : Claim you never got a reply off any of them when going to job center interview

Step 3 : Collect benefits

Step 4 : Return to step one

 

I know at least one person that got away with doing this for 8 years, it even got to the point where they had cut down his job seekers interviews to once a month, so literally all he had to do was turn up to the job center once a month with a list of jobs he'd 'applied' for and waited for the cash to roll in.

 

There in lies the problem, it comes up every time we discuss benefits, the issue is not the amount of money that is provided, but that it is too easy to get that money, to be written off as sick, to be lost in the system. We need the job centre to employ people that actually know how to get people back in work not just process their forms and give them money. Look at Lamby he got lots of useful advice and a kick up the arse on here, and he got a job, no idea how much use that advice was, but having that pressure to do it, or be abused, along with practical advice I'm sure helped.

 

The problem is the solution is at odds with the government's current mindset, and that is investment, recruiting more job centre staff (I wonder if they know any unemployed people looking for work), train them properly, improve communication and change the whole philosophy, but all of that takes time and money when all the Government wants to do is cut costs, but if you run it like a recruitment agency, sell the unemployed as a work force, rather than give them away for free, then you can make a tidy profit.

[Rincewind]

A lot of the time the queue when you sign on is pretty long so the staff never had time to look at each card closely. I filled the card  in full when I only needed to put down 3 per week. My writings not great so it would have took longer to read. I applied for at least 6 genuine ones though but I was not hopeful of even getting an interview because of experience. The others I sent a short email to say I was interested and would like further details.

I did this only after being sanctioned and the time to being legible for Pension Credits only a few months away. Before that I was being selective in my applications gearing them to what I thought I could do.

I doubt that unless you were claiming other benefits you could manage on JSA alone for too long. For a single person it is £71 PW.

That would not keep you in beer and fags long. You would need some other income. I was struggling and my  bank balance was going down fast. If it was not for Pension Credit I would now be in the red.

I was told at the JC just before leaving my first job that they ould not help with a job search or process benefits until I had left even though I could tell then the date of leaving. I had to wait until the day of leaving then sign on.

I was naive the most recent time two years ago so was called to more interviews and my card scrutinized more. The way you are treated as a 'newbie' is awful it encourages you to play the system more. Not something I wanted to do but its either that or have zero income.

[Alf Bentley]

Step 1 : Write down jobs you have searched for on the internet but don't actually apply for any of them

Step 2 : Claim you never got a reply off any of them when going to job center interview

Step 3 : Collect benefits

Step 4 : Return to step one

 

I know at least one person that got away with doing this for 8 years, it even got to the point where they had cut down his job seekers interviews to once a month, so literally all he had to do was turn up to the job center once a month with a list of jobs he'd 'applied' for and waited for the cash to roll in. Didn't go to a single job interview in those 8 years.

 

I wonder how typical or recent that was? If that's true and widespread, then it's absolutely stupid. The people who are long-term unemployed are precisely the people whom resources should be focused on - to help them find work/retrain, in the first instance, and to compel them to get lively if they don't do it voluntarily. Most people on the dole are out of work for a few weeks/months, then back in work - and would get back into work with very little assistance/compulsion. So, it's crazy that resources are being used to harass the short-term unemployed, who aren't a serious problem.

 

I wonder how typical your story is, though. A couple of years ago, before the recent crackdown, an unemployed mate of mine (now in work) had his benefits stopped precisely because he'd failed to apply for a computer programming job suggested by the Job Centre. As he only had basic IT skills, he correctly concluded that he'd be wasting his time So unless he voluntarily told them that he'd not applied, they must have checked with the employer. If Job Centres don't do that, they should - but focus it on the long-term unemployed who've been confirmed as fit for work and not in need of retraining. It wouldn't take much to phone 1 of the employers they said they'd applied to, say every couple of weeks.

 

[...] if you run it like a recruitment agency, sell the unemployed as a work force, rather than give them away for free, then you can make a tidy profit.

 

Would that work, I wonder? A lot of vacancies, particularly senior ones, are filled through adverts in the press or contact online. Many employers also choose to recruit via employment agencies, when the Job Centre is free (I think) and they have to pay the agencies - there must be reasons for that. To compete and make a profit, I think Job Centres would not only have to massively improve their service, but would also have to significantly improve the calibre of the applicants that they were trying to sell to employers. I appreciate that you recognise the need for investment, but it seems like a truly massive, long-term transformation would be required, taking years to achieve.

[Rincewind]

As I said before I was sanctioned for not applying for a job which after checking on the website and looking at the application form I thought it obvious that I would not even get an interview. It required a driving license and to be physically fit. I did not fit either. It was at Glen Parva detention Centre in charge of young offenders. I thought that with no experience handling young offenders I might have been putting the safety of others at risk. If it was just sitting in an office handling paperwork I would have been there like a shot.

I found out that common sense does not come into it as far as the JC are concerned so thereafter applied for anything which they were happy with. So I imagine that is what a lot of the long time unemployed do. The staff at the centre know who they are but cannot do anything because they are complying with the rules and applying for jobs and ticking the right boxes.

It is for the employer to say a person is unsuitable not the applicant even if it means going through three times as many CV's that is needed.

[MrSpaM]

I wonder how typical your story is, though. A couple of years ago, before the recent crackdown, an unemployed mate of mine (now in work) had his benefits stopped precisely because he'd failed to apply for a computer programming job suggested by the Job Centre. As he only had basic IT skills, he correctly concluded that he'd be wasting his time So unless he voluntarily told them that he'd not applied, they must have checked with the employer. If Job Centres don't do that, they should - but focus it on the long-term unemployed who've been confirmed as fit for work and not in need of retraining. It wouldn't take much to phone 1 of the employers they said they'd applied to, say every couple of weeks.

 

They are supposed to ring and check the companies that you've applied to, but my mate reckoned they gave up doing that after the first two months, after that they didn't check up on him once. Granted in the past six months they started pushing him into getting a job and threatening to cut his benefits, which actually worked and he's now got a part time job and has stopped claiming, but it just goes to show how easy the system has been to swindle over the past 8-10 years.

[Alf Bentley]

They are supposed to ring and check the companies that you've applied to, but my mate reckoned they gave up doing that after the first two months, after that they didn't check up on him once. Granted in the past six months they started pushing him into getting a job and threatening to cut his benefits, which actually worked and he's now got a part time job and has stopped claiming, but it just goes to show how easy the system has been to swindle over the past 8-10 years.

 

Interesting.... They should do the opposite! Not bother too much with people who've been signed on a for a few weeks, unless they ask for help, and concentrate on those who've been out of work longer, who are more likely to need either help/advice or a kick up the arse.

[breadandcheese]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/02/ill-stand-as-an-mp-white-dees-spectator-diary/ 

 

White Dee writing for the speccy.