DennisNedry Posted 12 April 2014 Posted 12 April 2014 You mean all of them or just the ones who claim?, as its been proven that EU immigrants put more into our economy than they take out. But we've had this discussion before, we go round and round. If people want to lump all or the majority of immigrants as benefit scroungers despite all the facts that prove that's untrue then go ahead it's all pretty boring so I'll leave it to others. I mean the ones who claim mate. If a Romanian family want to come here, find work, and then rent or buy a house then good on them, and I wouldn't begrudge them that opportunity at all. However the ones who come here exclusively for benefits/a free house should, in my opinion, be forcibly deported.
Rincewind Posted 12 April 2014 Posted 12 April 2014 Yes of course it is. I'll let you have that one and keep out of the discussion.
leicsmac Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 You've been away too long. Even the guardian has stopped believing in the Scandinavian utopia nonsense. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/scandinavian-miracle-denmark-finland-iceland-norway-sweden Makes you wonder what kind of absolute mess they would be in if they weren't blessed with such an abundance of hugely profitable natural resources. One columnists personal attack on the Scandinavian countries does not an accurate assessment of those nations quality of life make. "Still one man's view: an impressionistic, opinionated travelogue rather than a definitive academic text", as said the author himself.The rebuttals by the Scandinavian authors themselves make interesting reading too. I'm sure you could come up with some other articles regarding financial trouble etc over there...but the vast majority of surveys seem to say that most of them do enjoy a much better quality of life than we do. Of course such a term is subjective, mind you.
The God Emperor Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 Scandinavia succeeds despite it's high tax, high spend government. They do everything else right, leave the economy to the market, injecting a healthy dose of capitalist competition into their education system and having sound money. It's most successful periods have always come when they had a low tax, low spend limited government. they abandoned this in the 60's and lived off of their previous successes until they got into trouble and had to start rolling back the state in the 90's. since then rolling back the state has been what the Scandinavian governments have been doing, except in brief periods of socialist government.
Rincewind Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 figures from the Government’s own Office of Budget Responsibility http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-taxpayers-fork-out-3300089
leicsmac Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 Scandinavia succeeds despite it's high tax, high spend government. They do everything else right, leave the economy to the market, injecting a healthy dose of capitalist competition into their education system and having sound money. It's most successful periods have always come when they had a low tax, low spend limited government. they abandoned this in the 60's and lived off of their previous successes until they got into trouble and had to start rolling back the state in the 90's. since then rolling back the state has been what the Scandinavian governments have been doing, except in brief periods of socialist government. Always thought the Scandinavian education systems were competitive, but government-controlled. Though I may be wrong there. Certainly compared to most of the rest of Europe their tax rate (especially for high earners) is still high, even if it has decreased compared to a few decades ago. I do also think being lucky with resources and managing the natural resources they have in an efficient fashion had been spectacularly successful for them, and has led to a shitload of tax money for public services which has (probably) helped with the overall quality of life there. Having the birds there look the way they do probably helps too. Remember reading an article saying that Norways (largely nationalised) oil industry has been so successful through investing profit from it in other things they pretty much shrugged off the effects of the global recession?
DennisNedry Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 figures from the Government’s own Office of Budget Responsibility http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-taxpayers-fork-out-3300089 The Mirror is a shit rag, basically the left wing version of the just-as-shit Sun. Why do people call it the Bedroom Tax? Money isn't being TAKEN from people, they're just GETTING less.
leicsmac Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 The Mirror is a shit rag, basically the left wing version of the just-as-shit Sun. Why do people call it the Bedroom Tax? Money isn't being TAKEN from people, they're just GETTING less. Sorry Ken, I've got to agree with DN here. Quoting the Mirror as a left-winger is like quoting the Mail as a right-winger - both of them are sensationalist bollocks.
The God Emperor Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 Always thought the Scandinavian education systems were competitive, but government-controlled. Though I may be wrong there. Certainly compared to most of the rest of Europe their tax rate (especially for high earners) is still high, even if it has decreased compared to a few decades ago. I do also think being lucky with resources and managing the natural resources they have in an efficient fashion had been spectacularly successful for them, and has led to a shitload of tax money for public services which has (probably) helped with the overall quality of life there. Having the birds there look the way they do probably helps too. Remember reading an article saying that Norways (largely nationalised) oil industry has been so successful through investing profit from it in other things they pretty much shrugged off the effects of the global recession? correct, It's nationalised but it works on a voucher system. the money is tied to the child and the parent is able to choose what school they want their child to go to rather our system of "you live here so you go where we tell you to go". It works very well due to subjecting education to market. But I doubt it would get implemented here because the teacher's unions wouldn't like and of course it would take some bureaucrat in Westminster to admit they were wrong. Their nationalised industries seem operate a lot like private companies. But of course if they went full Libertopian and privatised everything they would be even more successful
I am Rod Hull Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 The Mirror is a shit rag, basically the left wing version of the just-as-shit Sun. Why do people call it the Bedroom Tax? Money isn't being TAKEN from people, they're just GETTING less. There is a simple way of getting out of paying the so called bedroom tax, just tell the council that you have converted to Islam and slap a prayer mat in the middle of your new "prayer room". I`m not joking either, I know someone that did it.
Rincewind Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 The problem is that councils are taking the word of landlords without checking on what the room is used for. And the criteria is that the room should be able to be used as a bedroom. Those who have to move into private housing are now paying higher rents therefore claiming MORE benefits. Who do some of the big private landlords support Tory or Labour? The figures quoted are taken from the Government own figures and forcasts and can be checked. I am not keen on the Mirror either but that was the link I found. I doubt the Mail would publish it as it would not be popular with its readership. I am sure the details can be found elsewhere.
Strokes Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 The problem is that councils are taking the word of landlords without checking on what the room is used for. And the criteria is that the room should be able to be used as a bedroom. Those who have to move into private housing are now paying higher rents therefore claiming MORE benefits. Who do some of the big private landlords support Tory or Labour? The figures quoted are taken from the Government own figures and forcasts and can be checked. I am not keen on the Mirror either but that was the link I found. I doubt the Mail would publish it as it would not be popular with its readership. I am sure the details can be found elsewhere. The figures are forecasts and you dont believe government forecasts....right?
MooseBreath Posted 13 April 2014 Posted 13 April 2014 The mirror article attempts to imply that the increase in housing benefit expenditure is caused by the "bedroom tax", but obviously it is more to do with population increase and it isn't even clear whether or not those forecasts have been adjusted for inflation, which alone could explain most of that increase. Certainly makes a good case for cutting housing benefit further. Watching bbc panarama on benefits last week about all the people trying to refuse to leave their swanky tax payer funded london houses to move to birmingham. Once the "bedroom tax" has been driven through properly I want to see a big purge of all the people claiming thousands of pounds a month to live in london. They don't need to be there so get them out. After that I want to see all single people living alone in tax payer funded accommodation moved into shared houses. Finally we might start to make some savings and be able to divert money to people who deserve it.
Guest MattP Posted 14 April 2014 Posted 14 April 2014 Most of Scandinavia begs to differ. Mind you, their public funding and resultant high quality of life is backed by an impressive education system and ready business in extracting natural resources using a nationalised industry...hang on, didn't we have both of those things once upon a time? :-P You might be a little surprised when you return to the UK. The place is happier, busier and richer and you can now start to see it in everyday life life. Scandinavian still has one of the highest suicide rates in the World. Maybe they are so happy because all the sad people killed themselves? Stop making excuses for stealing people's hard earned money. It's disgraceful.
Guest MattP Posted 14 April 2014 Posted 14 April 2014 No thanks. I wont let a few immigrants who don't work overide the massive majority who are a benefit to this country. Of course you support the EU. You're rich. Your experience of it will be Polish nannies or a cheap wash for a BMW. Go and speak to the poor and how their wages are driven down because of saturating a jobs market or one of the nations now with mass unemployment, you get the other side. How you don't vote Tory I'll never know, you seem to pretty much support everything they say or do with your own opiions yet then say you hate them because "They are tories". It's really strange to read!
leicsmac Posted 14 April 2014 Posted 14 April 2014 You might be a little surprised when you return to the UK. The place is happier, busier and richer and you can now start to see it in everyday life life. Scandinavian still has one of the highest suicide rates in the World. Maybe they are so happy because all the sad people killed themselves? Stop making excuses for stealing people's hard earned money. It's disgraceful. You wanted an example of a country that works with a high tax rate, I gave you one. Perhaps they just don't see it as 'stealing'. Who knows? I do hope you're right about the UK recovering, it would be good to see it finally happening.
Guest MattP Posted 14 April 2014 Posted 14 April 2014 You wanted an example of a country that works with a high tax rate, I gave you one. Perhaps they just don't see it as 'stealing'. Who knows? I do hope you're right about the UK recovering, it would be good to see it finally happening. Certainly is, everything is busier, pubs and clubs are packed and the jobs market is just ridiculous. I've sent cvs out over the last few weeks and I'm actually choosing between which jobs I want rather than begging for an interview for one. Marvellous. They obviously don't see it as stealing, though this is also a country that finds it normal to pay 7 quid for a beer.
leicsmac Posted 14 April 2014 Posted 14 April 2014 Certainly is, everything is busier, pubs and clubs are packed and the jobs market is just ridiculous. I've sent cvs out over the last few weeks and I'm actually choosing between which jobs I want rather than begging for an interview for one. Marvellous. They obviously don't see it as stealing, though this is also a country that finds it normal to pay 7 quid for a beer. That's good to hear. Something to come back to then, evidently. Yeah, alcohol over there is ludicrously expensive, though it doesn't seem to stop them having a pretty good time from what I've heard.
Guest MattP Posted 14 April 2014 Posted 14 April 2014 Don't wait too long, it won't last when Miliband and Balls grab the credit card.
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