breadandcheese

We should have been out of sight. Awful finishing. I never like Enzo's subs. I don't think they ever have a positive impact.

I don't disagree it is good to have a third party source to verify. But you know that's not in Israel's control. The crime scene is in the Gaza Strip under Hamas control and has already been partially cleaned up.

I think that's fair. So I think we can agree it's odd that Hamas haven't done this to counter Israel and show it was an Israeli missile as per their assertion. I guess my original question is predicated on the dismissal that accompanied Israeli first responders talking about babies being mutilated during the Hamas terrorist attack. They eventually put out photos of dead babies (horrific photos, I wouldn't recommend searching them). Despite this, many people popped up saying these were AI generated photos and were fakes. Which leads me to wonder whether there is any proof that will satisfy. Edit: that last point wasn't aimed at you

That was my question. What evidence would satisfy? What is it the evidence people want to see?

Can I ask those doubting it as a failed Palestinian rocket launch what they need to see to believe the Israeli explanation?

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the person BBC verify have used is from a Jewish Lobby or is this your prejudice? For the record, Biden has accepted that it was a failed rocket from a Palestinian terrorist group (and cited American intelligence rather than Israeli). And journalists such as Mehdi Hassan have accepted evidence from trusted sources that it was most likely to be a misfiring Palestinian rocket.

You know it depends how it is reported. There can be little doubt how it was received by anyone watching/ listening.

It was contested quite quickly but Israeli response at the time was we are investigating but we had no planes in the area at that time.

But we do. We know it is contested. That's a fact. Yet this was not how the BBC presented (or other medis outlets, not just BBC). One BBC journalist in a report said he didn't see what else it could possibly be other than an Israeli airstrike. The impression to the listener/viewer is obvious.

I'm not saying they chose a side. But they fell below their journalistic standards effectively reporting fake news. This fake news has helped contribute to a febrile atmosphere that in last few hours has led to riots at Israeli and American consulates in the Middle East, a travel warning for Israelis to immediately leave Turkey due to security warnings, rioting against Abbas in West Bank, cancelled visits between Biden and king of Jordan and Abbas.

I didn't say it didn't but this hospital blast with the horrific loss of life is a conflict defining moment that can set off a whole host of nasty repercussions. Journalists should be professionally held to account.

It's on journalists more than Hamas. Some of the immediate reporting was abysmal. I understand why the first conclusion would be Israel, but a journalist is there to present evidence and not jump straight to any conclusion without supposedly demonstrating bias. Hamas once again find this tactic works. Look at the protests stoked up in the Arab world and Turkey. A new blood libel has been created. And police here will have to step up more patrols and spend more money policing the threat to the British Jewish community from the fear of lone wolf attacks as we saw in Brussels the other night.

What level of proof would you need to satisfy? Would you believe any proof Israel presents as it's not from a third party?

Agree. It's unacceptable and I hope pressure is applied to reverse this.

There is a belief that they can't beat Israel in war. But I don't subscribe to this. Or at least not in the way we think of winning or losing. If Hamas are still in power come the end of the horrible war, they will celebrate it as a win. And unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest they can't win a conventional war against Israel's military in Gaza or at least cause huge damage, with defensive traps and drone warfare. The dominance of heavy armour and tanks looks to have taken a dint with advances in small drones and loitering munition over the battlefield. Hamas are unfortunately a well trained militia army with some serious firepower, just like Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hamas are estimated to have 50,000 fighters. Hezbollah 100,000. To put that in context, the UK army has 112,000. So I know it always seems silly to suggest Israel will never be beaten and it's security is guaranteed but this isn't the case.