Dan

I heard a stat earlier that England have created less this tournament than Georgia and Poland. That's despite Georgia playing 4 games, Poland playing 3, and England playing 5 with two extra times, so actually 5.67 games, nearly double what Poland have played, against weaker opposition than Poland - who are consistently bad in tournaments themselves. People are mistaking what we've been so far for pragmatism. I'd call what Southgate offered in 2018 and 2020 pragmatism. This tournament we've been frankly dire. I don't see what I said in that "England need to substantially improve to win this" was wrong at all. As it happens I fancy France to win the tournament - despite the fact I think Spain have been far better than them so far.

I would call France this time around underwhelming. I'd call England frankly awful. If England retained this level of performance and won the tournament I'd say it's the worst side I've ever seen win a Euros or a World Cup.

The last time we played them in a tournament if you don't include the nations league. Quite like it when you get a fixture like that where you'd expect it happened often but it hasn't. This probably applies to both semis.

I increasingly think Kane is very overrated and that his record of never winning a trophy is not some fluke anomaly.

For my strong scepticism of this ownership, I do find myself agreeing with this. But then who knows - it's not a guarantee. I think we're approaching a level of ineptness where rolling the dice wouldn't be that big a risk. The Vichai point is interesting. I agree with you and I think it's quite an unpopular view, but that being said, I do think he'd have made some sort of changes before now. Even if Rudkin and Whelan survived I fail to believe without his business sense he'd have tweaked something. Top looks very fish out of water to me. I could forgive it somewhat if there wasn't such a hypocritical tone about it all, shake your head at the banners (which were proven totally correct), put out a statement playing the victim after overseeing relegation, but happy to be front and centre of promotion. I don't think these issues are going away.

They got away with one but have they? I think if we stay up this season they have. But we are relegation favourites for pretty good reason.

Bizarrely I think I'm more up for this than 2022/23. I had a proper sense of doom in 2022/23. At least this time the manager is actually going to do his best - even if we are likely to drop.

Koeman at his heart is pragmatic himself. I think he'll not play as openly here as he has done against sides he'd have probably backed them to beat - Poland, Romania, Turkey, even Austria in a game that was a bit of a free hit because they were already through. They drew 0-0 with France in the groups. I'm still inclined to think a low scorer.

My faith has diminished basically beyond repair with this lot as its clear they hold zero standards that they claim to. The non-sacking of Rodgers at so many obvious points in 2022. The backing of him in January 2023 after serving up that he had done which have led to us breaking financial rules. The sacking of him coming at the most useless possible time. The fact those responsible were tasked with marking their own homework and telling us everything was fine. The breaking of financial rules by a mile. The fact you can oversee all of this and everybody responsible is still in place. This is without even mentioning the abysmal fan engagement. It's a badly run operation relying on overperformance from people like Cooper and Glover, and if they do it, those above will feel vindicated despite their blatant mismanagement.

It is quite funny isn't it but he's only a kid to be fair to him. He seems like a goodun.

He was 10 when we won the league

Southgate's strength lies in building a tight knit squad where the players get on, but I think that's simply way too limited to win a tournament. His way works better without expectation. Tactically it's been an absolute car crash, he doesn't carry the strength to make tougher decisions on who should and shouldn't be playing. It's quite clear to me at this point you can't play all of Saka, Foden, Bellingham and Kane - but he's fallen into the shoehorning pitfall that England managers of old have done. There's been little momentum here. It's a complete fluke he's in the semi final with this performance. I've never known luck like it and he's had enough in previous tournaments. 5 points in a weak group yet somehow ends up winning it because all three other games are draws landing us on the kind half of the draw, made even kinder by France blowing it against an already eliminated Poland. Somehow even dodges Holland in the round of 16 due to Georgia beating Portugal and ends up with Slovakia - who are seconds from knocking us out but for a genuinely iconic goal. Moment of magic saves him against Switzerland. I think most tournament winners have ups and downs, they survive their bad days and deliver on their good. England haven't turned in a performance better than 5/10 for me. Teams this bad don't win tournaments. We've got to drastically improve just to beat Holland, let alone France or Spain.

It is strange - I've heard less 'its coming home' than in any of the previous three tournaments and that's despite this one falling brilliantly for us for the most part. I sensed it picked up a bit yesterday but it's still not quite the same. It just feels so built on sand. Lose the shootout yesterday and I think even Southgate's most ardent defenders would want him out. Even in this thread - there's usually a lot of arguing between the critical side and the supportive. I feel like the critical is almost everybody whereas in previous it felt more balanced. I just think we're too bad to win it. It would eclipse Portugal 2016 for me. I think you can forgive Greece - they were a huge underdog. We are a favourite (rightfully, our squad is 4th best minimum for me) yet haven't put together a good 90 minutes once all tournament. We've not actually won a game in 90 minutes in 4 games against Switzerland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Denmark. It's hilarious to think you could have a final of this against a team who've yet to actually score in open play. Would be tournament football on steroids.

Feel like it's another that'll go all the way. I really can't put my finger on how highly I rate this Netherlands side. Something tells me they aren't that good, but they've done pretty well in these knockouts. They have something about them. Feel like there is vulnerability to them though. I can see a Croatia 2018 type game - England take the lead this time but end up going out.

He's got cult hero vibes. Supposedly scores big goals and got a good name. That usually helps.

A comparison to Vardy is pointless, that gives nearly anyone a pass at any point. The fact he's so exceptional means he's a bad example. I'm quite confident that De Cordova-Reid is better than McAteer.

On a sensible contract this really isn't bad addition for me. He's also been part of a side who has done what we're hoping to do this season.

Didn't even get Ronaldo tears what a revolting game of football.

I do think this is Southgate's aim as well.

These tournaments always reward this shite. Guarantee Spain lose the semi.

These two and England can always be relied on to stink a tournament out no matter what level of ability. France are bafflingly good at keeping teams at arms length. So many times you think they've conceded and they just don't.

Still not a single open play goal from France

Spain Germany ended up being quite good after a pretty bitty first half. This is just awful and I think it was predictable for anyone who has watched enough of these two over the years. Martinez continuing the Ronaldo pandering is a mistake too. I think at this stage he has to be a sub.

Sooooooo bad

As boring as expected from these two.