HighPeakFox Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 1 hour ago, Col city fan said: Mate. That's how FT has been for years. I've seen an amazing amount of hypocrisy on here...sometimes I've changed like the bloody wind. Don't keep letting it wind you up! You seem a very decent chap but are you sure this place is right for you? Nice of you to say. I'm rather less wound up than you might imagine, occasionally I just get buffoonery overload.
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 4 hours ago, Col city fan said: How the Hell can you post that most of our players were in the form of their lives last season, effectively punching above their weight, and that our natural position is top end Championship, and in the same breath say this season we'd finish top 6! I told you you were spouting nonsense! Are you being deliberately dense? Our 'natural position' is nothing to do with the current group of players. It's based on what we've done over 133 years of existence. Every now and then you get a crop of players who do better or worse than that, but that's just noise around the mean. Read up on the club's history. In the summer I thought we'd do a lot better than we have done but that's not the same as saying I expected a permanent shift in our natural position. I didn't consider the factors that we've seen influence our performance. I've now seen them and have adjusted my expectations accordingly. That strikes me as sensible. I genuinely think you're a bit stupid. Reading comprehension isn't your strong point.
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 5 hours ago, Crinklyfox said: The history of the club in my lifetime backs this up, however it doesn't have to stay that way and the owners, and hopefully a lot of the supporters, want to move on from that. The football league is littered with 'big clubs' whose glory days have passed; similarly, there are 'big clubs' today that were not always so. It may be that despite all efforts City never become a 'big club', but we should not consider ourselves bound by our history. No-one achieves greatness by believing that they cannot do so. Years ago I responded to a post which claimed that we would be happier in the Championship with a similar message. I'm glad that the club didn't accept mediocrity then and I don't believe they will do so now. For me it is still onwards and upwards. It doesn't have to stay that way. Things can change. But that change is very difficult to achieve and it takes more than a solitary title win to manage it. The owners can want to move us on as much as they want, but it isn't really down to them. They don't have the money of the owners of Chelsea or Man City so they can't force us into the picture like they did. The current 'big clubs' are based in London and Manchester which automatically gives them an advantage in terms of attracting players, and Liverpool which is a decent city and packed with a footballing tradition we can't hope to match. The 'big clubs' who have collapsed have done so because of factors not linked to football. Leeds were catastrophically misnamanaged. Villa's city is in perhaps terminal decline as a cultural and economic centre. Just a couple of examples. So the club can by all means have the ambition to become something different. But the cards are stacked against us doing so on a sustained basis. Our owners wanting something doesn't make something so, I'm afraid. Big clubs aren't big clubs simply on the basis that somebody wanted them to be a big club. It's far more complicated than that, absent a ridiculously rich owner coming along to bankroll it.
HankMarvin Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 10 hours ago, Manwell Pablo said: Haha New England fox for president All night
SpacedX Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 6 minutes ago, LJS said: Villa's city is in perhaps terminal decline as a cultural and economic centre. ??? Could you 'perhaps' explain why?
HankMarvin Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 10 minutes ago, LJS said: It doesn't have to stay that way. Things can change. But that change is very difficult to achieve and it takes more than a solitary title win to manage it. The owners can want to move us on as much as they want, but it isn't really down to them. They don't have the money of the owners of Chelsea or Man City so they can't force us into the picture like they did. The current 'big clubs' are based in London and Manchester which automatically gives them an advantage in terms of attracting players, and Liverpool which is a decent city and packed with a footballing tradition we can't hope to match. The 'big clubs' who have collapsed have done so because of factors not linked to football. Leeds were catastrophically misnamanaged. Villa's city is in perhaps terminal decline as a cultural and economic centre. Just a couple of examples. So the club can by all means have the ambition to become something different. But the cards are stacked against us doing so on a sustained basis. Our owners wanting something doesn't make something so, I'm afraid. Big clubs aren't big clubs simply on the basis that somebody wanted them to be a big club. It's far more complicated than that, absent a ridiculously rich owner coming along to bankroll it. Why are you comparing us to teams like that, i don't think anyone thought we would challenge or be a top 4 team this year. You talk about the big clubs being mismanaged, but what about the smaller clubs (that didn't have a team good enough to win the league) stabilising in the Division with less investment. Southampton Stoke West Brom etc
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 1 minute ago, HankMarvin said: Why are you comparing us to teams like that, i don't think anyone thought we would challenge or be a top 4 team this year. You talk about the big clubs being mismanaged, but what about the smaller clubs (that didn't have a team good enough to win the league) stabilising in the Division with less investment. Southampton Stoke West Brom etc I'm not "comparing" I'm talking about what it would take to make us a "big club" as that's the ambition that some seem to hold. It's just one example of how a smaller club gets there. And who is saying we can't stabilise in the league like the clubs you've mentioned? Certainly not me. Just be mindful that any such stabilisation is normally relatively short term. You've come up with three clubs with similar natural positions to that of our own. They're at, or just above, the top end of historical expectations right now. They'll have similar spells in the middle of the second tier (and indeed I've seen them all in the third tier) too.
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 6 minutes ago, Line-X said: ??? Could you 'perhaps' explain why? Amazing, you're offended by the use of the word 'perhaps'. A not unreasonable word to use given that I can't see into the future. I'm no expert on the history of the city but it has lost much of it's industry and hasn't successfully built itself back up as a cultural centre like London always has been and like Manchester has become since the mid 1990s. These things matter. Almost the world over a country's biggest football clubs come from it's biggest economic and/or cultural centres. Football doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even where status can be seen to have been artificially bought (Chelsea and Manchester City) the prospective owners chose locations established as major centres for other reasons. It wasn't random.
HankMarvin Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 18 minutes ago, LJS said: I'm not "comparing" I'm talking about what it would take to make us a "big club" as that's the ambition that some seem to hold. It's just one example of how a smaller club gets there. And who is saying we can't stabilise in the league like the clubs you've mentioned? Certainly not me. Just be mindful that any such stabilisation is normally relatively short term. You've come up with three clubs with similar natural positions to that of our own. They're at, or just above, the top end of historical expectations right now. They'll have similar spells in the middle of the second tier (and indeed I've seen them all in the third tier) too. erm you said "The current 'big clubs' are based in London and Manchester which automatically gives them an advantage in terms of attracting players, and Liverpool which is a decent city and packed with a footballing tradition we can't hope to match." If you are saying we cant match the clubs then you are comparing us to them. You seem to post in the extreme I don't recall any mentioning the top clubs apart from yourself? Its like your trying to make a point about us being a big club that no one has actually said? West Brom have been in the Division 6 years Southampton 4 years 14th 8th 7th 6th Stoke 8 years lowest finish 14th, finished 9th the last 3 seasons Not really in a similar position, My point is the teams mentioned have shown its possible with less investment, and arguably a less gifted squad to build from. Hence anyone that talks about perspective of our club given our "history" doesn't seem to factor in what should be realistically attainable given our situation. Should we be be happy with the poor performances, and finishing 17th because history suggests we are a yo-yo club?
SpacedX Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 5 minutes ago, LJS said: Amazing, you're offended by the use of the word 'perhaps'. Perhaps 5 minutes ago, LJS said: A not unreasonable word to use given that I can't see into the future. I'm no expert on the history of the city but it has lost much of it's industry and hasn't successfully built itself back up as a cultural centre like London always has been and like Manchester has become since the mid 1990s. These things matter. Almost the world over a country's biggest football clubs come from it's biggest economic and/or cultural centres. Football doesn't exist in a vacuum. Even where status can be seen to have been artificially bought (Chelsea and Manchester City) the prospective owners chose locations established as major centres for other reasons. It wasn't random. Completely disagree. Economically, socially and culturally central Birmingham has reinvented itself. Between 2011 and 2013 the economy grew by 4.2% and the Greater Birmingham area 2.5%, making it the best performing of the ten core cities and way above the average of 1.6%. it was also the top performing English region in terms of attracting inward investment. True, Witton and the immediate area may not be the most salubrious in the City, but I'm struggling to understand what your spurious economic assessment of the Birmingham conurbation has to do with the decline in the fortunes of Aston Villa FC which is almost entirely attributed to a toxic boardroom and failed ownership.
Danizen Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 Why do people keep saying 'we're not a big club, what do you expect?' or 'they're not a big club, why are they moaning?' It's not like we're in 8th place and moaning about being outside the European places. We're staring at relegation battle in the face and the stakes are that much higher because of our huge wage bill yet the players blatantly won't put the effort in and the manager won't change anything yet we're supposed to happily accept this because of what happened last season. Fvck your perspective. This season has been a disgrace.
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 31 minutes ago, HankMarvin said: erm you said "The current 'big clubs' are based in London and Manchester which automatically gives them an advantage in terms of attracting players, and Liverpool which is a decent city and packed with a footballing tradition we can't hope to match." If you are saying we cant match the clubs then you are comparing us to them. You seem to post in the extreme I don't recall any mentioning the top clubs apart from yourself? Its like your trying to make a point about us being a big club that no one has actually said? West Brom have been in the Division 6 years Southampton 4 years 14th 8th 7th 6th Stoke 8 years lowest finish 14th, finished 9th the last 3 seasons Not really in a similar position, My point is the teams mentioned have shown its possible with less investment, and arguably a less gifted squad to build from. Hence anyone that talks about perspective of our club given our "history" doesn't seem to factor in what should be realistically attainable given our situation. Should we be be happy with the poor performances, and finishing 17th because history suggests we are a yo-yo club? If you want to play semantics then fine. And all of those clubs are in a similar position to us in terms of their history, which was the point. It isn't about what we should be "happy" with. It's about what's realistically attainable on a sustainable basis. I'm sure every supporter of every club wants theirs to be the best in the land but mot every club can be, and some have certain innuilt advantages.
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 21 minutes ago, Line-X said: Perhaps Completely disagree. Economically, socially and culturally central Birmingham has reinvented itself. Between 2011 and 2013 the economy grew by 4.2% and the Greater Birmingham area 2.5%, making it the best performing of the ten core cities and way above the average of 1.6%. it was also the top performing English region in terms of attracting inward investment. True, Witton and the immediate area may not be the most salubrious in the City, but I'm struggling to understand what your spurious economic assessment of the Birmingham conurbation has to do with the decline in the fortunes of Aston Villa FC which is almost entirely attributed to a toxic boardroom and failed ownership. I like central Birmingham, it is much better than it was before it was redeveloped and I understand that there are plans to redevelop further. But people with money (footballers) don't want to live there. London and Manchester are the two premier cities in the country and the latter is now, culturally at least, widely regarded as being the second city. I think it's a shame and hope it changes but I think that's where we are at the moment. Manchester got some help from the IRA (I'm not trying to be glib, the bomb in '96 allowed them to start again) whereas Birmingham has to change more slowly. It does have an impressive city centre and has the feel of a major European city these days, but it still lags behind London and Manchester.
Guest Col city fan Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 LJS really is making himself look a plonker in this thread. oh dear..
Libertine Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 11 hours ago, LJS said: He/she hasn't made a point. Perfect fit for President then.
Nick Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 3 minutes ago, Col city fan said: LJS really is making himself look a plonker in this thread. oh dear.. As the forum barometer for such things - I bow to your benchmarking experience.
Harry - LCFC Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 It's fine to say that expectations should be managed after an exceptional season, but I also think it's stretching things a bit to start saying that our current position should be considered reasonable.
Guest Col city fan Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 Just now, Swan Lesta said: As the forum barometer for such things - I bow to your benchmarking experience. 30 all?
HankMarvin Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 18 minutes ago, LJS said: If you want to play semantics then fine. And all of those clubs are in a similar position to us in terms of their history, which was the point. It isn't about what we should be "happy" with. It's about what's realistically attainable on a sustainable basis. I'm sure every supporter of every club wants theirs to be the best in the land but mot every club can be, and some have certain innuilt advantages. You just done it again who said anything about wanting to be the best in the land???
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 9 minutes ago, Col city fan said: LJS really is making himself look a plonker in this thread. oh dear.. You're genuine simpleton, aren't you?
Nick Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 Just now, Col city fan said: 30 all? Advantage Swan Lesta. Swan Lesta leads two sets to love, 6 - 1; 6 - 2; 4 - 3.
LJS Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 Just now, HankMarvin said: You just done it again who said anything about wanting to be the best in the land??? Why are you arguing the language instead of the points made? It doesn't matter if it's being "the best in the land" or really badly wanting to finish 8th in the league. The point is that lots of other clubs will also have the same ambitions and most of the factors involved in achieving something aren't under the control of the club in question.
HankMarvin Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 5 minutes ago, LJS said: Why are you arguing the language instead of the points made? It doesn't matter if it's being "the best in the land" or really badly wanting to finish 8th in the league. The point is that lots of other clubs will also have the same ambitions and most of the factors involved in achieving something aren't under the control of the club in question. But the ( other clubs) didn' just win the league and have the sort of investment we have. when we are bringing on a 30million pound sub striker and 17 million pound winger after finishing first by 10 points, I think our expectations should be greater than our current position shows. your making points that would be valid if it was 2014/15
adejo92 Posted 9 December 2016 Author Posted 9 December 2016 Its Kinda funny because we are where we are and no body is going to change it within this forum! I have raised numerous negative points in the past but realized it achieves nothing. Ride out the storm, if we stay up we stay up. We go down, we go down. There's not a single squad member i would be sad to loose if we went down anyway. It really is like feeding a carcass to lions on this forum sometimes.
Guest Col city fan Posted 9 December 2016 Posted 9 December 2016 11 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Advantage Swan Lesta. Swan Lesta leads two sets to love, 6 - 1; 6 - 2; 4 - 3. Nah Deuce...
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