What's your view? Justice or murder?

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, Captain... said:

What about Anders Brevik? No doubt he did it, he openly admitted it and showed no remorse. He even detailed how he went about conditioning his mind to do it.

 

In that case you have absolute proof, would you accept the death penalty for him?

Is it truly, truly 100% though? With Brevik we're more certain than the vast majority of cases - the confession, the evidence, the testimony all overwhelming - but what is being debated is absolute proof. Executing someone is absolute - there's no chance, whatsoever, of bringing them back to life at the present time, for instance. 

 

I know I'm likely nitpicking here, but while even the most infinitesimal piece of doubt remains, the point stands. I honestly think it's a degree of perfection that humans cannot reach.

 

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

So video footage, a confession and that persons finger prints on the weapon as well as theiir blood all over the murder would NOT be considered 100% proof?

See above.

[Manwell Pablo]

13 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

So video footage, a confession and that persons finger prints on the weapon as well as theiir blood all over the murder would NOT be considered 100% proof?

 

Nope, not impossible to stitch all that and frame someone, even the confession with the correct threats to family and loved ones. 

 

Highly ****ing probable it is, but 100% it is not.  

[MPH]

9 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Is it truly, truly 100% though? With Brevik we're more certain than the vast majority of cases - the confession, the evidence, the testimony all overwhelming - but what is being debated is absolute proof. Executing someone is absolute - there's no chance, whatsoever, of bringing them back to life at the present time, for instance. 

 

I know I'm likely nitpicking here, but while even the most infinitesimal piece of doubt remains, the point stands. I honestly think it's a degree of perfection that humans cannot reach.

 

See above.

 

1 minute ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Nope, not impossible to stitch all that and frame someone, even the confession with the correct threats to family and loved ones. 

 

Highly ****ing probable it is, but 100% it is not.  

 

 

Nitpicking  is an understatement. How all that can NOT be considered absolute proof is beyond me...

[Finnegan]

45 minutes ago, Captain... said:

What about Anders Brevik? No doubt he did it, he openly admitted it and showed no remorse. He even detailed how he went about conditioning his mind to do it.

 

In that case you have absolute proof, would you accept the death penalty for him?

 

 

No I wouldn't, he'd consider it martyrdom and probably rejoice in it. 

 

Brevik comes under the above discussion on psychopathy, he's a remorseless predator that will never be rehabilotated and will always be a danger to society. He should never be released. 

 

He should, however, not be given the easy out of execution. He should be made to stew in prison for the rest of his life as its a much worse punishment. Preferably surrounded by as many immigrants, students, lefties and liberals as are in the Norwegian prison system, just to wind him up. 

[Manwell Pablo]

Just now, MPH said:

 

 

 

Nitpicking  is an understatement. How all that can NOT be considered absolute proof is beyond me...

 

Because you don't seem to be appreciating how absolute absolute needs to be , it is improbable, massively, but it is possible to fudge it. Besides then there is the debate about what quantifies 100% it's just a can of worms, there is a reason why it is and always has been beyond reasonable doubt and that's because determining 100% and absolute guilt is not possible.

 

I don't think confession is even a talking point really if a defendant knows they are for it if they plead guilty and confess then they may as well plead not guilty and try their luck, no point in confessing.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

 

Nitpicking  is an understatement. How all that can NOT be considered absolute proof is beyond me...

Well...because it's not. As Pabs says above there is still doubt - it may be infinitesimal but it is still doubt. Certainty (and perfection) are something rarely seen in human behaviour - the dead staying dead is one of those certainties, guilt regarding a crime is not.

 

 

[MPH]

10 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Well...because it's not. As Pabs says above there is still doubt - it may be infinitesimal but it is still doubt. Certainty (and perfection) are something rarely seen in human behaviour - the dead staying dead is one of those certainties, guilt regarding a crime is not.

 

 

 

 

but the reason you stated.. about being human... thats like saying.. i see a tree in front of me... but maybe thats not a tree,  becase after all im human and maybe my eye sight is failing, or im seeing a mirage or having some kind of seizure/ dream so maybe its not really a tree.

 

 

Thats pretty much the lvl you are talking about when it comes to being 'absolute'

 

 

Besides, making the statement that  as a human that there are no absolutes is contradictory in of itself - thats an absolute! and you're a human!

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

but the reason you stated.. about being human... thats like saying.. i see a tree in front of me... but maybe thats not a tree,  becase after all im human and maybe my eye sight is failing, or im seeing a mirage or having some kind of seizure/ dream so maybe its not really a tree.

 

 

Thats pretty much the lvl you are talking about when it comes to being 'absolute'

 

 

Besides, making the statement that  as a human that there are no absolutes is contradictory in of itself - thats an absolute! and you're a human!

Now we're getting into metaphysics!

 

I think what Pabs and I are saying is that it isn't absolute not because what humans perceive is subjective, but that human action can always be used to subvert something like this. Put simply, anything can be faked or forced given the right application of power and opportunity. Bluntly, a frame-up is never impossible.

 

And while that's the case, we can't consider punishments that are impossible to overturn.

 

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[MPH]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Now we're getting into metaphysics!

 

I think what Pabs and I are saying is that it isn't absolute not because what humans perceive is subjective, but that human action can always be used to subvert something like this. Put simply, anything can be faked or forced given the right application of power and opportunity. Bluntly, a frame-up is never impossible.

 

And while that's the case, we can't consider punishments that are impossible to overturn.

 

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

 

it's clearer, but still wrong

[Chico1958]

And while we're debating the rights and wrongs of the guy who killed his two day daughter and the guy who killed him

 

Some poor child will never grow up and live a life that she should have been blessed with.

 

I don't have any feelings for either of the blokes involved but it saddens me to think that people can be so cruel to someone who can't defend themselves.

 

RIP: Baby Girl

[Benguin]

If he truly was remorseful then I think living with it would have been a more apt punishment alongside the obvious punishment that comes with prison. 

[the fox]

for people who are saying "let them rot in prison", how do you explain the pitchfork mess? he raped and killed two 15-something year old girls and is now free.

 

put yourself in those people's shoes, living day by day imagining what your little girl went threw, did she cry and scream for help or was she too afraid to scream while she was being raped!

 

"On 21 November 1983, a 15-year-old girl named Lynda Mann left her home to visit a friend's house. She did not return. The next morning, she was found raped and strangled on a deserted footpath known locally as the Black Pad"

 

"On 31 July 1986, another 15-year-old girl, Dawn Ashworth, took a shortcut instead of taking her normal route home. Two days later, her body was found in a wooded area near a footpath called Ten Pound Lane. She had been beaten, savagely raped and strangled to death"

 

 

believe it or not, there probably are people who are more than ok getting the needle let alone doing time (even if that meant their whole life) if they can satisfy their disgusting, animalistic urges. and don't even let them know that there is a chance they will get out in 30-something years

[Manwell Pablo]

18 minutes ago, the fox said:

for people who are saying "let them rot in prison", how do you explain the pitchfork mess? he raped and killed two 15-something year old girls and is now free.

 

put yourself in those people's shoes, living day by day imagining what your little girl went threw, did she cry and scream for help or was she too afraid to scream while she was being raped!

 

"On 21 November 1983, a 15-year-old girl named Lynda Mann left her home to visit a friend's house. She did not return. The next morning, she was found raped and strangled on a deserted footpath known locally as the Black Pad"

 

"On 31 July 1986, another 15-year-old girl, Dawn Ashworth, took a shortcut instead of taking her normal route home. Two days later, her body was found in a wooded area near a footpath called Ten Pound Lane. She had been beaten, savagely raped and strangled to death"

 

 

believe it or not, there probably are people who are more than ok getting the needle let alone doing time (even if that meant their whole life) if they can satisfy their disgusting, animalistic urges. and don't even let them know that there is a chance they will get out in 30-something years

 

Hes still in prison isn't he?

[the fox]

6 minutes ago, Manwell Pablo said:

 

Hes still in prison isn't he?

pitchfork? he is out. there is already a thread about it.

[Manwell Pablo]

2 minutes ago, the fox said:

pitchfork? he is out. there is already a thread about it.

 

Well ive just read it someone said he's close to release and then everyone's gone ott and acted like he's already out. As far as I'm aware he's still in an open prison (he gets let out once in awhile if he gives a good reason) with a review next year.