Southampton Home post match, 1-2 loss.

[That_Dude]

20 hours ago, jim5000 said:

I didn't like Puel's post match interview on MOTD yesterday. He just kept saying 'no comment', 'no comment', when asked about the fans booing and pressure on his position.

 

I 100% get that he's running a project, one that we might not see the benefits of for a couple of years (if we can keep the squad together), but he has to remember that managing a football team isn't a corporate management exercise to increase profits over the coming years. The fans there yesterday were still paying £35+ a ticket and deserve to be entertained, and are quite right to be vocal about the continued poor performances.

He should have done a Bielsa and said "I heard them and still don't give a feck". Which is about right.

 

It really is. 

 

Therein lies the problem. Some just want their weekly entertainment (football is a sport by the way) whilst drinking their beer and eating their pie, to forget whatever shit happened during the week and if they don't get it, they're angry and boo. Project, adaptation to a style change, short term pain for long term gain, all of that seems to fly completely over their head. Instant gratification or they throw their toys out the pram. I'm exaggerating a bit but this is, in a nutshell, the impression I get from some fans.

 

Edited 14 January 2019 by That_Dude

[That_Dude]

On 12/01/2019 at 18:39, DerbyshireFox said:

Only thing worse than the past two games is the state of some of the fanbase at the moment. Whoever boos one of their own players coming on may as well stay at home and stick the radio on

I thought I was hearing boos when Ghezzal came on. Is it what you meant? Either way it's an absolute disgrace. 

[DerbyshireFox]

7 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

I thought I was hearing boos when Ghezzal came on. Is it what you meant? Either way it's an absolute disgrace. 

Yep, quite a few as well. It’s happened with Iheanacho as well this season. Boo the performance at the end if you have to - I wouldn’t do it, but that’s my choice. But to boo your own players coming on to the pitch is frankly a joke, and to me shows how entitled some people have become. People would soon be celebrating if they hit the back of the net!!

[That_Dude]

On 12/01/2019 at 18:44, StriderHiryu said:

Disappointing result of course. Mendy had an absolute shocker and I thought Maguire was poo today too. But one positive for me was that at one point we had Gray, Barnes, Chilwell, Maddison, Ndidi and Choudhury all on the field and were going for the jugular. That IS our team’s future for the next few years. All are young and inexperienced. We are likely already safe from the drop so playing these guys now is IMO a good idea. This is a transition season as is clear to see. 

 

I liked dropping Maddison deep to run the game with Barnes further upfield. I’d be tempted to play that way again. Hamza also looked good when we went to a midfield two so **** it just play him and Ndidi there in the next game. 

 

I know emotions are raw but we had all the possession in the world today and couldn’t score. We know we need to improve in the forward third but there’s no magic wand you can wave to fix it. Barnes looked promising but you could see he’s not on the same wavelength as the other players just yet. We lost today due to two stupid errors. Maybe you can criticise the 433 but Puel changed it at halftime and hooked two players. 

 

I would also say that the despite the loss the game was exciting and it’s not like we weren’t going for it. They camped in their own half and hung on like heroes. Fair play to Southampton they held on and fought for everything. I know this is a repeat situation for us but it will take time to fix. Even Cristiano Ronaldo was more miss than hit in his first season. He didn’t turn out too bad thereafter. 

It was the perfect illustration of why we shouldn't play that team in this formation at home. Did he gave in because of the fans pressure? I can't believe he did it to be honest and thought he knew better than that.

 

I noticed that Maddison isn't as effective when played on the wing and was much better in the second half in his central role. Choudhury and Ndidi were pushed high up the pitch in order to get the ball quickly but it left us very vulnerable to the counter. We found ourselves outnumbered many times and a more skilfull team could've scored a couple. Thankfully they didn't have to, as Mendy and Schmeichel (both at fault) graciously gifted them 2 goals out of nothing. We produced very little and the stretched lines saw most of our passes forward intercepted. We got outmuscled in the middle, forced to play on the wings with the obvious result.

 

It doesn't excuse the abysmal display of our players, Ricardo, Mendy, Albrighton and Vardy having a stinker but the set-up in the first half was never going to work and Puel should take the responsibility for that. He corrected it in the second and made the right subs, Maddison back in the middle, Barnes making some intelligent runs but our usual lack of intelligence in the last third against packed teams was never going to be enough to score at least two goals. No movement, no give and go, no running in channels, no attempt to beat the man. Just cross it and hope that it will succefully deflects on of our players to get in. Chilwell was particularly guilty of that. The only times we were remotely threatening is when we were playing in one two touches with the ball on the floor. We tried it but not often enough. To be fair, it supposes a great understanding between players, as you must know beforehand where the other is going and that can only be obtained through training. 

 

It also shows the void Mahrez left when he went to Manchester City. Although even then we struggled to break such teams down. We won't improve this season if we don't get another creative player in or sign a target man. I'd call Slim back.

Edited 14 January 2019 by That_Dude

[AlloverthefloorYesNdidi]

2 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

It was the perfect illustration of why we shouldn't play that team in this formation at home. Did he gave in because of the fans pressure? I can't believe he did it to be honest and thought he knew better than that.

 

I cant believe that either, but I can believe the players/staff said we should do what worked against Chelsea and Man City etc....

 

Before people come in and say i'm blaming anyone but Puel for the defeat here, i'm not.  Its on him that we played 433 for whatever reason.  I dont think he should have done it and it was a mistake imo

 

Its just weird that he did it

[StriderHiryu]

14 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

It was the perfect illustration of why we shouldn't play that team in this formation at home. Did he gave in because of the fans pressure? I can't believe he did it to be honest and thought he knew better than that.

 

I noticed that Maddison isn't as effective when played on the wing and was much better in the second half in his central role. Choudhury and Ndidi were pushed high up the pitch in order to get the ball quickly but it left us very vulnerable to the counter. We found ourselves outnumbered many times and a more skilfull team could've scored a couple. Thankfully they didn't have to, as Mendy and Schmeichel (both at fault) graciously gifted them 2 goals out of nothing. We produced very little and the stretched lines saw most of our passes forward intercepted. We got outmuscled in the middle, forced to play on the wings with the obvious result.

 

It doesn't excuse the abysmal display of our players, Ricardo, Mendy, Albrighton and Vardy having a stinker but the set-up in the first half was never going to work and Puel should take the responsibility for that. He corrected it in the second and made the right subs, Maddison back in the middle, Barnes making some intelligent runs but our usual lack of intelligence in the last third against packed teams was never going to be enough to score at least two goals. No movement, no give and go, no running in channels, no attempt to beat the man. Just cross it and hope that it will succefully deflects on of our players to get in. Chilwell was particularly guilty of that. The only times we were remotely threatening is when we were playing in one two touches with the ball on the floor. We tried it but not often enough. To be fair, it supposes a great understanding between players, as you must know beforehand where the other is going and that can only be obtained through training. 

 

It also shows the void Mahrez left when he went to Manchester City. Although even then we struggled to break such teams down. We won't improve this season if we don't get another creative player in or sign a target man. I'd call Slim back.

As we all know we were poor but I think CP said some interesting things about it. Ultimately his time here will be defined by our ability in our inability to evolve in this area. 

 

“We tried to score another goal and come from behind, we made a lot of crosses and shots, but it is always difficult to play against a deep block. There was a lot of shots and saves from their goalkeeper but without enough movement in the box.

“We need to work at this play because we play a lot against a deep block and it is important to find more solutions. It’s a shame, a big disappointment. We continue to learn and now it is important to be strong and find the right response and reaction in the next game.”

[shen]

7 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

As we all know we were poor but I think CP said some interesting things about it. Ultimately his time here will be defined by our ability in our inability to evolve in this area. 

 

“We tried to score another goal and come from behind, we made a lot of crosses and shots, but it is always difficult to play against a deep block. There was a lot of shots and saves from their goalkeeper but without enough movement in the box.

“We need to work at this play because we play a lot against a deep block and it is important to find more solutions. It’s a shame, a big disappointment. We continue to learn and now it is important to be strong and find the right response and reaction in the next game.”

The last two sentences highlights another problem: That we are yet to find a support striker for Vardy who forces defenders out of position for Vardy to then exploit.

I really wouldn't mind us playing Iheanacho or Okazaki there again and switch with Maddison being that support striker on the break.

 

[turtmcfly]

5 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

It was the perfect illustration of why we shouldn't play that team in this formation at home. Did he gave in because of the fans pressure? I can't believe he did it to be honest and thought he knew better than that.

 

I noticed that Maddison isn't as effective when played on the wing and was much better in the second half in his central role. Choudhury and Ndidi were pushed high up the pitch in order to get the ball quickly but it left us very vulnerable to the counter. We found ourselves outnumbered many times and a more skilfull team could've scored a couple. Thankfully they didn't have to, as Mendy and Schmeichel (both at fault) graciously gifted them 2 goals out of nothing. We produced very little and the stretched lines saw most of our passes forward intercepted. We got outmuscled in the middle, forced to play on the wings with the obvious result.

  

It doesn't excuse the abysmal display of our players, Ricardo, Mendy, Albrighton and Vardy having a stinker but the set-up in the first half was never going to work and Puel should take the responsibility for that. He corrected it in the second and made the right subs, Maddison back in the middle, Barnes making some intelligent runs but our usual lack of intelligence in the last third against packed teams was never going to be enough to score at least two goals. No movement, no give and go, no running in channels, no attempt to beat the man. Just cross it and hope that it will succefully deflects on of our players to get in. Chilwell was particularly guilty of that. The only times we were remotely threatening is when we were playing in one two touches with the ball on the floor. We tried it but not often enough. To be fair, it supposes a great understanding between players, as you must know beforehand where the other is going and that can only be obtained through training. 

 

It also shows the void Mahrez left when he went to Manchester City. Although even then we struggled to break such teams down. We won't improve this season if we don't get another creative player in or sign a target man. I'd call Slim back.

 

And yet, and yet, with a bit of special pleading...

 

You've only really got the first half to go on as an indicator of whether whether it 'worked' in any way.

 

If you take the two Mendy ****-ups out of it (in fact if you take out just the second one), that first half wasn't that different to most of this year's home games. We started slowly, but for 20 minutes or so before the second goal we started created chances and grew more dominant. And this at the same time as (as you mention) there were players having absolute howlers.

 

Saying he 'corrected' it in the second half conveniently ignores (or at least, skirts round) the fact that we were playing against 10 men, and thus a change at half time would be expected anyway. I do wonder though, if Mendy hadn't had experienced a second prolapse of he frontal cortex, whether he would have changed anything at half time. And ultimately (and secretly - this is just between me and you) wonder whether it might have actually worked.

That said, I'm not advocating ever doing it again, although if I'm honest that's mainly because I don't want him sacked (for lack of a clearly superior alternative), and if it failed again it would be a big stick to beat him with.

[StriderHiryu]

52 minutes ago, shen said:

The last two sentences highlights another problem: That we are yet to find a support striker for Vardy who forces defenders out of position for Vardy to then exploit.

I really wouldn't mind us playing Iheanacho or Okazaki there again and switch with Maddison being that support striker on the break.

 

However, you want to slice it, our attack is shit. 

 

If we are going to play possesion football, we need quick passing and movement. Best summed up by this magnificent passage of play from 15/16. If Puel had us playing like this, then people wouldn't give him half as much grief!

 

To be honest that's the biggest disapointment for me, that we don't get to see this type of play. My expecations are that we would try it, but that it wouldn't come off very often and we would be inconsistent. Earlier in the season we did play like this at times against both Manchester United and Arsenal, but it has tailed off. I'm not sure why!

 

 

 

[That_Dude]

2 minutes ago, turtmcfly said:

 

And yet, and yet, with a bit of special pleading...

 

You've only really got the first half to go on as an indicator of whether whether it 'worked' in any way.

 

If you take the two Mendy ****-ups out of it (in fact if you take out just the second one), that first half wasn't that different to most of this year's home games. We started slowly, but for 20 minutes or so before the second goal we started created chances and grew more dominant. And this at the same time as (as you mention) there were players having absolute howlers.

 

Saying he 'corrected' it in the second half conveniently ignores (or at least, skirts round) the fact that we were playing against 10 men, and thus a change at half time would be expected anyway. I do wonder though, if Mendy hadn't had experienced a second prolapse of he frontal cortex, whether he would have changed anything at half time. And ultimately (and secretly - this is just between me and you) wonder whether it might have actually worked.

That said, I'm not advocating ever doing it again, although if I'm honest that's mainly because I don't want him sacked (for lack of a clearly superior alternative), and if it failed again it would be a big stick to beat him with.

Fair points. 

 

I mostly spoke about the first half because we played in a 4-3-3.

 

If I'm correct, we switched to the usual 4-2-3-1 in the second half with Barnes on the left side. We grew more dominant because they already were a goal up after 11 minutes, more than they could've asked for, and then sat even deeper, waiting for the counter, which occured a couple of times. As far as I can remember we only had 2 clear cut chances (one of which should've gone in if it weren't for that fantastic save on the line) in the first half. As already stated, my main gripe with that formation is that Maddison is wasted on the left side and we have then 0 creativity in the middle of the park. It works well when we face a possession teams playing high as we have more chances to steal the ball and quickly counter-attack through the sides, not so much against teams sitting deep. Ricardo also didn't do his part of the job in the first half to be completely honest.

 

For what it's worth I'd have gone with the usual 4-2-3-1 with Hamza instead of Mendy, as he tends to push and pass forward more which would prevent Maddison to drop as deep as he has to at the moment, but I'm no manager so what I say might be pure bollocks. With the red card, I thought that we'd might turn it over despite of the slow start, the terrible passing, and the inadequate formation (personal opinion) and then the second goal happened. 

 

Speculations naturally, but I do think that the changes would have come anyway as soon as they were down to 10 men. We were trailing anyway and there's just no way he wouldn't adjust it right at the start of the second half. Mendy was also clearly struggling as a sentinel even without his second howler.

 

Just between you and me, since nobody knows that I don't want him sacked, people cried out for this 4-3-3 with this starting XI at home because "muh, don't change a winning formula". Well, here's the result (yeah, I know also due to the players awful performance". Had he lost with another formation you'd see the same beating him with the "why u not play 4-3-3?" stick. He'll never win here.

 

It's a shame really, a terrible display right after the "Reality Check" interview.

[shen]

12 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

However, you want to slice it, our attack is shit. 

 

If we are going to play possesion football, we need quick passing and movement. Best summed up by this magnificent passage of play from 15/16. If Puel had us playing like this, then people wouldn't give him half as much grief!

 

To be honest that's the biggest disapointment for me, that we don't get to see this type of play. My expecations are that we would try it, but that it wouldn't come off very often and we would be inconsistent. Earlier in the season we did play like this at times against both Manchester United and Arsenal, but it has tailed off. I'm not sure why!

It's quite good when we counter, but our games against Cardiff, Newport and Southampton serve as perfect examples as to where we fail.

You are right about quick passing and movement and partly, this is down to personnel.

 

The stray passes to Albrighton against Soton and our general inability to complete even simple passes in that first half shows that we are poor at passing/first touches and creating openings or space for others. 

It was symptomatic of our predicament when Choudhury carried the ball 40 yards straight down the middle with Soton happy to stand off, only to play a woeful pass out of play with Vardy begging for it.

 

I too was hoping for some intricate passing moves high up the pitch, which leads me to wonder why Silva hasn't been given more chances as he's clearly trained in this sort of play style at both Sporting and with Portugal. But with players like Gray (who dallies constantly), Albrighton (who's abilities are specialised and rather limited) and Ghezzal (who frequently misplaces passes too), not to mention our average passers in the middle, you wonder how we can pull off moves like in that clip more frequently.

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, shen said:

It was symptomatic of our predicament when Choudhury carried the ball 40 yards straight down the middle with Soton happy to stand off, only to play a woeful pass out of play with Vardy begging for it.

This ws when you got that feeling it wasn't going to be our day. Magnificent play to wn the ball back and charge down the middle and then play a terrible pass to put it out of play!

 

We need to get better at passing!