Climate change: What can we do?

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Most protests are not about deliberate disruption of people's lives at all. Very few are.

 

Britain has done far more than most on these issues and you can see there are more sinister intentions in this protests than the climate. Are any of these demonstrating outside the Chinese embassy? Of course not.

 

Today these people are going to block the tube and shut down bus routes, middle class protestors who'll be overwhelmingly hurting the poorest people in society trying to earn money to put food on the table - they aren't climate change protestors - they are scumbags breaking the law who should be facing some serious time in prison.

I guess we must disagree on the nature of protest then, IMO it is a route taken when many others have been exhausted and as such it is frequently dramatic and disruptive, in order to draw attention to the thing being protested about.

 

If you want to believe that these people today do not believe that things have to change to stop future trouble, then fair enough. What matters to me, and what really should matter to anyone vaguely concerned about the future, is that attention is focused on what we are doing to make our planet more inhospitable and what we can do to help change that. While Britain is doing a reasonable job of that, it's not enough - and while the UK can't be responsible for what other countries do on this, some additional pressure might not be a bad thing.

 

The preservation of civilisation in the face of what is to come really shouldn't be a political issue.

[Buce]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Easy to say when it's not you losing money I guess. 

 

If someone was stopping me from getting to work and providing for my family, I'd expect them to be dealt with tbh. 

 

If that attitude had prevailed historically, women still wouldn't have the vote and you'd be working several days a week just to pay your Poll Tax.

 

Thankfully, some people see the bigger picture.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

If that attitude had prevailed historically, women still wouldn't have the vote and you'd be working several days a week just to pay your Poll Tax.

 

Thankfully, some people see the bigger picture.

When did the Suffragettes or the Poll Tax rioters deliberately stop the poorest on society from getting to work?

[leicsmac]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

If that's the future is probably is.

Fair enough. You're not the only one who would choose death over an existence you dislike, and that's a steadfast stance.

 

Of course, seeing as I think death is by definition the worst case scenario for humans, I disagree.

[Guest MattP]

14 minutes ago, Buce said:

Forever.

 

Civil disobedience is not an imprisonable offence.

So just to be absolutely clear on this.

 

If a cleaner on minimum wage can't get to work for weeks on end and gets thrown out of her property as she can't pay the rent, because the bus route has been blocked for a month - you still take no action against the people who have caused this?

 

This is completely and utterly insane.

[Buce]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Fair enough. You're not the only one who would choose death over an existence you dislike, and that's a steadfast stance.

 

Of course, seeing as I think death is by definition the worst case scenario for humans, I disagree.

 

 

I would suggest an entirely selfish and unreasonable one, since by making that choice you are depriving others of theirs.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

So just to be absolutely clear on this.

 

If a cleaner on minimum wage can't get to work for weeks on end and gets thrown out of her property as she can't pay the rent, because the bus route has been blocked for a month - you still take no action against the people who have caused this?

 

This is completely and utterly insane.

 

That's not what I said.

 

Imprisonment for the offence of obstruction is reactionary and disproportionate to the crime.

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, Buce said:

 

That's not what I said.

 

Imprisonment for the offence of obstruction is reactionary and disproportionate to the crime.

So do you believe in dealing with them or not? Because now I'm properly confused. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I would suggest an entirely selfish and unreasonable one, since by making that choice you are depriving others of theirs.

It is most definitely those things, but though I believe most causes worth dying for to merely be a tragic waste of life rather than acts of nobility I can't help but admire someone willing to go that far for their principles.

 

Of course, it does raise the point of how far individual freedom in this matter extends, too.

 

[Buce]

1 minute ago, Innovindil said:

So do you believe in dealing with them or not? Because now I'm properly confused. 

 

This is what I was replying to:

 

46 minutes ago, MattP said:

Most protests are not about deliberate disruption of people's lives at all. Very few are.

 

Britain has done far more than most on these issues and you can see there are more sinister intentions in this protests than the climate. Are any of these demonstrating outside the Chinese embassy? Of course not.

 

Today these people are going to block the tube and shut down bus routes, middle class protestors who'll be overwhelmingly hurting the poorest people in society trying to earn money to put food on the table - they aren't climate change protestors - they are scumbags breaking the law who should be facing some serious time in prison.

3

 

Although I personally support their cause, I accept (as do they) that they are subject to the same laws as everybody else and as such are entitled to be treated in the manner that the law prescribes for the offence of obstruction. That is not 'serious prison time'.

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It is most definitely those things, but though I believe most causes worth dying for to merely be a tragic waste of life rather than acts of nobility I can't help but admire someone willing to go that far for their principles.

 

Of course, it does raise the point of how far individual freedom in this matter extends, too.

 

 

 

I rarely disagree with you on subjects such as this but that could be said of a suicide bomber; I'm not sure you intend that to be the case.

[Innovindil]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

This is what I was replying to:

 

 

Although I personally support their cause, I accept (as do they) that they are subject to the same laws as everybody else and as such are entitled to be treated in the manner that the law prescribes for the offence of obstruction. That is not 'serious prison time'.

Ah, I get you. So out of mild curiosity, if you're in support of the cause is there any specific reason you are not out there with them? 

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

Ah, I get you. So out of mild curiosity, if you're in support of the cause is there any specific reason you are not out there with them? 

 

It's just not practical.

 

Maybe I could just come and stand at the end of your drive instead?

[Innovindil]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

It's just not practical.

 

Maybe I could just come and stand at the end of your drive instead?

Stay away from my kittens. 

 

Wait should add a  so people know I'm messing 

Edited 17 April 2019 by Innovindil

[Buce]

Just now, Innovindil said:

Stay away from my kittens. 

 

No worries.

 

We vegans only hate people...

[yorkie1999]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Why do these movements always attract so many nutters as well?

 

 

drink the kool-aid.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

I would suggest an entirely selfish and unreasonable one, since by making that choice you are depriving others of theirs.

 

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

It is most definitely those things, but though I believe most causes worth dying for to merely be a tragic waste of life rather than acts of nobility I can't help but admire someone willing to go that far for their principles.

 

Of course, it does raise the point of how far individual freedom in this matter extends, too.

As I stated earlier, anyone who has given up driving or stopped flying etc on the basis of this has my full admiration - people who genuinely care and are principled enough to actually do something about it.

 

Deciding to stop everyone else going about their lives because of your own beliefs is in no way noble though - it's denying that freedom of choice that's the basis of civilised society.

 

I mean just listen to this guy, he sounds more like the leader of a religious cult that knows it's right rather than a political activist trying to win hearts and minds.

[leicsmac]

58 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I rarely disagree with you on subjects such as this but that could be said of a suicide bomber; I'm not sure you intend that to be the case.

Oh yeah, there are many stupid and often hugely objectionable causes that people are willing to die for, and them doing so is likewise stupid and often hugely objectionable.

[Guest MattP]

Now gluing themselves to trains.

 

I'm expecting them to start smashing up solar panels or bombing windfarms next.

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

 

As I stated earlier, anyone who has given up driving or stopped flying etc on the basis of this has my full admiration - people who genuinely care and are principled enough to actually do something about it.

 

Deciding to stop everyone else going about their lives because of your own beliefs is in no way noble though - it's denying that freedom of choice that's the basis of civilised society.

 

I mean just listen to this guy, he sounds more like the leader of a religious cult that knows it's right rather than a political activist trying to win hearts and minds.

Thing is, these people "going about their lives", is, in the opinion of some folks, what the problem is as maintaining the status quo is going to result in trouble in the future - as well as the idea that these disruptions are meant to get attention rather than as any part of a permanent fast change. What, exactly, is the best way to convince a plurality of people that the changes recommended by the IPCC and other bodies are necessary and need to be implemented? Presenting the data ina  calm and rational fashion hasn't worked. This kind of disruption (likely) won't work. What else is left to get people in board with something that is this critical?

 

How far the freedom of choice mentioned here goes when it comes to issues like this is a pretty thorny debate and everyone has a different opinion on it.

 

If folks spent as much time examining the message rather than constantly focusing on the qualities of the messengers and (some) using that as an excuse to do nothing then we might actually be getting enough done, tbh.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Thing is, these people "going about their lives", is, in the opinion of some folks, what the problem is as maintaining the status quo is going to result in trouble in the future - as well as the idea that these disruptions are meant to get attention rather than as any part of a permanent fast change. What, exactly, is the best way to convince a plurality of people that the changes recommended by the IPCC and other bodies are necessary and need to be implemented? Presenting the data ina  calm and rational fashion hasn't worked. This kind of disruption (likely) won't work. What else is left to get people in board with something that is this critical?

 

How far the freedom of choice mentioned here goes when it comes to issues like this is a pretty thorny debate and everyone has a different opinion on it.

It's a fundamental principle to be able to go about your business without disruption, if I don't like something you are doing I don't have the right to block roads or sit on your train to stop you doing it.

 

Given this protest is "to hold our government to account" I'd say it's also extremely silly given our has been more draconian than most others. The demands of this group are totally ludicrous as well, net zero emissions by 2025? 

 

We all know the real deal here though - it's not about climate change, it's an anti capitalist mob dressed up as one.

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's a fundamental principle to be able to go about your business without disruption, if I don't like something you are doing I don't have the right to block roads or sit on your train to stop you doing it.

 

Given this protest is "to hold our government to account" I'd say it's also extremely silly given our has been more draconian than most others. The demands of this group are totally ludicrous as well, net zero emissions by 2025? 

 

We all know the real deal here though - it's not about climate change, it's an anti capitalist mob dressed up as one.

 

Again, this is addressing the messengers rather than the message. It's very easy to dismiss it all as "watermelons" (green on the outside, red on the inside) and that may well be true with quite a few of the protestors, but that doesn't change the fact that the way we live in general and in particular generate power around the world is going to lead to consequences that we need to either mitigate or prepare for. Again, how can that be communicated in a fashion that means enough people accept the changes needed? If people don't want to accept that and instead carry on as we are and come what may, I would rather they be honest about their intent and lack of consideration rather than trying deflections based on those stating the facts and their intent.

 

Put simply, the Earth doesn't care about your politics. Or mine. Or anyone else's.

 

The UK has been doing reasonably well wrt such things, but firstly it might not be enough and secondly I would hope all of this is about the world rather than just the UK (could be wrong on that one though).

Edited 17 April 2019 by leicsmac

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

Again, this is addressing the messengers rather than the message. It's very easy to dismiss it all as "watermelons" (green on the outside, red on the inside) and that may well be true with quite a few of the protestors, but that doesn't change the fact that the way we live in general and in particular generate power around the world is going to lead to consequences that we need to either mitigate or prepare for. Again, how can that be communicated in a fashion that means enough people accept the changes needed? 

Well it isn't going to be done by glueing yourself to a train.

 

All that is going to show is this isn't a desire to make people more environmentally friendly, it's about completely changing their way of life to one they want to impose on everybody.

 

Let's call them what they are - extremists. 

[grobyfox1990]

I'm 50/50 on this. Whilst climate change is undoubtedly a huge threat to all life on this planet and something urgently needs to be done (or is it too late already?) not sure this is the right way to go about it. Change is usually achieved gradually and by grinding your 'opponent' down by little and frequent actions, such as the charge on plastic bags as an example. Then again, this is such a dramatic cause, maybe hardcore and unprecedented action is needed to make people take notice?

 

What i am certainly very much enjoying is all the arrogant, self-important Londoners prancing around huffing and puffing about how they're being delayed to their pointless meetings and useless engagements. Brilliant. However i do feel sorry for tradespeople, cleaners, freelancers etc who cannot get to work and are as such losing money.

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

Well it isn't going to be done by glueing yourself to a train.

 

All that is going to show is this isn't a desire to make people more environmentally friendly, it's about completely changing their way of life to one they want to impose on everybody.

 

Let's call them what they are - extremists. 

That they may be and again I agree this probably isn't the way to get things done, but once again, that changes nothing about the facts of the situation that they may or may not (clearly dependent on opinion) be trying to raise and simply dismissing what is going on isn't going to make it go away.

 

I guess I'm going to leave this particular part of the discussion at that because I think it is becoming rather circular.

 

3 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

I'm 50/50 on this. Whilst climate change is undoubtedly a huge threat to all life on this planet and something urgently needs to be done (or is it too late already?) not sure this is the right way to go about it. Change is usually achieved gradually and by grinding your 'opponent' down by little and frequent actions, such as the charge on plastic bags as an example. Then again, this is such a dramatic cause, maybe hardcore and unprecedented action is needed to make people take notice?

 

What i am certainly very much enjoying is all the arrogant, self-important Londoners prancing around huffing and puffing about how they're being delayed to their pointless meetings and useless engagements. Brilliant. However i do feel sorry for tradespeople, cleaners, freelancers etc who cannot get to work and are as such losing money.

It's a difficult one. The threat is real, and absolute - but the problem is that by the time the Average Joe in the street starts to feel the effects of it in a way that really hurts it will already be way too late to actually do anything about it. As such, it's easy to dismiss it as not a problem for now and as such deride people who do.

 

The little stuff bit by bit is helping, but not as much as what is needed, and the hardcore and unprecedented action, while what could well be needed, could also easily backfire because people don't truly get the need for it and as such it won't get applied.

 

What's the best way? Damned if I know.