West Ham v Man Utd & Liverpool v Chelsea - Match Thread

[Nick]

3 minutes ago, mad biker said:

If Wolves beat Chelsea a draw will do will it not ?

Yep

[StriderHiryu]

3 hours ago, Tom12345 said:

Yeah. Still feeling sick about the Bournemouth results, particularly given the manner in which we went from dominating to self destructing because of not just a tactical switch but also because BR was too damn conservative. I don’t feel as bad about the Spurs result because that was kind of expected (except the last 10 mins where we gave up) but playing under fear for the Fearless Foxes is just not our way!!!! (Not for Vardy and Kasper too as they always fight!). This is what is most disappointing, and this is not just the Bournemouth game.

This has been the biggest issue for me since the restart. If I compare this team to 15/16 or even MON teams, they are technically so much better... but also mentally much weaker. A lot of it is due to the age of many of the team, but I think we lack characters in the team. For example, Wilfred Ndidi is possibly the best CDM in Europe right now, but sometimes I feel he is too nice! Compare him to a Vieira or even Fernandinho and I wonder if he has the nasty streak to make him a born winner. Sometimes you can turn a game just with one key challenge, and he makes a lot of them! Tielemans is another who has the technical quality to run a game, but sometimes it feels like he shys away rather than boisterously demanding the players around him up their game and play to his tune. 

 

For me the mental weakness is a huge issue not just for this game, but for next season. We need more depth and quality in the squad but I can't help but feel that we need another proven serial winner in there too. Someone who will be a loud voice in the dressing room, etc. Obviously he's too old, but for example Zlatan Ibrahimovic often has that effect when he joins a team, and other players often mention how good of an influence he can be. 

 

Can Thiago Silva speak English? Despite his age, that sort of leadership and captaincy is the sort of thing I am talking about. 

[HighPeakFox]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

This has been the biggest issue for me since the restart. If I compare this team to 15/16 or even MON teams, they are technically so much better... but also mentally much weaker. A lot of it is due to the age of many of the team, but I think we lack characters in the team. For example, Wilfred Ndidi is possibly the best CDM in Europe right now, but sometimes I feel he is too nice! Compare him to a Vieira or even Fernandinho and I wonder if he has the nasty streak to make him a born winner. Sometimes you can turn a game just with one key challenge, and he makes a lot of them! Tielemans is another who has the technical quality to run a game, but sometimes it feels like he shys away rather than boisterously demanding the players around him up their game and play to his tune. 

 

For me the mental weakness is a huge issue not just for this game, but for next season. We need more depth and quality in the squad but I can't help but feel that we need another proven serial winner in there too. Someone who will be a loud voice in the dressing room, etc. Obviously he's too old, but for example Zlatan Ibrahimovic often has that effect when he joins a team, and other players often mention how good of an influence he can be. 

 

Can Thiago Silva speak English? Despite his age, that sort of leadership and captaincy is the sort of thing I am talking about. 

Strider, I do believe you've gone over to the dark side - cheer up!

[Tom12345]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

This has been the biggest issue for me since the restart. If I compare this team to 15/16 or even MON teams, they are technically so much better... but also mentally much weaker. A lot of it is due to the age of many of the team, but I think we lack characters in the team. For example, Wilfred Ndidi is possibly the best CDM in Europe right now, but sometimes I feel he is too nice! Compare him to a Vieira or even Fernandinho and I wonder if he has the nasty streak to make him a born winner. Sometimes you can turn a game just with one key challenge, and he makes a lot of them! Tielemans is another who has the technical quality to run a game, but sometimes it feels like he shys away rather than boisterously demanding the players around him up their game and play to his tune. 

 

For me the mental weakness is a huge issue not just for this game, but for next season. We need more depth and quality in the squad but I can't help but feel that we need another proven serial winner in there too. Someone who will be a loud voice in the dressing room, etc. Obviously he's too old, but for example Zlatan Ibrahimovic often has that effect when he joins a team, and other players often mention how good of an influence he can be. 

 

Can Thiago Silva speak English? Despite his age, that sort of leadership and captaincy is the sort of thing I am talking about. 

Yeah, fully agree @StriderHiryu. We still have Vardy and Kasper on the pitch and Morgan, Fuchs and Albrighton around in the dressing room, all of whom I feel still carry with them

that fearless winning spirit. We all know how Vardy thrives on it, but it is also sad that he is often the lone outfield man chasing because he wants to win - you can see how he often gesture to his teammates to chase too but how he is often disappointed no one follows (though Perez, Nachos and Tielemans seem to be catching on). Culture is hard to build which is why I often do not understand why some fans are so quick to want to ship our title winning squad out of Leicester. It is not just for sentimental value but it is also needed out of necessity. But they are getting old and we need BR to build some positivity and fearlessness back into the team, and to get rid of the backpassing at the back / non-urgency crap in dying seconds of games that we are chasing. 

Edited 23 July 2020 by Tom12345

[Foxxed]

2 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

This has been the biggest issue for me since the restart. If I compare this team to 15/16 or even MON teams, they are technically so much better... but also mentally much weaker. A lot of it is due to the age of many of the team, but I think we lack characters in the team. For example, Wilfred Ndidi is possibly the best CDM in Europe right now, but sometimes I feel he is too nice! Compare him to a Vieira or even Fernandinho and I wonder if he has the nasty streak to make him a born winner. Sometimes you can turn a game just with one key challenge, and he makes a lot of them! Tielemans is another who has the technical quality to run a game, but sometimes it feels like he shys away rather than boisterously demanding the players around him up their game and play to his tune. 

 

For me the mental weakness is a huge issue not just for this game, but for next season. We need more depth and quality in the squad but I can't help but feel that we need another proven serial winner in there too. Someone who will be a loud voice in the dressing room, etc. Obviously he's too old, but for example Zlatan Ibrahimovic often has that effect when he joins a team, and other players often mention how good of an influence he can be. 

 

Can Thiago Silva speak English? Despite his age, that sort of leadership and captaincy is the sort of thing I am talking about. 

I share your concern somewhat but what about Vardy, Kasper and Wes? Vardy is well-known to be loud and boisterous and knows what it takes mentally to reach the top. And Evans now seems mentally tough. And even Soy has a solid and menacing figures that gives the team composure.

 

I think we have mentally tough figures in defence and attack but perhaps it’s missing in midfield. The midfield in 15/16 could also be argued to have quiet figures but I remember one story about Drinkwater shouting at players for not communicating enough, a small but very important addition to the team ethic.

 

It is a role Hamza could perhaps grow into but I feel he is struggling being a marked man and also seems more a quiet and industrious worker than a loud manager of men - the fact Vardy had to storm into the u23s dressing room to complete his promotion to the first team shows this, I feel. Ndidi is one of the most senior and competent midfielders but I find it difficult to imagine him crowing out orders. 
 

A solid leader in midfield would be welcomed. And that leader would have to command more respect than the club legend Vardy - a difficult task. Bren did wisely get Vardy to manage the press before but I get the feeling he’s better suited to the deadly striker role than a midfield general.

Edited 23 July 2020 by Foxxed

[StriderHiryu]

2 hours ago, Foxxed said:

I share your concern somewhat but what about Vardy, Kasper and Wes? Vardy is well-known to be loud and boisterous and knows what it takes mentally to reach the top. And Evans now seems mentally tough. And even Soy has a solid and menacing figures that gives the team composure.

 

I think we have mentally tough figures in defence and attack but perhaps it’s missing in midfield. The midfield in 15/16 could also be argued to have quiet figures but I remember one story about Drinkwater shouting at players for not communicating enough, a small but very important addition to the team ethic.

 

It is a role Hamza could perhaps grow into but I feel he is struggling being a marked man and also seems more a quiet and industrious worker than a loud manager of men - the fact Vardy had to storm into the u23s dressing room to complete his promotion to the first team shows this, I feel. Ndidi is one of the most senior and competent midfielders but I find it difficult to imagine him crowing out orders. 
 

A solid leader in midfield would be welcomed. And that leader would have to command more respect than the club legend Vardy - a difficult task. Bren did wisely get Vardy to manage the press before but I get the feeling he’s better suited to the deadly striker role than a midfield general.

Well that sort of is my concern... we have those players and yet are still seeing this soft side. It's not just one or two games, I feel like there have been numerous big matches this season where we've lacked character:

- Man U away early in the season. We had started well, they had not. We hadn't beat them since Tony Cottee struck back in the 90's. They get a fortunate penalty but the whole game I don't think we make even one clear cut opportunity. It was the look of a nervous side that did not think they could win up there.

- Liverpool at home. We are flying and possibly even a title contender. We get absolutely trounced with TAA running riot. Again we don't really turn up. 

- Villa home and away in the cup. I don't think we were bad in either leg, but you can see the cup final jitters are getting to us, and that along with their keeper having two incredible matches dumps us out. When the pressure was off in the league, we smashed them both times.

- Bournemouth away. Less said about this one the better. Yes subbing Nacho changed everything, but still the way the team fell apart was horrendous. High profile error from Kasper who up until that point had been magnificent since the restart.

 

I'd love to be having the case of lockdown blues and know that this is just a blip. But with the next season starting very soon after this one, I fear it's something that is persistent in the team. Spurs are the classic example, a team with some seriously great players that have won nothing, and whom always seem to fall apart when it really matters. That is possibly why they've turned to Mourinho but the other way to do it is to sign players with the right mentality. Man United have been transformed by Bruno Fernandes, and whilst one reason is because he's a fabulous player, the main reason for me is that he is a winner. Even in his early games for the club he was remonstrating with his teammates, having a go at Rashford, Martial, etc, telling them where they should stand, etc.

 

Thinking about it, there was one player in recent history that is exactly the type of player I am talking about - Esteban Cambiasso. He was at the end of his career, his body was failing him, and yet he still proved to be an instrumental signing. Every game he would be shouting at Jeff Schlupp, getting him to stand in the right positions and do the right things, resulting in him having an outstanding season. Cambiasso also scored big goals in big games and produced at the times we needed it most. The man was a proven winner who had played at the very highest level for Real Madrid, Inter Milan and Argentina, and he made a huge difference on the pitch. He knew what it took to win big games.

[Foxxed]

5 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Well that sort of is my concern... we have those players and yet are still seeing this soft side. It's not just one or two games, I feel like there have been numerous big matches this season where we've lacked character:

- Man U away early in the season. We had started well, they had not. We hadn't beat them since Tony Cottee struck back in the 90's. They get a fortunate penalty but the whole game I don't think we make even one clear cut opportunity. It was the look of a nervous side that did not think they could win up there.

- Liverpool at home. We are flying and possibly even a title contender. We get absolutely trounced with TAA running riot. Again we don't really turn up. 

- Villa home and away in the cup. I don't think we were bad in either leg, but you can see the cup final jitters are getting to us, and that along with their keeper having two incredible matches dumps us out. When the pressure was off in the league, we smashed them both times.

- Bournemouth away. Less said about this one the better. Yes subbing Nacho changed everything, but still the way the team fell apart was horrendous. High profile error from Kasper who up until that point had been magnificent since the restart.

 

I'd love to be having the case of lockdown blues and know that this is just a blip. But with the next season starting very soon after this one, I fear it's something that is persistent in the team. Spurs are the classic example, a team with some seriously great players that have won nothing, and whom always seem to fall apart when it really matters. That is possibly why they've turned to Mourinho but the other way to do it is to sign players with the right mentality. Man United have been transformed by Bruno Fernandes, and whilst one reason is because he's a fabulous player, the main reason for me is that he is a winner. Even in his early games for the club he was remonstrating with his teammates, having a go at Rashford, Martial, etc, telling them where they should stand, etc.

 

Thinking about it, there was one player in recent history that is exactly the type of player I am talking about - Esteban Cambiasso. He was at the end of his career, his body was failing him, and yet he still proved to be an instrumental signing. Every game he would be shouting at Jeff Schlupp, getting him to stand in the right positions and do the right things, resulting in him having an outstanding season. Cambiasso also scored big goals in big games and produced at the times we needed it most. The man was a proven winner who had played at the very highest level for Real Madrid, Inter Milan and Argentina, and he made a huge difference on the pitch. He knew what it took to win big games.

Cambiasso was the name that popped into my head when I was thinking about a leader of men who could command as much respect as Vardy. Could Maddison or Yuri come to the fore in this regard, I wonder? It doesn't seem impossible.

[Foxaholic ME]

On 22/07/2020 at 19:55, shailen said:

At least they meant it doesn't go down to goal difference for us. We just need to win. 

I keep seeing we have to win a Chelsea defeat again surely means a drawwill do