Brighton and Hove Albion u17s v Leicester City u17s Cup Game

[filbertway]

1 minute ago, Kilworthfox said:

Short term minor player issue.

 

Actually a benefit to the team as its another experience that they will have collectively.

I'm surprised anyone would question why it would be handy to have more talented players coming through the ranks in all positions to be honest. I don't really know what to say.

 

 

 

[Kilworthfox]

1 minute ago, filbertway said:

I'm surprised anyone would question why it would be handy to have more talented players coming through the ranks in all positions to be honest. I don't really know what to say.

 

 

 

I never wrote such a thing. 

 

I wrote that sometimes in football, just like in life, not everything goes to plan, and when this happens, individually & collectively one need to find a way to success, when operating in a competitive environment. Sometimes this leads to losses, this is essential in creating winners!

 

Otherwise you'd have a team full of inexperienced players who will never get anywhere. 

[filbertway]

3 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

I never wrote such a thing. 

 

I wrote that sometimes in football, just like in life, not everything goes to plan, and when this happens, individually & collectively one need to find a way to success, when operating in a competitive environment. Sometimes this leads to losses, this is essential in creating winners!

 

Otherwise you'd have a team full of inexperienced players who will never get anywhere. 

Ric said:  I just don't get where the wingers and attackers are? Why aren't there more? I'm not even talking about whether they are good enough, we just don't even seem to be arsed about having more options.

You said:  Why should the club be?

 

You said why should the club be bothered about having attacking players coming through the youth teams. Feel free to correct me if i've interepreted that wrong...

 

[Foxy-Lady]

30 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

Why should the club be?

I understand what you're saying but why wouldn't it be a concern to them as we are striving as a club to be the benchmark in all that we do

 

Do you think there is something in the water in leicestershire that stops kids developing into technically accomplished attacking players......or do you think there might be a wider issue surrounding the ability of our coaching teams to develop attacking players?

 

BR has an outstanding record for developing youth talent and i wouldn't be surprised if it would be a question he himself might be asking...   

[Kilworthfox]

OK...

 

The answer is, that Academy football is competitive football, this doesn't mean that we have to win every game, as at these age groups, it is all about development.

 

The academy produces players, but can only produce players basked on their skillsets when they arrive between the ages of 6 to 14  from the local area. Then after 14 the club can recruit nationally, and after 16 the club can offer contracts to anyone who has the right to work here.

 

If there are gaps due to injury, then maybe that space is needed for when the player returns? Would be odd to bring in a player to cover an injury at 17? Surely the 17 year old has to be given the opportunity to recover from any injury and develop to hopefully be either a first team player or a player the club can sell and profit from.

 

Also a duty of care is paramount, where the club can not just draft in a young player because we have an apparent reason to (Game) where we will be short and the result may not be a win? It's not like the game is the world cup final.... Therefore we have to understand that its development football, not winning football like in the first team!

 

 

Its all about positive experiences, and a defeat at 17, is a positive experience as who would the player be if they only ever won matches? How would they handle defeat in the first team?

 

Tactical changes are also going to happen in future, and to be adaptable for such an eventuality is also a positive experience!

 

Edited 22 April 2021 by Kilworthfox

[Kilworthfox]

4 minutes ago, Foxy-Lady said:

I understand what you're saying but why wouldn't it be a concern to them as we are striving as a club to be the benchmark in all that we do

 

Do you think there is something in the water in leicestershire that stops kids developing into technically accomplished attacking players......or do you think there might be a wider issue surrounding the ability of our coaching teams to develop attacking players?

 

BR has an outstanding record for developing youth talent and i wouldn't be surprised if it would be a question he himself might be asking...   

Yeah but this is u17, its literally nothing to do with BR.

 

You may have a point re the coaching...

 

However: You can only make a delicious meal with the right ingredients. To inform you, Leicester in particular is a rich area for talented footballers, that Derby for example is not.

[Foxy-Lady]

51 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

Yeah but this is u17, its literally nothing to do with BR.

 

You may have a point re the coaching...

 

However: You can only make a delicious meal with the right ingredients. To inform you, Leicester in particular is a rich area for talented footballers, that Derby for example is not.

You'll probably find BR takes an interest in all things football related at the club because of his interest in Yth.....probably from U14s upwards. 

 

Your point about leicester in particular being such a rich area for talented footballers merely emphasis the point about coaching and the lack of talented attackers being produced through our U16s?

 

And as for your analogy, i do like that but i have a totally different take on it to you. 

In my experience,  A great chef can make a delicious meal with ANY ingredients (I used to live with one!).... but you could give the best ingredients in the world to a poor chef and he could still make a mess of it.

Much the same as coaching.....put the most talented kids in the hands of poor coaches and what do you think the likely end product will look like?

 

[Kilworthfox]

16 up I'll accept. 

 

The club has some phenomenal coaches, both full time and part time. The clubs has also some average ones just running sessions without being interested in developing and challenging all the players. 

 

Leicester have in the last 5 years gone from the league 1 attitude towards professionalism, accountability and mentality to I'd say a Premier league outfit academy wise.... But there's more to be achieved, and the mentality that accepted mediocrity will hopefully be weadled out root and branch. Sadly it still exists, but some staff will eventually retire. 

 

There is a fundamental issue still! The initial pathway and pholosophies completely change from academy to u16+ I know we have discussed this before. #putitinthemixer is a joke within my circle 

[Ric Flair]

2 hours ago, Kilworthfox said:

Why should the club be?

Why shouldn't the club be bothered that the have way fewer attacking options in their academy ranks than other positions? Erm because it shows a disparity in development.

 

If the club aren't concerned with lack of options coming through from U16's to 18's to 23's in certain positions then why do we sign several young goalkeepers a season?

 

How on earth have you found that difficult to grasp?

[Kilworthfox]

On the GK's because they do not believe the current ones will progress to where they want them too. 

 

They won't be overly concerned as its not about winning, it's about individuals, potential and future resale value. 

[jeffschlupp]

I'm not sure we should put much emphasis on position at the younger age groups. What you are looking for is well-rounded players with decision-making intelligence - it's obvious that all of these players are going to be mostly technically sound, but the ones that make it have got a brain too.

 

Luke Thomas played on the wing quite often for the U18s (and scored a fair few times too), and later for the U23s in front of Ughelumba. Harvey Barnes played virtually everywhere for Beaglehole, often in central midfield. Josh Knight played in lots of different positions and has proved his versatility. The more experience you give any player in multiple positions, the more general game awareness you are going to give them. Football, like any industry should surely be about giving people lots of experience in lots of different scenarios.

 

There would be no point in the club recruiting forwards and wingers that they didn't think had what it takes, just for the sake of it. And most players, in all positions, don't make it. Perhaps there is a bias in the youth coaching that when players come to them, they seem better at coaching defensive players so they mould more players into that style. But I look at the last three to really get their first team breakthrough here - Barnes is excellent going forwards; Thomas is one of the finest crossers of a ball I've seen; and Sidnei Tavares has got a real touch of class about him. 

 

The bigger thing for me should be style of play, but that's been discussed to death on here. You have got to reflect a top flight, possession-having Premier League side in your youth teams. And we don't do that.

Edited 22 April 2021 by jeffschlupp

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, Kilworthfox said:

OK...

 

The answer is, that Academy football is competitive football, this doesn't mean that we have to win every game, as at these age groups, it is all about development.

 

The academy produces players, but can only produce players basked on their skillsets when they arrive between the ages of 6 to 14  from the local area. Then after 14 the club can recruit nationally, and after 16 the club can offer contracts to anyone who has the right to work here.

 

If there are gaps due to injury, then maybe that space is needed for when the player returns? Would be odd to bring in a player to cover an injury at 17? Surely the 17 year old has to be given the opportunity to recover from any injury and develop to hopefully be either a first team player or a player the club can sell and profit from.

 

Also a duty of care is paramount, where the club can not just draft in a young player because we have an apparent reason to (Game) where we will be short and the result may not be a win? It's not like the game is the world cup final.... Therefore we have to understand that its development football, not winning football like in the first team!

 

 

Its all about positive experiences, and a defeat at 17, is a positive experience as who would the player be if they only ever won matches? How would they handle defeat in the first team?

 

Tactical changes are also going to happen in future, and to be adaptable for such an eventuality is also a positive experience!

 

...the answer to that, would be the Academy selects a certain type of player!!!

   There are thousands of skillful players out there, some who play Non League, semi professional or for their local pub on a Sunday, who had the skillset but not the mentality to pursue a career in the game. If you were to look into the various forms of sport and you will find siblings of well known stars who had as much if not more talent but did not make it due to an inability to commit to a way of life, which they viewed would curtail their freedom of choice.

  We seem to be looking at the character more than the skillset, and viewing this, a more sure-fire way of bringing through the right type of player.

  It is very much the run of the mill players populating our academy and the mavericks are nowhere to be seen. 

[Kilworthfox]

I agreed with you until you wrote run of the mill. No player at any academy let alone Leicester is run of the mill, otherwise they wouldn't be there. 

 

Some do slip through or develop later. Physically or mentally. There is no 1 exact answer for perfect development... What I can tell you is that every allowance is made at lcfc and other academies for the boys who show exceptional talent, irrespective of size. 

Edited 22 April 2021 by Kilworthfox

[Ric Flair]

36 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

On the GK's because they do not believe the current ones will progress to where they want them too. 

 

They won't be overly concerned as its not about winning, it's about individuals, potential and future resale value. 

Hahahahaaaa again if that's the case they'd be signing plenty of 16-20 year old wingers and strikers too as there's no few coming through so how can they be content with them?

 

On the goalkeepers we've got an American senior international in there, a Polish U21 International, the lad we signed from Chelsea a few months ago, the lad who was academy player of the year, then a few others and yet we are still going and buying others. It's not as if it's because there's a worry we need a goalkeeper to come and be in the 1st team as they have Daniel Iversen for that. 

[Kilworthfox]

38 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

I'm not sure we should put much emphasis on position at the younger age groups. What you are looking for is well-rounded players with decision-making intelligence - it's obvious that all of these players are going to be mostly technically sound, but the ones that make it have got a brain too.

 

Luke Thomas played on the wing quite often for the U18s (and scored a fair few times too), and later for the U23s in front of Ughelumba. Harvey Barnes played virtually everywhere for Beaglehole, often in central midfield. Josh Knight played in lots of different positions and has proved his versatility. The more experience you give any player in multiple positions, the more general game awareness you are going to give them. Football, like any industry should surely be about giving people lots of experience in lots of different scenarios.

 

There would be no point in the club recruiting forwards and wingers that they didn't think had what it takes, just for the sake of it. And most players, in all positions, don't make it. Perhaps there is a bias in the youth coaching that when players come to them, they seem better at coaching defensive players so they mould more players into that style. But I look at the last three to really get their first team breakthrough here - Barnes is excellent going forwards; Thomas is one of the finest crossers of a ball I've seen; and Sidnei Tavares has got a real touch of class about him. 

 

The bigger thing for me should be style of play, but that's been discussed to death on here. You have got to reflect a top flight, possession-having Premier League side in your youth teams. And we don't do that.

What you look for is exceptional. 

 

Thats it. Exceptional at x thing... The rest can be worked on. 

[Ric Flair]

39 minutes ago, jeffschlupp said:

I'm not sure we should put much emphasis on position at the younger age groups. What you are looking for is well-rounded players with decision-making intelligence - it's obvious that all of these players are going to be mostly technically sound, but the ones that make it have got a brain too.

 

Luke Thomas played on the wing quite often for the U18s (and scored a fair few times too), and later for the U23s in front of Ughelumba. Harvey Barnes played virtually everywhere for Beaglehole, often in central midfield. Josh Knight played in lots of different positions and has proved his versatility. The more experience you give any player in multiple positions, the more general game awareness you are going to give them. Football, like any industry should surely be about giving people lots of experience in lots of different scenarios.

 

There would be no point in the club recruiting forwards and wingers that they didn't think had what it takes, just for the sake of it. And most players, in all positions, don't make it. Perhaps there is a bias in the youth coaching that when players come to them, they seem better at coaching defensive players so they mould more players into that style. But I look at the last three to really get their first team breakthrough here - Barnes is excellent going forwards; Thomas is one of the finest crossers of a ball I've seen; and Sidnei Tavares has got a real touch of class about him. 

 

The bigger thing for me should be style of play, but that's been discussed to death on here. You have got to reflect a top flight, possession-having Premier League side in your youth teams. And we don't do that.

I know what you're saying there's a number of technically sound players who play in midfield thst could probably play in a few positions but strikers are strikers on the whole and we barely have any, it's odd. Even Kian Pennant is more of a wide forward until this last year, where are the out and out strikers in the 16-19 bracket?

[Kilworthfox]

1 minute ago, Ric Flair said:

Hahahahaaaa again if that's the case they'd be signing plenty of 16-20 year old wingers and strikers too as there's no few coming through so how can they be content with them?

 

On the goalkeepers we've got an American senior international in there, a Polish U21 International, the lad we signed from Chelsea a few months ago, the lad who was academy player of the year, then a few others and yet we are still going and buying others. It's not as if it's because there's a worry we need a goalkeeper to come and be in the 1st team as they have Daniel Iversen for that. 

If they aren't content then they are released it's very simple. 

 

I am sure if a few members of the academy recruitment team all signed off on a striker or winger of the ages you suggest then the club wouild buy them if the budget allowed without any doubt. 

[Ric Flair]

Just now, Kilworthfox said:

If they aren't content then they are released it's very simple. 

 

I am sure if a few members of the academy recruitment team all signed off on a striker or winger of the ages you suggest then the club wouild buy them if the budget allowed without any doubt. 

But why aren't they bringing strikers and wingers in then? Unless they are content with not having many which I go back to my first point of them not seemingly being bothered which you said why should they be and then go on to contradict yourself when they collect goalkeepers like women's kegs. It's bizarre but I've long stopped trying to fathom out how our academy operates as its ridiculous. Shocking for a club of our ambition.

[Kilworthfox]

15 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

But why aren't they bringing strikers and wingers in then? Unless they are content with not having many which I go back to my first point of them not seemingly being bothered which you said why should they be and then go on to contradict yourself when they collect goalkeepers like women's kegs. It's bizarre but I've long stopped trying to fathom out how our academy operates as its ridiculous. Shocking for a club of our ambition.

I was asking a question rather than contradicting you. Why should they? 

 

Hold on.. These aren't necessarily my views! 

 

I'm not emotional about it, these are the facts as I saw them. I didn't understand how it worked, now I have some insight. Maybe I'm daft for sharing? 

 

That is the issue 99% of ft members on here won't understand, it's football. Unless you've been in the environment, it won't always seem logical. 

 

To answer the why? Well staff competence can be questioned of course. 

 

Then to add new players, you have to find them, they have to want to come, and a fee has to be agreed with a club unless they are unattached which is highly unlikely. Also expectation on a 16 or 17 player as a new addition will not be that high as they need to integrate and they are still a child... 

 

Leicester never used to have much of a budget for youth players! That has changed in the last 3 years. The scouting team used to be 1 full time and a few (handful) of helpers. Now that's all changed. 

 

You are assuming that they see the depth as an issue... It could be argued that its a strength to have game time opportunities for players and have opportunities to play in their 2nd or 3rd favourite positions to cover injuries??? Literally anything could be justified. 

 

Oh and on the ambition... Its slowly changing to an elite mentality, but the club has moved from championship to champions league with the same staff, it will take time for changes to be implemented with a change of mantaliyy or change of employment status... But targets have to be given and not met before someone can be managed out. 

 

Edited 22 April 2021 by Kilworthfox

[sacreblueits442]

13 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

I agreed with you until you wrote run of the mill. No player at any academy let alone Leicester is run of the mill, otherwise they wouldn't be there. 

 

Some do slip through or develop later. Physically or mentally. There is no 1 exact answer for perfect development... What I can tell you is that every allowance is made at lcfc and other academies for the boys who show exceptional talent, irrespective of size. 

...have you seen the players for the U23s which we play against!!!

  They are all technically way ahead of us and I have mentioned more than once we need to bring in coaches to develop that part of our game.

  Size is not something that I take much of a view of, so far as football is concerned, the big thing is, the innate skillset by the individual and the ability for that individual to benefit from coaching.

[Kilworthfox]

5 minutes ago, sacreblueits442 said:

...have you seen the players for the U23s which we play against!!!

  They are all technically way ahead of us and I have mentioned more than once we need to bring in coaches to develop that part of our game.

  Size is not something that I take much of a view of, so far as football is concerned, the big thing is, the innate skillset by the individual and the ability for that individual to benefit from coaching.

All?  I can't believe that is possible. 

 

If you are suggesting that some coaches need to be moved along I 100% agree. I know that some coaches... (no names) have been offered the 1st team manager job at their home town clubs, but won't move as they are on a good ticket at lcfc. 

Edited 22 April 2021 by Kilworthfox

[sacreblueits442]

2 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

All?  I can't believe that is possible. 

 

If you are suggesting that some coaches need to be moved along I 100% agree. I know that some coaches... (no names) have been offered the 1st team manager job at their home town clubs, but won't move as they are on a good ticket at lcfc. 

...yes, the U23s are that bad (technically)!!!

[Kilworthfox]

Maybe they are being asked to do something totally alien to what they have been educated to do for the last 15 years? 

[Foxy-Lady]

5 minutes ago, Kilworthfox said:

All?  I can't believe that is possible. 

 

If you are suggesting that some coaches need to be moved along I 100% agree. I know that some coaches... (no names) have been offered the 1st team manager job at their home town clubs, but won't move as they are on a good ticket at lcfc. 

Hard to believe that any of our coaches from U23 level downwards have been offered the 1st team managers job at their home town club........unless their home town club happens to be somewhere like Wigston  or Birstall??  

[Kilworthfox]

3 minutes ago, Foxy-Lady said:

Hard to believe that any of our coaches from U23 level downwards have been offered the 1st team managers job at their home town club........unless their home town club happens to be somewhere like Wigston  or Birstall??  

I didn't offer it to him 😂