US Gun Violence

[ClaphamFox]

17 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Indeed I retract - very strange how the media have misgendered this man in this way.  You can bet if it was a trans woman they would have had the right pronouns.

The right pronouns have been used in this case. Audrey Hale was a woman, albeit one one apparently identified as a man. If the media also used the correct pronouns when men commit crimes, there would be no room for confusion. 

 

As to whether Audrey Hale's transgender status had anything to do with her committing this crime, we just don't know at this stage. There aren't enough details to form a view, so it's probably best to just leave that question to one side until more facts are established.

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

The right pronouns have been used in this case. Audrey Hale was a woman, albeit one one apparently identified as a man. If the media also used the correct pronouns when men commit crimes, there would be no room for confusion. 

 

As to whether Audrey Hale's transgender status had anything to do with her committing this crime, we just don't know at this stage. There aren't enough details to form a view, so it's probably best to just leave that question to one side until more facts are established.

Perhaps the media have a different and more accurate definition of pronouns to report and when to report them than some of the public does.

 

Perhaps.

 

But yes, probably best to wait until more information comes to light.

[marbles]

Do pronouns really matter in the case of a nutcase who killed children?

ffs what is this world becoming

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, marbles said:

Do pronouns really matter in the case of a nutcase who killed children?

ffs what is this world becoming

No, gun control and better access to mental healthcare matter.

 

But it seems various powers that be in the US aren't ready for that discussion and what it would entail, so here we are, sending "thoughts and prayers" again.

[marbles]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

No, gun control and better access to mental healthcare matter.

 

But it seems various powers that be in the US aren't ready for that discussion and what it would entail, so here we are, sending "thoughts and prayers" again.

There’s a lot of things we should be discussing.

Gun control

Why all schools are locked

Why all schools don’t have police presence

Mental healthcare

 

What shouldn’t be discussed is how someone identifies, and whether or not the media (or we) got it right, after they gun down innocent children.

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

There’s a lot of things we should be discussing.

Gun control

Why all schools are locked

Why all schools don’t have police presence

Mental healthcare

 

What shouldn’t be discussed is how someone identifies, and whether or not the media (or we) got it right, after they gun down innocent children.

 

I agree.

 

Now let those powers that be in the US get out of the way so they can be discussed. Or not, and they can continue raking in that tidy NRA donation income.

[marbles]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I agree.

 

Now let those powers that be in the US get out of the way so they can be discussed. Or not, and they can continue raking in that tidy NRA donation income.

All of them would have to get out of the way

The republicans who don’t want to do anything, and the democrats who only want to do something because it goes against the opposition.

The whole system is f**ked.

 

 

[Foxdiamond]

From this side of the pond it is so hard to understand this love of guns and that even more will help keep people safe. 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, marbles said:

All of them would have to get out of the way

The republicans who don’t want to do anything, and the democrats who only want to do something because it goes against the opposition.

The whole system is f**ked.

 

 

Which in this case, would be the right thing, even if someone thought it wasn't for the right reasons.

[marbles]

The crazies in this country started  shooting up public areas.  Then college campuses.  Eventually they moved on to high schools and now elementary schools.

Im guessing daycares will be next, and then what?  Maternity wards?  Where will they target after that

[marbles]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Which in this case, would be the right thing, even if someone thought it wasn't for the right reasons.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend - yeah, that never works out either.

 

Half-assing solutions won’t solve anything.  
Sad thing is, I’m not sure what an actual solution would be.

 

[marbles]

5 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

From this side of the pond it is so hard to understand this love of guns and that even more will help keep people safe. 

Two things at play.

The love of guns, and the fear of those who love guns - both lead to more people buying guns.

 

Some interesting research 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

 

 

[Bordersfox]

13 minutes ago, marbles said:

Two things at play.

The love of guns, and the fear of those who love guns - both lead to more people buying guns.

 

Some interesting research 

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/

 

 

Interesting article that, thanks.  I find it absolutely extraordinary that 28% of republicans favour less stringent gun regulations.

 

I really cannot begin to fathom what mental acrobatics must occur to justify that to yourself.  

[leicsmac]

59 minutes ago, marbles said:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend - yeah, that never works out either.

 

Half-assing solutions won’t solve anything.  
Sad thing is, I’m not sure what an actual solution would be.

 

I do, but the vested interests in the US would never see it happen.

 

40 minutes ago, Bordersfox said:

Interesting article that, thanks.  I find it absolutely extraordinary that 28% of republicans favour less stringent gun regulations.

 

I really cannot begin to fathom what mental acrobatics must occur to justify that to yourself.  

Valuing ethereal ideas over direct immediate human life in a few different ways, for starters.

[Foxdiamond]

Seems very odd to hang onto the second amendment of 1791. Surely things have changed since then. Anyway too late to put the genie back in the bottle. 

[westernpark]

3 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Seems very odd to hang onto the second amendment of 1791. Surely things have changed since then. Anyway too late to put the genie back in the bottle. 

Yes, I was under the impression that the constitution was created under the premise that it could be adapted in the future. Of course there was more of a need to be armed at the point it was created.

[marbles]

54 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I do, but the vested interests in the US would never see it happen

I can guess - but it’s just not feasible.

Im sure it entails completely banning guns, but how would you enforce it when law enforcement is completely outgunned?

Military?  Surely you know that there are people in the military who do not agree with stricter gun laws - how would you deal with that, if you knew that 50% (being generous, it’s most likely a lot higher) of your military would disobey your order?  Whether or not you know this, most people who get out of the military go on to own several firearms.

 

Stopping the sales is the first step, but you are delusional if you think rounding the guns up is the second step - that’s a step I just can’t see ever happening.  We are too far gone for that to be a viable solution.

 

 

 

- if this is what you were thinking

 

 

 

 

Edited 28 March 2023 by marbles

[marbles]

16 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Seems very odd to hang onto the second amendment of 1791. Surely things have changed since then. Anyway too late to put the genie back in the bottle. 

The argument is simple - if they repeal that Amendment, which one will be next?

I mean some people on here want to abolish the 1st (and not just here to be honest).

Im sure the 4th, 5th and 6th wouldn’t be too far behind.  If you get rid of them, the 8th becomes pointless.

 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, marbles said:

The argument is simple - if they repeal that Amendment, which one will be next?

I mean some people on here want to abolish the 1st (and not just here to be honest).

Im sure the 4th, 5th and 6th wouldn’t be too far behind.  If you get rid of them, the 8th becomes pointless.

 

I understand your points. Seems crazy from the outside that something that is not fit for purpose cannot be repealed without a danger to the rest.  Please forgive my simple view as obviously I am not a US citizen.  Does the gun lobby in the States think countries like the UK with strong gun laws think we suffering a less free life?

[marbles]

8 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I understand your points. Seems crazy from the outside that something that is not fit for purpose cannot be repealed without a danger to the rest.  Please forgive my simple view as obviously I am not a US citizen.  Does the gun lobby in the States think countries like the UK with strong gun laws think we suffering a less free life?

To be honest, I don’t think they give any thoughts to the UK in terms of gun control or freedom.

It could be the US mentality of “we are the greatest, so who cares about everyone else”.

 

You will hear it every once in awhile - look at the British, or the French.  The rebuttal is usually along the lines of, “yeah look at Cuba”.

 

The big scare tactic is, take away the guns and nothing can stop out government from becoming authoritarian.

 

Its a strange conundrum.

The republicans are in bed with the gun manufacturers, so they won’t do anything about it.

The democrats claim to be against guns, but seem to do everything in their power to drive people to buy more.

Maybe the real answer is to take all these guns we have and use them to overthrow this mess of a government.  Start over.

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, marbles said:

To be honest, I don’t think they give any thoughts to the UK in terms of gun control or freedom.

It could be the US mentality of “we are the greatest, so who cares about everyone else”.

 

You will hear it every once in awhile - look at the British, or the French.  The rebuttal is usually along the lines of, “yeah look at Cuba”.

 

The big scare tactic is, take away the guns and nothing can stop out government from becoming authoritarian.

 

Its a strange conundrum.

The republicans are in bed with the gun manufacturers, so they won’t do anything about it.

The democrats claim to be against guns, but seem to do everything in their power to drive people to buy more.

Maybe the real answer is to take all these guns we have and use them to overthrow this mess of a government.  Start over.

I would worry who you got to run the country then. The US is so vital as the democratic superpower yet a prisoner of your dependence on guns. I can't understand why the heavy duty military stuff is needed for self protection. Do the people fear their elected government so much that they would seriously see your regular army and police etc as a potential foe?

[grobyfox1990]

17 minutes ago, marbles said:

To be honest, I don’t think they give any thoughts to the UK in terms of gun control or freedom.

It could be the US mentality of “we are the greatest, so who cares about everyone else”.

 

You will hear it every once in awhile - look at the British, or the French.  The rebuttal is usually along the lines of, “yeah look at Cuba”.

 

The big scare tactic is, take away the guns and nothing can stop out government from becoming authoritarian.

 

Its a strange conundrum.

The republicans are in bed with the gun manufacturers, so they won’t do anything about it.

The democrats claim to be against guns, but seem to do everything in their power to drive people to buy more.

Maybe the real answer is to take all these guns we have and use them to overthrow this mess of a government.  Start over.

Take it you are American and live over there, this was a similar viewpoint I remember from when I worked in DC. Which was baffling because I thought the east coast cities would be different. A colleague/friend of mine lived in an apartment block in central DC behind 4 locked doors. Yet had a gun under his bed, bedside table, strapped to the door and under the sink. Two in the boot of his car. Was learning how to skin an animal ‘in case the govt took away the food supply.’ Also had dual British citizenship in case ‘America burned’ 

 

Post trump is this still the attitude in the cities? I guess in the bible/traditional belt it’s only gotten stronger? 

[marbles]

Just now, Foxdiamond said:

I would worry who you got to run the country then. The US is so vital as the democratic superpower yet a prisoner of your dependence on guns. I can't understand why the heavy duty military stuff is needed for self protection. Do the people fear their elected government so much that they would seriously see your regular army and police etc as a potential foe?

There really is no point to the heavy duty weaponry.

IMO, it started out as just the next step in collecting.  Handguns first (semi followed by auto).  Then came the bigger rifles, and it just grew from there.

I know a lot of people who have guns they don't need, but have them because they "collect" them.  From 9mm all the way to SOCOM sniper rifles.

Just like people say tattoos are addictive, gun collectors say the same thing - AR's being the most popular.

There guns are usually locked away.  Taken out only for target shooting, or cleaning.

 

I think the people who genuinely see the police/military as a potential foe, are the nutbags who stockpile weapons and ammo.

There is just no reason to have a full arsenal.  You collect?  Okay, that's a handgun.  Maybe a revolver and semi auto, plus a rifle.  Throw in some ammo for good measure.

I own one handgun, and have maybe 100 rounds plus another 100 rounds of target ammo for when I go to the range.  That's it.  That's all I need.

People with several ARs, heavy duty weapons and 1000s of rounds have only 2 reasons for this.

They either think a war is coming, or want to kill a lot of people. 

There guns are most likely sitting in a closet or storage shed, for easy access.

These people are the problem.  

      

[marbles]

16 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Take it you are American and live over there, this was a similar viewpoint I remember from when I worked in DC. Which was baffling because I thought the east coast cities would be different. A colleague/friend of mine lived in an apartment block in central DC behind 4 locked doors. Yet had a gun under his bed, bedside table, strapped to the door and under the sink. Two in the boot of his car. Was learning how to skin an animal ‘in case the govt took away the food supply.’ Also had dual British citizenship in case ‘America burned’ 

 

Post trump is this still the attitude in the cities? I guess in the bible/traditional belt it’s only gotten stronger? 

Yup, here in lovely Texas.

Where its legal to open carry at your local McDonalds, but illegal to smoke marijuana in the privacy of your own home

 

The thing with Trump, is that he validated the fears that some people already had, while simultaneously developing fears in people that may not have had them originally. 

He basically said "They will come for you, but I will stand in their way".

Is the attitude still in the cities? Yes.  But I think its partially because of Trump and partially because of a perceived lawlessness in certain cities. 

The biggest chain store in the US (Walmart) has completely pulled out of Portland due to crime and lack of prosecutions.

Both Amazon and the Railroad commission threatened to stop running in California if something wasn't done about the crime.

 

I dont think there is just one thing that can be pointed to as a reason people arm themselves - if there was, it would be easy to fix.

I read an article that said the two biggest drivers of people buying guns has been COVD Lockdowns and Defund The Police.

COVID Lockdowns could be a fear of the government/country breaking down, while Defund is a fear that the government will no longer be able to protect its citizens. 

Problem now is, even if people start to feel safe again and feel they no longer need to protect themselves, the guns are still out there.  Waiting to be used by someone.

 

   

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, marbles said:

Yup, here in lovely Texas.

Where its legal to open carry at your local McDonalds, but illegal to smoke marijuana in the privacy of your own home

 

The thing with Trump, is that he validated the fears that some people already had, while simultaneously developing fears in people that may not have had them originally. 

He basically said "They will come for you, but I will stand in their way".

Is the attitude still in the cities? Yes.  But I think its partially because of Trump and partially because of a perceived lawlessness in certain cities. 

The biggest chain store in the US (Walmart) has completely pulled out of Portland due to crime and lack of prosecutions.

Both Amazon and the Railroad commission threatened to stop running in California if something wasn't done about the crime.

 

I dont think there is just one thing that can be pointed to as a reason people arm themselves - if there was, it would be easy to fix.

I read an article that said the two biggest drivers of people buying guns has been COVD Lockdowns and Defund The Police.

COVID Lockdowns could be a fear of the government/country breaking down, while Defund is a fear that the government will no longer be able to protect its citizens. 

Problem now is, even if people start to feel safe again and feel they no longer need to protect themselves, the guns are still out there.  Waiting to be used by someone.

 

   

A sad situation. Lots of issues here in UK but thankfully and touch wood not guns to nearly the same degree.