US Gun Violence

[grobyfox1990]

8 minutes ago, marbles said:

Yup, here in lovely Texas.

Where its legal to open carry at your local McDonalds, but illegal to smoke marijuana in the privacy of your own home

 

The thing with Trump, is that he validated the fears that some people already had, while simultaneously developing fears in people that may not have had them originally. 

He basically said "They will come for you, but I will stand in their way".

Is the attitude still in the cities? Yes.  But I think its partially because of Trump and partially because of a perceived lawlessness in certain cities. 

The biggest chain store in the US (Walmart) has completely pulled out of Portland due to crime and lack of prosecutions.

Both Amazon and the Railroad commission threatened to stop running in California if something wasn't done about the crime.

 

I dont think there is just one thing that can be pointed to as a reason people arm themselves - if there was, it would be easy to fix.

I read an article that said the two biggest drivers of people buying guns has been COVD Lockdowns and Defund The Police.

COVID Lockdowns could be a fear of the government/country breaking down, while Defund is a fear that the government will no longer be able to protect its citizens. 

Problem now is, even if people start to feel safe again and feel they no longer need to protect themselves, the guns are still out there.  Waiting to be used by someone.

 

   

Wow. I didn’t have a clue about the situation in Portland and California!! Thanks for your reply, really informative.

 

I do remember when I was there never seeing ghettos like it in the developed world. Baltimore being a good example. We’d be in the bright lights of DC one minute then unholy poverty the next. I was there during the trump campaign and totally understood why so many voted for him. ‘We have nothing now, the current system doesn’t help us, we have nothing to lose by voting trump because we’re already at the bottom’ - makes sense 

[marbles]

6 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Wow. I didn’t have a clue about the situation in Portland and California!! Thanks for your reply, really informative.

 

I do remember when I was there never seeing ghettos like it in the developed world. Baltimore being a good example. We’d be in the bright lights of DC one minute then unholy poverty the next. I was there during the trump campaign and totally understood why so many voted for him. ‘We have nothing now, the current system doesn’t help us, we have nothing to lose by voting trump because we’re already at the bottom’ - makes sense 

California issue was last year during constant train robberies.  Think they have that issue settled because I haven't heard about it lately.

The issues in Portland have been ongoing for a couple years - but the major businesses pulling out have just recently started in the past couple months.

 

I actually grew up in Maryland, just south of Baltimore.  I actually thought that's how all major cities were.  

Moved to Texas when I was 19 and saw the difference. 

Ft Worth is like Baltimore.  Rundown, with lots of poverty. 

Dallas is the complete opposite.   

 

 

 

[grobyfox1990]

18 minutes ago, marbles said:

California issue was last year during constant train robberies.  Think they have that issue settled because I haven't heard about it lately.

The issues in Portland have been ongoing for a couple years - but the major businesses pulling out have just recently started in the past couple months.

 

I actually grew up in Maryland, just south of Baltimore.  I actually thought that's how all major cities were.  

Moved to Texas when I was 19 and saw the difference. 

Ft Worth is like Baltimore.  Rundown, with lots of poverty. 

Dallas is the complete opposite.   

 

 

 

Mental. Which reminds me I’ve got leave approved for a good mates wedding in Mexico City in October, he lives in McAllen. Hoping to get to the f1 at the circuit of America’s a few days after but tickets seem to be difficult. Regardless will likely go to Texas to see some sport, will remember your username and ask for tips nearer the time! 

[Captain...]

5 hours ago, marbles said:

I can guess - but it’s just not feasible.

Im sure it entails completely banning guns, but how would you enforce it when law enforcement is completely outgunned?

Military?  Surely you know that there are people in the military who do not agree with stricter gun laws - how would you deal with that, if you knew that 50% (being generous, it’s most likely a lot higher) of your military would disobey your order?  Whether or not you know this, most people who get out of the military go on to own several firearms.

 

Stopping the sales is the first step, but you are delusional if you think rounding the guns up is the second step - that’s a step I just can’t see ever happening.  We are too far gone for that to be a viable solution.

 

 

 

- if this is what you were thinking

 

 

 

 

It's not just about controlling sales, but that's a start, the constitutional right to bear arms is not the same as the right to buy assault rifles that could kill multiple people in a matter of minutes without any sort of checking. There are many ways gun control laws could manage the way guns are sold, that would still leave a lot of guns out there.

 

The other way is to look at the hard on America has for guns. Look at how they are promoted as fun for all the family, it's so crazy to us Limeys that anyone, let alone politicians, would pose like that with guns and their kids.

 

It's not going to be easy or quick, but it will eventually work, the problem is the people that double down every time there is a tragedy and proclaim guns to be the solution to guns and advocate for more guns.

[Foxdiamond]

2 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Wow. I didn’t have a clue about the situation in Portland and California!! Thanks for your reply, really informative.

 

I do remember when I was there never seeing ghettos like it in the developed world. Baltimore being a good example. We’d be in the bright lights of DC one minute then unholy poverty the next. I was there during the trump campaign and totally understood why so many voted for him. ‘We have nothing now, the current system doesn’t help us, we have nothing to lose by voting trump because we’re already at the bottom’ - makes sense 

We don't have the gun problems in the UK but I worry we are going down the road here of more and more inequality. This as I mentioned in another thread about housing will result in more crime 

[Jon the Hat]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

It's not just about controlling sales, but that's a start, the constitutional right to bear arms is not the same as the right to buy assault rifles that could kill multiple people in a matter of minutes without any sort of checking. There are many ways gun control laws could manage the way guns are sold, that would still leave a lot of guns out there.

 

The other way is to look at the hard on America has for guns. Look at how they are promoted as fun for all the family, it's so crazy to us Limeys that anyone, let alone politicians, would pose like that with guns and their kids.

 

It's not going to be easy or quick, but it will eventually work, the problem is the people that double down every time there is a tragedy and proclaim guns to be the solution to guns and advocate for more guns.

The only way to even start this is to completely change the way politics is funded in the US.  While the NRA can buy political power it is impossible.

[KFS]

I’m so ****ing done with this topic and I’ve only lived here close to five years. The sickening thing is the body cam looks like any school, my son’s school even. Most of them agree they don’t even need them any more but the ****ed up politicians are being kept in power by their NRA mates. This needs serious serious lobbying. 

[leicsmac]

9 hours ago, marbles said:

I can guess - but it’s just not feasible.

Im sure it entails completely banning guns, but how would you enforce it when law enforcement is completely outgunned?

Military?  Surely you know that there are people in the military who do not agree with stricter gun laws - how would you deal with that, if you knew that 50% (being generous, it’s most likely a lot higher) of your military would disobey your order?  Whether or not you know this, most people who get out of the military go on to own several firearms.

 

Stopping the sales is the first step, but you are delusional if you think rounding the guns up is the second step - that’s a step I just can’t see ever happening.  We are too far gone for that to be a viable solution.

 

- if this is what you were thinking

 

Actually, I've said this before but I'll say it again - I agree that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to the number of guns in circulation, so getting those out of circulation is likely a fools errand, yes. Additionally, other countries allow the carry of gund and have much fewer such problems. What needs changing is the mentality behind it all, and for that...

 

- repeal Citizens United immediately, political lobbying by any corporation in general and the NRA in particular in this case is completely off the table

- reform the healthcare system: greater access to mental healthcare for everyone who needs it. Other forms of healthcare too, but that's the one that's important here.

- actually make efforts to address domestic poverty and inequality on a large scale, rather than abandoning entire communities to their fate and so having them turn to crime.

- and yes, regulate current sales of guns better and offer generous amnesties for ones already in circulation, but don't seek to come for them by coercion.

 

Of course, none of the above will happen because there's too many powerful people making bank from all the death and suffering in the status quo and feeding everyone else the ridiculous lie of American exceptionalism through savvy media manipulation so they don't rock the boat and keep it that way, but it's good to talk about.

[Jon the Hat]

46 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Actually, I've said this before but I'll say it again - I agree that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to the number of guns in circulation, so getting those out of circulation is likely a fools errand, yes. Additionally, other countries allow the carry of gund and have much fewer such problems. What needs changing is the mentality behind it all, and for that...

 

- repeal Citizens United immediately, political lobbying by any corporation in general and the NRA in particular in this case is completely off the table

- reform the healthcare system: greater access to mental healthcare for everyone who needs it. Other forms of healthcare too, but that's the one that's important here.

- actually make efforts to address domestic poverty and inequality on a large scale, rather than abandoning entire communities to their fate and so having them turn to crime.

- and yes, regulate current sales of guns better and offer generous amnesties for ones already in circulation, but don't seek to come for them by coercion.

 

Of course, none of the above will happen because there's too many powerful people making bank from all the death and suffering in the status quo and feeding everyone else the ridiculous lie of American exceptionalism through savvy media manipulation so they don't rock the boat and keep it that way, but it's good to talk about.

In this case it appears the shooter was receiving mental health care but was still able to buy 5 guns including a semi automatic rifle.  There are no words for how stupid this is.  Fine, let people own guns if they are fit to do so.  How the hell anyone can argue they should be able to by them if they are not fit to do so.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

In this case it appears the shooter was receiving mental health care but was still able to buy 5 guns including a semi automatic rifle.  There are no words for how stupid this is.  Fine, let people own guns if they are fit to do so.  How the hell anyone can argue they should be able to by them if they are not fit to do so.

Yup, agreed. Some folks might argue that the existing legislation already covers this, but apparently it doesn't cover it well enough.

[Smudge]

48 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

In this case it appears the shooter was receiving mental health care but was still able to buy 5 guns including a semi automatic rifle.  There are no words for how stupid this is.  Fine, let people own guns if they are fit to do so.  How the hell anyone can argue they should be able to by them if they are not fit to do so.

If a gun seller has no idea that the purchaser is mentally challenged, he will make the sale. How would he know otherwise?

BTW you don't have to be a dealer to sell a gun.

Edited 29 March 2023 by Smudge

[Jon the Hat]

49 minutes ago, Smudge said:

If a gun seller has no idea that the purchaser is mentally challenged, he will make the sale. How would he know otherwise?

BTW you don't have to be a dealer to sell a gun.

No indeed, although it has been reported in this case that the 5 guns were bought in a short period in different shops.  Madness that you can do this without someone getting a flag to look into it.

[Captain...]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

The only way to even start this is to completely change the way politics is funded in the US.  While the NRA can buy political power it is impossible.

Sad but true, it's just so ingrained throughout American politics and culture it needs someone to do something big, like that Aussie fella and to hell with the consequences.

[Captain...]

3 hours ago, Smudge said:

If a gun seller has no idea that the purchaser is mentally challenged, he will make the sale. How would he know otherwise?

BTW you don't have to be a dealer to sell a gun.

That's also madness the private unregulated sale of guns. It's all just so baffling to me that it has been allowed to get to this state. Surely even the most ardent gun nut can see that you don't want mentally challenged people to have lethal weapons.

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Captain... said:

That's also madness the private unregulated sale of guns. It's all just so baffling to me that it has been allowed to get to this state. Surely even the most ardent gun nut can see that you don't want mentally challenged people to have lethal weapons.

The problem is that the most ardent gun nuts are OK with everyone having guns, because they believe in a slippery slope fallacy where stopping one set of people owning guns ends in no one having them.

 

It is a mentality issue, always has been.

[Zear0]

24 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The problem is that the most ardent gun nuts are OK with everyone having guns, because they believe in a slippery slope fallacy where stopping one set of people owning guns ends in no one having them.

 

It is a mentality issue, always has been.

Agree on the mentality aspect. I think I said this during the previous mass shooting (depressing thought), but when I lived over there they genuinely encouraged me to get a gun ASAP as "if someone knows you're not armed, they'll break into your house and kill you". That was the majority view of colleagues and neighbours I had at the time. They're completely and utterly paranoid. 

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Zear0 said:

Agree on the mentality aspect. I think I said this during the previous mass shooting (depressing thought), but when I lived over there they genuinely encouraged me to get a gun ASAP as "if someone knows you're not armed, they'll break into your house and kill you". That was the majority view of colleagues and neighbours I had at the time. They're completely and utterly paranoid. 

Quite. In many places, it is simply a roundabout of fear, which is rather sad.

[Daggers]

 

[Foxdiamond]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

 

Some of the replies wow

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Daggers said:

 

 

10 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

Some of the replies wow

...thing is, it isn't just the guns. There are other factors in play.

 

The problem is the gun nuts, NRA and the politicians they back don't want to address any of those factors either, so they're still on the wrong side even when they say the matter is "more complicated".

[Daggers]

22 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

...thing is, it isn't just the guns. There are other factors in play.

 

The problem is the gun nuts, NRA and the politicians they back don't want to address any of those factors either, so they're still on the wrong side even when they say the matter is "more complicated".

It is just the guns. 
 

No guns = no gun mass murders, because no guns

 

This makes it the guns. 
 

Other issues are just sidetracking from that simple fact. It doesn’t mean they don’t require addressing too. 
 

It’s the guns. 

[Livid]

I've really stopped commenting on School Shooting posts on Social Media.

 

People go on about the politicians and the NRA etc. but they are continuously voted into power. I can't see any real appetite for change in the US.

 

Russians who have lived under oppressive regimes of various forms for centuries and have seemingly been brainwashed and  Americans who seem to be basing their values on selective sections of the old testament and a document drawn up nearly two hundred and fifty years ago. 

 

It really is beginning to feel like Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right, Here I am stuck in the middle with you

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Daggers said:

It is just the guns. 
 

No guns = no gun mass murders, because no guns

 

This makes it the guns. 
 

Other issues are just sidetracking from that simple fact. It doesn’t mean they don’t require addressing too. 
 

It’s the guns. 

If I could magick the whole lot away, I would in a heartbeat.

 

But I'm yet to see a solution that gets them out of circulation without changing mentality or without a great deal of innocent blood on the floor, more's the pity.

[Daggers]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

If I could magick the whole lot away, I would in a heartbeat.

 

But I'm yet to see a solution that gets them out of circulation without changing mentality or without a great deal of innocent blood on the floor, more's the pity.

Oz confiscated them. 
 

Job done. 
 

 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, Daggers said:

Oz confiscated them. 
 

Job done. 
 

 

Would that really happen in the US without massacres?

 

I mean, there's massacres happening already, but even more so?