Is anyone genuinely going to boycott?

[K1FOX]

6 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

I mean I think you’re inherently wrong, but I would ask you why you think it matters?
 

You have an issue with education about homosexuality in schools. But why? You must accept that there are always going to be some homosexual people? So why not let them know from the age they might start having those feelings that they don’t need to be ashamed of them? If it’s a concern that you think that’s going to make people ‘choose’ to be gay, why is that actually a problem? Why should it matter who somebody loves and is loved by?

It’s an opinion so it doesn’t matter. 
 

Again maybe worded it wrong, the issue is the level of exposure given to young children about a lot of these matters. It isn’t just exclusive to being gay. I think you’ll agree that what was taught even a couple of years ago was a lot more conservative than what is taught now and on very many topics. It’s okay to be ‘different’ or identify differently or whatever it is but what age is it right to tell a child this? If that’s the first thing a child hears at school that may be his mind made up for life. Children’s minds are like sieves. I just feel like that’s being exploited. 

[Mark_w]

Just now, K1FOX said:

It’s an opinion so it doesn’t matter. 
 

Again maybe worded it wrong, the issue is the level of exposure given to young children about a lot of these matters. It isn’t just exclusive to being gay. I think you’ll agree that what was taught even a couple of years ago was a lot more conservative than what is taught now and on very many topics. It’s okay to be ‘different’ or identify differently or whatever it is but what age is it right to tell a child this? If that’s the first thing a child hears at school that may be his mind made up for life. Children’s minds are like sieves. I just feel like that’s being exploited. 

Of course opinions matter. We might as well not have forums, debates, anything if they didn't.

I mean it's not going to be the first thing a child hears at school is it? They're going to be told in primary schools sometimes girls love boys, sometimes girls love girls, sometimes boys love boys. The main point of reference and initial source of education for almost all children is still going to be their family structure and in mose cases that's going to be parents who are a male father and a female mother. But by teaching all of it (and we're talking about primary school, it's not going to be detailed sex education), you reaffirm to the children with same sex parents that that isn't something they need to be ashamed of or worried about. And when children start to feel whatever they feel for whoever they feel it towards, they'll know that it isn't wrong, that there are people who've gone through the same thing, that they will meet people like them.

And look I don't believe for a second that homophobic bullying has been removed from schools since I left. If anyone is going to be influenced by their school experience it's still much more likely to be homsexual children suppressing their feelings to avoid that than anything else.

Your view seems to be rooted in a view that there is something wrong about same sex relationships. That the love felt by people of the same sex is either in some way inferior, or wrong, or something to be ashamed of. I am genuinley interested in, if that's the case, what got you there? And if it's not, why you are acting like there's a difference between education people about male/female love, and male/male female/female.

[FoxesDeb]

11 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

It’s an opinion so it doesn’t matter. 
 

Again maybe worded it wrong, the issue is the level of exposure given to young children about a lot of these matters. It isn’t just exclusive to being gay. I think you’ll agree that what was taught even a couple of years ago was a lot more conservative than what is taught now and on very many topics. It’s okay to be ‘different’ or identify differently or whatever it is but what age is it right to tell a child this? If that’s the first thing a child hears at school that may be his mind made up for life. Children’s minds are like sieves. I just feel like that’s being exploited. 

This all comes back to your belief that it's a choice, though. I see it more that being able to talk freely and express our differences means that people don't have to hide those differences away in shame, as in years gone by here, and in some societies still now.

 

I'm not having it that children are hearing about being gay and thinking to themselves 'do you know what, I've now decided to be attracted to a completely different gender than I was before I knew that being gay is a thing' 

 

 

[K1FOX]

4 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

Of course opinions matter. We might as well not have forums, debates, anything if they didn't.

I mean it's not going to be the first thing a child hears at school is it? They're going to be told in primary schools sometimes girls love boys, sometimes girls love girls, sometimes boys love boys. The main point of reference and initial source of education for almost all children is still going to be their family structure and in mose cases that's going to be parents who are a male father and a female mother. But by teaching all of it (and we're talking about primary school, it's not going to be detailed sex education), you reaffirm to the children with same sex parents that that isn't something they need to be ashamed of or worried about. And when children start to feel whatever they feel for whoever they feel it towards, they'll know that it isn't wrong, that there are people who've gone through the same thing, that they will meet people like them.

And look I don't believe for a second that homophobic bullying has been removed from schools since I left. If anyone is going to be influenced by their school experience it's still much more likely to be homsexual children suppressing their feelings to avoid that than anything else.

Your view seems to be rooted in a view that there is something wrong about same sex relationships. That the love felt by people of the same sex is either in some way inferior, or wrong, or something to be ashamed of. I am genuinley interested in, if that's the case, what got you there? And if it's not, why you are acting like there's a difference between education people about male/female love, and male/male female/female.

It all pans down to whether you think it’s a choice or not. If you don’t think it’s a choice or there’s a large element of choice in it then anything I say is of no use to you.

 

My question is why do children need to be taught anything like this from such a young age. Surely it’s up to the families to give them that upbringing. Later on when they’re understanding tolerance can be taught. 
 

I’ll say again nothing wrong with it I just believe it’s a choice and it’s not a choice that should be taken out the hands of young children by the education system.

[K1FOX]

4 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

This all comes back to your belief that it's a choice, though. I see it more that being able to talk freely and express our differences means that people don't have to hide those differences away in shame, as in years gone by here, and in some societies still now.

 

I'm not having it that children are hearing about being gay and thinking to themselves 'do you know what, I've now decided to be attracted to a completely different gender than I was before I knew that being gay is a thing' 

 

 

Kids are experimental and impressionable. If it’s natural then why does it need to be forced on to them so young? Surely they’d know anyway?

[Mark_w]

Just now, K1FOX said:

It all pans down to whether you think it’s a choice or not. If you don’t think it’s a choice or there’s a large element of choice in it then anything I say is of no use to you.

 

My question is why do children need to be taught anything like this from such a young age. Surely it’s up to the families to give them that upbringing. Later on when they’re understanding tolerance can be taught. 
 

I’ll say again nothing wrong with it I just believe it’s a choice and it’s not a choice that should be taken out the hands of young children by the education system.

Do you think schools are going to exclusively teach children about homosexuality?

If you think it's a choice, you would be the one taking that choice out of the hands of young children by not teaching them that all of the available options are normal, and what they are, before they 'choose'.

[K1FOX]

2 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

Do you think schools are going to exclusively teach children about homosexuality?

If you think it's a choice, you would be the one taking that choice out of the hands of young children by not teaching them that all of the available options are normal, and what they are, before they 'choose'.

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t you say previously that they are given all the options? In which case they’re being given choices? My point is don’t give them a decision to make at that age, as they get older by all means teach tolerance. Their mum and dad at home who created them should be enough to advise them. If that’s what created them then that must be what’s natural.

[Mark_w]

4 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t you say previously that they are given all the options? In which case they’re being given choices? My point is don’t give them a decision to make at that age, as they get older by all means teach tolerance. Their mum and dad at home who created them should be enough to advise them. If that’s what created them then that must be what’s natural.

But I mean, I started feeling sexual attraction towards girls I liked at school when I was 7 (TMI complete with erections) - I don't think it was a choice but clearly you do. If this is a decision, when do you think the decision is made?

Sex between a man and a woman creating a child being natural, doesn't mean that sex between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman is unnatural. That binary view you hold is flawed.

Edited 24 November 2022 by Mark_w

[FoxesDeb]

11 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Kids are experimental and impressionable. If it’s natural then why does it need to be forced on to them so young? Surely they’d know anyway?

Read what I wrote again, specifically the first paragraph. I don't think anyone is forcing anything on anyone, but teaching tolerance and inclusion. 

[K1FOX]

3 minutes ago, Mark_w said:

But I mean, I started feeling sexual attraction towards girls I liked at school when I was 7 (TMI complete with erections) - I don't think it was a choice but clearly you do. If this is a decision, when do you think the decision is made?

Sex between a man and a woman creating a child being natural, doesn't mean that sex between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman is unnatural. That binary view you hold is flawed.

Don’t want to guess your age or anything but I’m assuming when you were in school or 7 years of age they weren’t teaching you anything or the sort. Given the education maybe you’d have made a different decision. 
 

Flawed to you maybe but not to me. Game of opinions ain’t it.

[Mark_w]

Just now, K1FOX said:

Don’t want to guess your age or anything but I’m assuming when you were in school or 7 years of age they weren’t teaching you anything or the sort. Given the education maybe you’d have made a different decision. 
 

Flawed to you maybe but not to me. Game of opinions ain’t it.

I don't think I would have made a different decision because I don't think it's an active choice anyone makes. BUT that is exactly my point. If you're right that there's a choice, then yes maybe if I'd been educated already that I could love anyone I would have chosen something different. If it was an active decision I think I'd have chosen to be pansexual because that would give the broadest possible range of people to fall in love with, have sex with, find a relationship that works for me. If you're right, and it's a choice (which again, I really strongly think it isn't) then that education system that you're suggesting should be the way it works, denied me the right to choose. How can you agree with that system unless you do in fact think anything other than being heterosexual is wrong?

[K1FOX]

3 minutes ago, FoxesDeb said:

Read what I wrote again, specifically the first paragraph. I don't think anyone is forcing anything on anyone, but teaching tolerance and inclusion. 

At the age of 5,6,7? They are being given choices to make. Man on man, woman on woman, you can be a girl even if you’re a boy, a boy if you’re a girl etc etc. I ask you again, what age is it right to give kids these options and not leave it to their parents? 
 

As I’ve mentioned above many times I agree teach tolerance but teach it when the children are of a more understanding age and not such an impressionable one.

[K1FOX]

1 minute ago, Mark_w said:

I don't think I would have made a different decision because I don't think it's an active choice anyone makes. BUT that is exactly my point. If you're right that there's a choice, then yes maybe if I'd been educated already that I could love anyone I would have chosen something different. If it was an active decision I think I'd have chosen to be pansexual because that would give the broadest possible range of people to fall in love with, have sex with, find a relationship that works for me. If you're right, and it's a choice (which again, I really strongly think it isn't) then that education system that you're suggesting should be the way it works, denied me the right to choose. How can you agree with that system unless you do in fact think anything other than being heterosexual is wrong?

The point is if it’s natural then why does it need be taught to children so young? Teach tolerance, teach respect of all people.
 

Don’t need to start making he’s into they’s and cartoon characters gender neutral at such a young age. If you’re gay then you’re gay anyway right? If you identify as a man but are a young girl you’re going to do it anyway right? Why do you need to be given options if it isn’t a choice?

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, K1FOX said:

The point is if it’s natural then why does it need be taught to children so young? Teach tolerance, teach respect of all people.
 

Don’t need to start making he’s into they’s and cartoon characters gender neutral at such a young age. If you’re gay then you’re gay anyway right? If you identify as a man but are a young girl you’re going to do it anyway right? Why do you need to be given options if it isn’t a choice?

To avoid prejudice taking root at the most impressionable of ages, perhaps.

[Mark_w]

5 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

The point is if it’s natural then why does it need be taught to children so young? Teach tolerance, teach respect of all people.
 

Don’t need to start making he’s into they’s and cartoon characters gender neutral at such a young age. If you’re gay then you’re gay anyway right? If you identify as a man but are a young girl you’re going to do it anyway right? Why do you need to be given options if it isn’t a choice?

It's not actually about giving people options though. I'm talking about that to entertain your idea that it's an active choice. But it's mainly about educating people that what they feel is ok and that they shouldn't be judged for it.

But when you say 'If you’re gay then you’re gay anyway right?' that's not what you believe. You believe it's a choice, and some children genuinley might not know the options available to them before they're 'choosing' if their parents haven't taught them that and the schools don't. Whether it's a decision people make (it's not), something you formulate at a young age, or something you're born with, you need to know about it before you start feeling those things so that you know what you're experiencing, and don't feel distressed about feeling something that you've never been taught is a normal thing to feel.

I need to stop going round in circles now and do something productive, but I really do think your opposition to teaching it in schools comes from a place of fear of something that you really don't need to be afraid of.

Edited 24 November 2022 by Mark_w

[FoxesDeb]

7 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

At the age of 5,6,7? They are being given choices to make. Man on man, woman on woman, you can be a girl even if you’re a boy, a boy if you’re a girl etc etc. I ask you again, what age is it right to give kids these options and not leave it to their parents? 
 

As I’ve mentioned above many times I agree teach tolerance but teach it when the children are of a more understanding age and not such an impressionable one.

Again though, you're talking about choice, as if people can choose who they are attracted to. When did you decide you were straight? I never decided, it is just who I am. You can't start teaching tolerance and inclusion too young imo, don't we teach children manners, and sharing, and respect from their tiny years? It's all part of the same thing. Nobody is choosing their sexuality, and nobody is choosing who they are attracted to. Unless maybe they are going against their natural instincts, which would be sad, and even more reason to talk to children about it from a very young age.

 

The idea that people choose who they are attracted to is quite frankly ludicrous. 

[Dahnsouff]

This thread has diverged from its intent I would suggest…

[K1FOX]

6 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

To avoid prejudice taking root at the most impressionable of ages, perhaps.

Or by making children who are so impressionable at that age make decisions they don’t need to make.

 

I just feel it’s the parents job at that young age and nobody else’s.

[FoxesDeb]

1 minute ago, Dahnsouff said:

This thread has diverged from its intent I would suggest…

D'ya think  

 

Everyone is playing nicely, though 

 

[Manley Farrington-Brown]

1 minute ago, Mark_w said:

I really do think your opposition to teaching it in schools comes from a place of fear of something that you really don't need to be afraid of.

This is the root of it, as well an excellent and empathetic point.

 

8 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Don’t need to start making he’s into they’s and cartoon characters gender neutral at such a young age. If you’re gay then you’re gay anyway right? If you identify as a man but are a young girl you’re going to do it anyway right? Why do you need to be given options if it isn’t a choice?

Similarly though, and by the same logic, where's the harm? If someone isn't gay, they're not going to be made gay by a cartoon character not having a specified gender.

 

10 minutes ago, K1FOX said:

Teach tolerance, teach respect of all people

This is all that anybody is being taught, and all that anyone wants to teach anybody.

[HighPeakFox]

1 minute ago, K1FOX said:

Or by making children who are so impressionable at that age make decisions they don’t need to make.

 

I just feel it’s the parents job at that young age and nobody else’s.

The things that makes children make decisions they don't need to make are false information, prejudice, fear, coercion, abuse and so forth. Not well-rounded education about the years ahead.

[Dahnsouff]

1 minute ago, FoxesDeb said:

D'ya think  

 

Everyone is playing nicely, though 

 

Pretty much, but there seems less tolerance for some viewpoints than others though….

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, HighPeakFox said:

The things that makes children make decisions they don't need to make are false information, prejudice, fear, coercion, abuse and so forth. Not well-rounded education about the years ahead.

Stop turning children into small adults

[HighPeakFox]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Stop turning children into small adults

Who is doing that?

[Dahnsouff]

Just now, HighPeakFox said:

Who is doing that?

You are 100%