Climate Change - a poll

[grobyfox1990]

8 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Said it before but it merits repeating in light of the rhetoric currently being bandied about:

 

If the UK (and other places) are going on about "stopping the boats" now, what's it going to be like if things continue as they are and in a couple of decades there are a few hundred million people in those boats (and whatever other form of transport), due to their homes becoming simply uninhabitable?

Would be delighted if it's as long as a couple of decades away and not much sooner. Climate migration has already started, see: https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/tuvalu/australia-tuvalu-falepili-union-treaty

 

And is being discussed widely and globally.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Would be delighted if it's as long as a couple of decades away and not much sooner. Climate migration has already started, see: https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/tuvalu/australia-tuvalu-falepili-union-treaty

 

And is being discussed widely and globally.

Yeah, it's accelerating in a pretty scary fashion.

 

Here's hoping the discussion actually includes meaningful action, because this is just the beginning.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67473829

 

Interesting look at public attitude towards climate change and how people are looking at it right now.

[Guest Sideshow Faes]

20 hours ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Oh yeh fully agreed leaders aren’t doing ENOUGH right now. But the rhetoric needs to change away from taking climate risk seriously being the ‘right thing to do as a human’ to being the ‘right thing to do to save you a buttload of cash’ As let’s be honest, people relate to that more. And it’s true! Climate risk is costing us all money now! The amount of freaks I speak to who spend every summer in some tinpot village in Italy ‘Oooh so nice the food wowzers!!’ Well you can’t do that anymore unless you can cope with 47 degrees. Your summer holiday to lie on a beach reading a book is gonna cost a lot more 

The right thing to do so humanity survives the century in a meaningful way might be about right.

[HighPeakFox]

People risking their lives in boats, much like people living rough and / or in tents, are making a lifestyle choice, don't you know...? 

 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67483064

 

An example of just how important messaging and misinformation about this topic can be.

[SpacedX]

It's "just nature" though. 52 people on a provincial football forum told me so. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, SpacedX said:

It's "just nature" though. 52 people on a provincial football forum told me so. 

... and 16 people don't think it's happening at all.

 

Here's hoping at least the majority of those are pisstakers.

[ozleicester]

On 22/11/2023 at 23:03, leicsmac said:

Said it before but it merits repeating in light of the rhetoric currently being bandied about:

 

If the UK (and other places) are going on about "stopping the boats" now, what's it going to be like if things continue as they are and in a couple of decades there are a few hundred million people in those boats (and whatever other form of transport), due to their homes becoming simply uninhabitable?

Australia will offer permanent residency to Tuvalu’s population of 11,200 under a world-first resettlement agreement for “climate refugees” displaced by global warming as part of a far-reaching treaty with the tiny Pacific nation.
 

Under the deal, Australia will offer Tuvalu a security guarantee giving Canberra the right to veto any attempts by other countries to strike a security agreement with the island state, nullifying the risk of another Solomon Islands-style pact with Beijing that sent shockwaves throughout the Pacific.

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, ozleicester said:

Australia will offer permanent residency to Tuvalu’s population of 11,200 under a world-first resettlement agreement for “climate refugees” displaced by global warming as part of a far-reaching treaty with the tiny Pacific nation.
 

Under the deal, Australia will offer Tuvalu a security guarantee giving Canberra the right to veto any attempts by other countries to strike a security agreement with the island state, nullifying the risk of another Solomon Islands-style pact with Beijing that sent shockwaves throughout the Pacific.

Yeh that is what I posted above - https://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/tuvalu/australia-tuvalu-falepili-union-treaty

 

Climate migration, and more direct climate compensation will soon be hitting central balance sheets. 

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67508331

 

The United Arab Emirates planned to use its role as the host of UN climate talks as an opportunity to strike oil and gas deals, the BBC has learned.

Leaked briefing documents reveal plans to discuss fossil fuel deals with 15 nations.

The UN body responsible for the COP28 summit told the BBC hosts were expected to act without bias or self-interest.

The UAE team did not deny using COP28 meetings for business talks, and said "private meetings are private".

It declined to comment on what was discussed in the meetings and said its work has been focused on "meaningful climate action".

 

Disappointing, but not exactly surprising.

[jgtuk]

https://www.desmog.com/2023/11/23/revealed-scale-of-the-telegraphs-climate-change-propaganda/
 

 

The power of the media is frightening. 
 

Edit: I should mention Tufton St is a driving force behind this. 

Edited 27 November 2023 by jgtuk

[westernpark]

2 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

https://www.desmog.com/2023/11/23/revealed-scale-of-the-telegraphs-climate-change-propaganda/
 

 

The power of the media is frightening. 

It will only get worse if a change of ownership goes through.

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, jgtuk said:

https://www.desmog.com/2023/11/23/revealed-scale-of-the-telegraphs-climate-change-propaganda/
 

 

The power of the media is frightening. 
 

Edit: I should mention Tufton St is a driving force behind this. 

I've said this before, but I honestly don't get the stance of these folks towards this matter.

 

They know that they are ignoring clear, obvious and consequential scientific consensus, on something as obvious as the force of gravity, and most of them are of the age where there is still enough time for the consequences of this ignorance and power-mongering to pivot directly upon them. Are they really so disinterested about their own future, to say nothing of other people? Or do they think that somehow the consequences will not pivot upon them, that the money and influence they have now will buy enough protection to see things through in the style they are accustomed to, no matter what happens, until they die?

 

Either way, it's utterly abhorrent and should things go horribly sideways, there will be a reckoning for them.

[Dunge]

13 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I've said this before, but I honestly don't get the stance of these folks towards this matter.

 

They know that they are ignoring clear, obvious and consequential scientific consensus, on something as obvious as the force of gravity, and most of them are of the age where there is still enough time for the consequences of this ignorance and power-mongering to pivot directly upon them. Are they really so disinterested about their own future, to say nothing of other people? Or do they think that somehow the consequences will not pivot upon them, that the money and influence they have now will buy enough protection to see things through in the style they are accustomed to, no matter what happens, until they die?

 

Either way, it's utterly abhorrent and should things go horribly sideways, there will be a reckoning for them.

I think you give these people too much credit, and that they just figure they’ll cross that bridge when they get to it.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I think you give these people too much credit, and that they just figure they’ll cross that bridge when they get to it.

If that's true - and it's definitely plausible - then I am giving them too much credit, yeah. Guess they're only human too, after all.

 

In any case, such short-sighted self-interest is going to get punished, one way or another.

[grobyfox1990]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-67508331

 

The United Arab Emirates planned to use its role as the host of UN climate talks as an opportunity to strike oil and gas deals, the BBC has learned.

Leaked briefing documents reveal plans to discuss fossil fuel deals with 15 nations.

The UN body responsible for the COP28 summit told the BBC hosts were expected to act without bias or self-interest.

The UAE team did not deny using COP28 meetings for business talks, and said "private meetings are private".

It declined to comment on what was discussed in the meetings and said its work has been focused on "meaningful climate action".

 

Disappointing, but not exactly surprising.

Once again great work from the media, fantastic headline to further stoke up the Middle East hatred rhetoric, with scant detail. What are the discussions about, could they touch on the new sustainable improves tag? Alignment with the SDR/SFDR II? The work oil majors have to do to transition? The transition framework laid out in the TPT which is being rolled out globally?

Instead, let's stick to 'Middle East = bad' and make the people ANGRY at our new enemy.

[leicsmac]

17 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Once again great work from the media, fantastic headline to further stoke up the Middle East hatred rhetoric, with scant detail. What are the discussions about, could they touch on the new sustainable improves tag? Alignment with the SDR/SFDR II? The work oil majors have to do to transition? The transition framework laid out in the TPT which is being rolled out globally?

Instead, let's stick to 'Middle East = bad' and make the people ANGRY at our new enemy.

If this were true, then they could simply come clean with it and explain themselves (because it would be a very legit explanation) rather than going on about private discussions like the kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

 

No need for the cloak and dagger stuff when you know you're doing stuff that actually benefits the future and which most people will approve of.

[grobyfox1990]

6 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

If this were true, then they could simply come clean with it and explain themselves (because it would be a very legit explanation) rather than going on about private discussions like the kid caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

 

No need for the cloak and dagger stuff when you know you're doing stuff that actually benefits the future and which most people will approve of.

There is absolutely a need for cloak and dagger. The renewable energy transition is one of the most competitive races we've seen in business, ever, and is only going to get more so once more players enter the game. This is how business runs, you don't give away your market secrets to make you look good in front of Western media who hold you up as the new bogeyman anyway.

Having a group of ignorant placard-wavers in Slough approve of you means nothing, money in the bank and positioning yourself as the global leader does.

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

There is absolutely a need for cloak and dagger. The renewable energy transition is one of the most competitive races we've seen in business, ever, and is only going to get more so once more players enter the game. This is how business runs, you don't give away your market secrets to make you look good in front of Western media who hold you up as the new bogeyman anyway.

Having a group of ignorant placard-wavers in Slough approve of you means nothing, money in the bank and positioning yourself as the global leader does.

Yeah, that's how the game is played.

 

It's just puerile, ridiculous and contemptible in this particular field and there is no reason to think that free market "competition" is going to spare human civilisation from the worst here - only unified collaborative action will, if it comes about.

 

If I see actual tangible big results from the methodologies being currently used (eg. net zero carbon emission targets being met and a commensurate slowing and stopping of global average temperature increase, or even just a vague sign of the above), then I'd change my mind.

[grobyfox1990]

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, that's how the game is played.

 

It's just puerile, ridiculous and contemptible in this particular field and there is no reason to think that free market "competition" is going to spare human civilisation from the worst here - only unified collaborative action will, if it comes about.

 

If I see actual tangible big results from the methodologies being currently used (eg. net zero carbon emission targets being met and a commensurate slowing and stopping of global average temperature increase, or even just a vague sign of the above), then I'd change my mind.

But, it can. Making money and saving humanity don't have to be mutually exclusive. if every big player in the game wants to lead the transition, that will drive standards higher and quicker to achieve a better result for everyone. 

Net zero targets run to 2050 at the latest and almost every listed has a transition plan, what evidence do you see for them not being met, and by whom? That is a libelous statement lol. 

Anyway, my main point is we have no idea what Abu Dhabi's negotiations are about and there is no point fueling more hatred and division via targeted media headlines. If COP ends with no end result, get angry then.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

But, it can. Making money and saving humanity don't have to be mutually exclusive. if every big player in the game wants to lead the transition, that will drive standards higher and quicker to achieve a better result for everyone. 

 

That's the ideal, but is there any evidence of it working in terms of tangible results at this time?

 

11 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

 

Net zero targets run to 2050 at the latest and almost every listed has a transition plan, what evidence do you see for them not being met, and by whom? That is a libelous statement lol.

This current behaviour regarding continued use of oil and gas (provided it is what it looks like) would suggest that the above plans are, at least, "open to interpretation". Pardon my lack of faith when leading actors act like this.

 

14 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Anyway, my main point is we have no idea what Abu Dhabi's negotiations are about and there is no point fueling more hatred and division via targeted media headlines. If COP ends with no end result, get angry then.

Fair to say, I'm going by Occam's Razor here, but it's possible that the ME actors are engaged in some kind of backroom deal regarding cleaner energy that no one can know about right now.

 

NB. I just wish I had more faith in such market-driven solutions as you clearly do, I just don't think they look long enough or deep enough for a problem of this magnitude and I really could do with compelling evidence to prove otherwise,  but I guess that's not really possible until the job is done and such results spring from it.

[grobyfox1990]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That's the ideal, but is there any evidence of it working in terms of tangible results at this time?

 

This current behaviour regarding continued use of oil and gas (provided it is what it looks like) would suggest that the above plans are, at least, "open to interpretation". Pardon my lack of faith when leading actors act like this.

 

Fair to say, I'm going by Occam's Razor here, but it's possible that the ME actors are engaged in some kind of backroom deal regarding cleaner energy that no one can know about right now.

 

NB. I just wish I had more faith in such market-driven solutions as you clearly do, I just don't think they look long enough or deep enough for a problem of this magnitude and I really could do with compelling evidence to prove otherwise,  but I guess that's not really possible until the job is done and such results spring from it.

1. Yes, Bloomberg HQ London, they have driven standards to a new level.

2. That's not evidence, that's opinion. As I said, almost every listed has a transition plan towards net zero, you are saying there is no tangible evidence they are being met. I'll ask again - What evidence do you see for this, and by whom? 

3. It's possible, but not certain. And as we are talking about 'being a good human' here, why would we whip up media-driven hate when we don't have any of the facts?

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, grobyfox1990 said:

1. Yes, Bloomberg HQ London, they have driven standards to a new level.

2. That's not evidence, that's opinion. As I said, almost every listed has a transition plan towards net zero, you are saying there is no tangible evidence they are being met. I'll ask again - What evidence do you see for this, and by whom? 

3. It's possible, but not certain. And as we are talking about 'being a good human' here, why would we whip up media-driven hate when we don't have any of the facts?

1. Fair enough. Perhaps I'm expecting too much when these new standards aren't actually causing a noticeable shift in carbon emissions and global average temperature yet.

 

2. I'm going by what the BBC uncovered. It's not direct evidence on its own, but then equally the opposite is also true and so I'm making, yes, an opinionated logical progression about the intention of the parties in this case that I think it likely given history of such behaviours but could be wrong. Apologies if that wasn't clear already.

 

3. Speaking personally, I think the report was pretty even handed and remarked (at least mostly) on the factual contents of the reports they uncovered.

[grobyfox1990]

18 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

1. Fair enough. Perhaps I'm expecting too much when these new standards aren't actually causing a noticeable shift in carbon emissions and global average temperature yet.

 

2. I'm going by what the BBC uncovered. It's not direct evidence on its own, but then equally the opposite is also true and so I'm making, yes, an opinionated logical progression about the intention of the parties in this case that I think it likely given history of such behaviours but could be wrong. Apologies if that wasn't clear already.

 

3. Speaking personally, I think the report was pretty even handed and remarked (at least mostly) on the factual contents of the reports they uncovered.

1. Global solutions are not achieved overnight, although in this case they need to be given the suffering already happening.

2. I understand what you are saying but that is not my point. As stated, almost every listed has a transition plan. if you don't believe in it, I'll ask again, tell me by whom and why. Because that info should be leading your fact-based opinion. Much like covid, we are not in an opinions arena here, you can't just say 'nah don't believe in covid mate because we always stuff things like this up and I read something in the Daily Star about it' much like you can't just say the transition is not working without direct evidence and going on a BBC article.

3. Yeh fair, personally I read it as more fuel to the fire to whip up rage against those eViL sCaRy OMG Arab people who are coming for your sport, your human rights and now your climate!!!! But, this is an opinions arena.