Climate Change - a poll

[Daggers]

 

[WigstonWanderer]

11 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

What would you have Australia do that would make a difference?  IMO Albo is taking a pragmatic approach.  No point turning off Australian Coal when the alternative is the Chinese bunring lower quality coal emitting higher emissions and mined in more dangerous conditions elsewhere.  Admitedly it is insane that while most of the world is moving towards more efficient cars Australia sees Ford start importing the F150, but numbers are tiny really.

My point is that they boxed themselves in with an exceptionally timid election campaign on the back of getting their arses kicked in 2013 after a genuine attempt at getting some climate friendly policies through parliament by the last Labor government (yes, that is how they spell it ).

 

As for what I’d like to see them doing:

 

- They really need to accept that no new coal mines and gas fields should be opened. Very poor excuse to say others will fill the void. Australia is a major exporter of both. The fact is the carbon needs to stay in the ground if we’re to have any chance to avoid future catastrophes.

 

- They should be implementing a general super profits tax and use the money to sort out the housing crisis as recently proposed by a group of economists. Super profits are the result of a market failure/lack of competition and it is the duty of governments to sort these things out.

 

- They should wind back the phase 3 tax cuts or at the very least claw back an equivalent amount from the higher bracket to balance the books, and ideally ensure that people in the higher bracket don’t benefit. If money is available there’s plenty of other worthy causes from environmental issues, to infrastructure and health.

 

- They should accept that carbon offsets just don’t work. I suspect that many are just scams. In any case, they are not used to actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but rather to justify higher emissions and fossil fuel extraction.

 

-They should look to clean up methane leakage from gas producers. I believe satellite data shows this to be a much greater issue than admitted.

 

Talking of market failures, failure to protect the environment is actually another. A “free” resource for every polluter to exploit without consequence.

 

Edit also:

- Introduce vehicle emission standards to encourage manufacturers to import EVs. I’m really not sure why this is even controversial. The Australian car industry has already gone so what market are we protecting?

 

- Ruthlessly remove anything that smacks of a fossil fuel subsidy in the Federal budget.

Edited 30 July 2023 by WigstonWanderer

[leicsmac]

53 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

My point is that they boxed themselves in with an exceptionally timid election campaign on the back of getting their arses kicked in 2013 after a genuine attempt at getting some climate friendly policies through parliament by the last Labor government (yes, that is how they spell it ).

 

As for what I’d like to see them doing:

 

- They really need to accept that no new coal mines and gas fields should be opened. Very poor excuse to say others will fill the void. Australia is a major exporter of both. The fact is the carbon needs to stay in the ground if we’re to have any chance to avoid future catastrophes.

 

- They should be implementing a general super profits tax and use the money to sort out the housing crisis as recently proposed by a group of economists. Super profits are the result of a market failure/lack of competition and it is the duty of governments to sort these things out.

 

- They should wind back the phase 3 tax cuts or at the very least claw back an equivalent amount from the higher bracket to balance the books, and ideally ensure that people in the higher bracket don’t benefit. If money is available there’s plenty of other worthy causes from environmental issues, to infrastructure and health.

 

- They should accept that carbon offsets just don’t work. I suspect that many are just scams. In any case, they are not used to actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but rather to justify higher emissions and fossil fuel extraction.

 

-They should look to clean up methane leakage from gas producers. I believe satellite data shows this to be a much greater issue than admitted.

 

Talking of market failures, failure to protect the environment is actually another. A “free” resource for every polluter to exploit without consequence.

Oh, there will be consequences. Don't worry about that. The Earth isn't shy or squeamish about reestablishing an equilibrium, nor about how many living things die during the process.

 

But yes, the "free rider" and "tragedy of the commons" issues regarding environmental exploitation is something the market has clearly not succeeded at, and unless our species is keen on the Earth reestablishing the aforementioned equilibrium, we might want to come up with a solution for that and apply it. Rapidly.

Edited 30 July 2023 by leicsmac

[Jon the Hat]

8 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

My point is that they boxed themselves in with an exceptionally timid election campaign on the back of getting their arses kicked in 2013 after a genuine attempt at getting some climate friendly policies through parliament by the last Labor government (yes, that is how they spell it ).

 

As for what I’d like to see them doing:

 

- They really need to accept that no new coal mines and gas fields should be opened. Very poor excuse to say others will fill the void. Australia is a major exporter of both. The fact is the carbon needs to stay in the ground if we’re to have any chance to avoid future catastrophes.

 

- They should be implementing a general super profits tax and use the money to sort out the housing crisis as recently proposed by a group of economists. Super profits are the result of a market failure/lack of competition and it is the duty of governments to sort these things out.

 

- They should wind back the phase 3 tax cuts or at the very least claw back an equivalent amount from the higher bracket to balance the books, and ideally ensure that people in the higher bracket don’t benefit. If money is available there’s plenty of other worthy causes from environmental issues, to infrastructure and health.

 

- They should accept that carbon offsets just don’t work. I suspect that many are just scams. In any case, they are not used to actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions, but rather to justify higher emissions and fossil fuel extraction.

 

-They should look to clean up methane leakage from gas producers. I believe satellite data shows this to be a much greater issue than admitted.

 

Talking of market failures, failure to protect the environment is actually another. A “free” resource for every polluter to exploit without consequence.

 

Edit also:

- Introduce vehicle emission standards to encourage manufacturers to import EVs. I’m really not sure why this is even controversial. The Australian car industry has already gone so what market are we protecting?

 

- Ruthlessly remove anything that smacks of a fossil fuel subsidy in the Federal budget.

They needed to get in first, so I have some sympathy for not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot again, even if that means committing to the tax cuts.  Completely agree on the emission standards and mining taxes in particular.  It does my head in that so much wealth from the land "belongs" to about 4 people.  How can that be right?  Its mad.  Particularly galling when several of them are in court arguing about it.  Australia needs a huge shift in housing culture to grow to 50+M population that is for sure, incentives for building up not out would be good!  

 

I don't agree though on the gas and coal.  I think if you try to stop it overnight you have the opposite effect.  I have looked at this quite a lot, as my company continues to provide equipment to the coal industry.  It is a tricky thing, but on balance if we don't the Chinese will, and they kit is not as efficient or safe.  It is a known fact that Australia coal is high quality.  I look forward to the day when nobody wants it, but while it is needed for smelting in particular I believe Australia should continue to make it.  Whether New or existing licenses make little difference - New mine sites offer the opportunity to produce in a more modern and efficient way generally.

 

What I would agree is that Australia should commit to shifting away for coal power generation as soon as possible.  If they need to compensate Chinese investors to make this happen so be it.  It is madness that you drive your Tesla and 50+% of the energy is coming from coal power.

 

[WigstonWanderer]

53 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

They needed to get in first, so I have some sympathy for not wanting to shoot themselves in the foot again, even if that means committing to the tax cuts.  Completely agree on the emission standards and mining taxes in particular.  It does my head in that so much wealth from the land "belongs" to about 4 people.  How can that be right?  Its mad.  Particularly galling when several of them are in court arguing about it.  Australia needs a huge shift in housing culture to grow to 50+M population that is for sure, incentives for building up not out would be good!  

 

I don't agree though on the gas and coal.  I think if you try to stop it overnight you have the opposite effect.  I have looked at this quite a lot, as my company continues to provide equipment to the coal industry.  It is a tricky thing, but on balance if we don't the Chinese will, and they kit is not as efficient or safe.  It is a known fact that Australia coal is high quality.  I look forward to the day when nobody wants it, but while it is needed for smelting in particular I believe Australia should continue to make it.  Whether New or existing licenses make little difference - New mine sites offer the opportunity to produce in a more modern and efficient way generally.

 

What I would agree is that Australia should commit to shifting away for coal power generation as soon as possible.  If they need to compensate Chinese investors to make this happen so be it.  It is madness that you drive your Tesla and 50+% of the energy is coming from coal power.

 

I’m not suggesting stopping coal and gas production overnight, just no new production/exploration. This government seem to be quite content to allow every bit of coal and gas down there to be mined or fracked, and this is simply inconsistent with what we’re being told by climate scientists is needed. As a major player in this area Australia has a moral duty to take a lead. If everyone simply points to others who may fill the void, it will simply be business as usual.

 

If Australia, the US and Canada announced a ban on new fossil fuel production, the effect would be a gradual increase in world prices which would make alternative energy sources more competitive. This would accelerate the transition. Not suggesting this is likely to happen any time soon.

 

I agree that Labor had to get elected first in order to be able to do anything at all. I was replying to @leicsmac who made a point about blame for the lack of action being attributable in part to people going along with climate denier disinformation. I was agreeing and giving an example of the consequences in Australia, when the electorate swallowed Tony Abbott’s nonsense in 2013 and the result was a 9 year halt to any progress on climate action, and a much more timid Labor manifesto in the recent election.

 

Even so, I think Labor should have been bolder. If they’d read the room I think they would have realised that attitudes had changed and that there was/is a much greater readiness and expectation that change is required.

 

I don’t claim to have all the answers, but business as usual is simply not an option.

Edited 31 July 2023 by WigstonWanderer

[gerblod]

On 22/07/2023 at 12:13, Lionator said:

There is no such thing as a free thinking identity. We can all be a free thinker who can critically analyse something but it’s just an identity that has led to the uprising of idiots like Matt LeTissier who call themselves free thinkers but are actually just conforming to an alternative warped view of the world. 
 

The only way that change will truly happen is the overwhelming rejection of Reaganomics/Ultra Capitalism which has gripped the world since the 1980’s, or perhaps more extremely, since the Industrial Revolution. However, rejection of that gets you called a communist. We are so entrenched in it that it’s irreversible and climate breakdown is the consequence. Even modern liberals are obsessed with the ‘markets’. Like wtf???

Most rebels are content with leaving it at that - mostly it's an unconscious swipe at childhoods where they were ignored or repressed.

Those who progress into real adulthood begin to assess the facts objectively

It amazes me when politicians stand up and deny or lie about situations most of us see the reality of.

As for the eighties and ultra capitalism, this s**t began with the 1st WW and progressed through the 2nd, the Korean and Vietnam wars. When one considers the pollution and environmental damage caused by years of the use of war matériel since 1914 and those capitalists who creamed off billions supplying these insane conflicts - that's where global warming was initiated or exponentially increased.

[reporterpenguin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66354478
The rhetoric from the government recently has been quite concerning IMO, let alone the actions like handing out more oil and gas licenses. 
 

It seems to me that Rishi is almost trying to bring climate policy into culture war territory, things like the ULEZ debate (started by BoJo) are being turned into political footballs.
 

It’s bizarre, especially at a time when a lot of Europe is literally on fire and the planet is seeing records tumble by the day. 

[Zear0]

58 minutes ago, reporterpenguin said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66354478
The rhetoric from the government recently has been quite concerning IMO, let alone the actions like handing out more oil and gas licenses. 
 

It seems to me that Rishi is almost trying to bring climate policy into culture war territory, things like the ULEZ debate (started by BoJo) are being turned into political footballs.
 

It’s bizarre, especially at a time when a lot of Europe is literally on fire and the planet is seeing records tumble by the day. 

There's no "almost" about it.

[iniesta]

Interesting thoughts from the dark lord about this, surprised it hasn’t been mentioned… https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/27/spare-public-huge-burden-of-net-zero-says-tony-blair/

[Grebfromgrebland]

The corruption knows no bounds as does the lack of ethics.

 

 

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, reporterpenguin said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66354478
The rhetoric from the government recently has been quite concerning IMO, let alone the actions like handing out more oil and gas licenses. 
 

It seems to me that Rishi is almost trying to bring climate policy into culture war territory, things like the ULEZ debate (started by BoJo) are being turned into political footballs.
 

It’s bizarre, especially at a time when a lot of Europe is literally on fire and the planet is seeing records tumble by the day. 

The sickening thing is that these politicians will sail off into their corporate hedge fund jobs as soon as they’re finished. 
 

They’re kicking the can down the road, which will only cause more damage, all for a few extra votes. Truly pathetic humans. 

[Wymsey]

What will it take to get individuals to take climate change seriously and businesses to create more environmentally-friendly products and services?

[Monk]

20 minutes ago, Wymsey said:

What will it take to get individuals to take climate change seriously and businesses to create more environmentally-friendly products and services?

It will take a major catastrophic disaster for the UK to change track. You’d have to have a region run out of water, or be under water. Food shortages or crop failures, or more natural gas shortages in the winter. 
 

Some polar bears dying a few thousand miles away won’t do it. 
 

Even then the Daily Mail will still triumph Rishi’s dirty deals. 
 

The pace with which the climate is changing right now that might only be a couple of years away. A few bad seasons of some people dying from cold, floods etc  could change it here. 
 

or you could have more severe disasters around the world. 
 

but it will take a lot of people dying from the climate change for people to wake up and demand change. 

[Lionator]

2 minutes ago, Monk said:

It will take a major catastrophic disaster for the UK to change track. You’d have to have a region run out of water, or be under water. Food shortages or crop failures, or more natural gas shortages in the winter. 
 

Some polar bears dying a few thousand miles away won’t do it. 
 

Even then the Daily Mail will still triumph Rishi’s dirty deals. 
 

The pace with which the climate is changing right now that might only be a couple of years away. A few bad seasons of some people dying from cold, floods etc  could change it here. 
 

or you could have more severe disasters around the world. 
 

but it will take a lot of people dying from the climate change for people to wake up and demand change. 

We had a once in a century pandemic and a tonne of the population thought it was just a cold, while another bunch think it was some kinda conspiracy. We literally have no chance. 

[ian__marshall]

30 minutes ago, Monk said:

It will take a major catastrophic disaster for the UK to change track. You’d have to have a region run out of water, or be under water. Food shortages or crop failures, or more natural gas shortages in the winter. 
 

Some polar bears dying a few thousand miles away won’t do it. 
 

Even then the Daily Mail will still triumph Rishi’s dirty deals. 
 

The pace with which the climate is changing right now that might only be a couple of years away. A few bad seasons of some people dying from cold, floods etc  could change it here. 
 

or you could have more severe disasters around the world. 
 

but it will take a lot of people dying from the climate change for people to wake up and demand change. 

I genuinely think it'll take a lot more than the scenarios you've outlined. We've become a nation of self centered t***s. Even if half the country was 10ft underwater the majority of those unaffected wouldn't give a damn and would carry on as normal completely oblivious to the fact that it could well be them next. 

 

This latest decision by the government is an absolute shocker. I completely understand the need to firm up energy security and be less reliant upon Gas from abroad but surely investment in renewable technologies and more importantly the capability to store harvested energy long term should be the way forward. Not only would it drive innovation and create jobs in the process but it'd obviously help reduce our carbon footprint and create technologies/industries that can be exported thereby boosting the economy downstream. 

 

I appreciate from Rishi's perspective there's little value to him and his party in the long term outlook as he has his own agenda, but this decision very much feels like an unnecessary step backwards. 

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, Zear0 said:

There's no "almost" about it.

Right, and not only is is malicious, it's also stupid - do these people really believe that the consequences of doing not enough will spare them and them alone, simply because they have money? That's naive and an underestimation of what they're dealing with in the extreme.

 

6 hours ago, iniesta said:

Interesting thoughts from the dark lord about this, surprised it hasn’t been mentioned… https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/07/27/spare-public-huge-burden-of-net-zero-says-tony-blair/

Of course it would be nice if the public didn't have to pay for net zero - or at least the poorer public, anyhow. That changes nothing about the necessity of the changes and the consequences if they are not applied. It baffles me how a lot of people still don't seem to get that, either unintentionally or intentionally.

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, Monk said:

It will take a major catastrophic disaster for the UK to change track. You’d have to have a region run out of water, or be under water. Food shortages or crop failures, or more natural gas shortages in the winter. 
 

Some polar bears dying a few thousand miles away won’t do it. 
 

Even then the Daily Mail will still triumph Rishi’s dirty deals. 
 

The pace with which the climate is changing right now that might only be a couple of years away. A few bad seasons of some people dying from cold, floods etc  could change it here. 
 

or you could have more severe disasters around the world. 
 

but it will take a lot of people dying from the climate change for people to wake up and demand change. 

 

3 hours ago, Lionator said:

We had a once in a century pandemic and a tonne of the population thought it was just a cold, while another bunch think it was some kinda conspiracy. We literally have no chance. 

 

3 hours ago, ian__marshall said:

I genuinely think it'll take a lot more than the scenarios you've outlined. We've become a nation of self centered t***s. Even if half the country was 10ft underwater the majority of those unaffected wouldn't give a damn and would carry on as normal completely oblivious to the fact that it could well be them next. 

 

This latest decision by the government is an absolute shocker. I completely understand the need to firm up energy security and be less reliant upon Gas from abroad but surely investment in renewable technologies and more importantly the capability to store harvested energy long term should be the way forward. Not only would it drive innovation and create jobs in the process but it'd obviously help reduce our carbon footprint and create technologies/industries that can be exported thereby boosting the economy downstream. 

 

I appreciate from Rishi's perspective there's little value to him and his party in the long term outlook as he has his own agenda, but this decision very much feels like an unnecessary step backwards. 

Sadly I can offer no current evidence to the contrary regarding our apathy. And by the time enough people are affected for the necessary level of action to be taken, it will be too late to stop some pretty nasty outcomes.

 

I really hope that isn't the case though and we still do have time - or, if the really bad stuff does occur, that those responsible - both the malicious and apathetic - are held accountable afterwards for the unnecessary death and suffering they will be responsible for.

[fox_up_north]

I think it's easy to fall into the negative pessimism spiral but think about how much public anger there is that Boris Johnson held parties. Plenty of people followed the rules and that made a difference.

 

There will always be people who deny major events and facts - the earth is flat, we never landed on the moon, the holocaust didn't happen. But as long as a good chunk of people put in effort, it will improve. 

 

Your equivalence would be if nobody bothered during covid. We also have to remember that plenty of other countries put in MORE effort than us. 

[leicsmac]

44 minutes ago, fox_up_north said:

I think it's easy to fall into the negative pessimism spiral but think about how much public anger there is that Boris Johnson held parties. Plenty of people followed the rules and that made a difference.

 

There will always be people who deny major events and facts - the earth is flat, we never landed on the moon, the holocaust didn't happen. But as long as a good chunk of people put in effort, it will improve. 

 

Your equivalence would be if nobody bothered during covid. We also have to remember that plenty of other countries put in MORE effort than us. 

Yeah, it is very easy to think the problem "too big", or somehow abstract and nothing to do with Joe Public. But regardless of that, the work still has to be done.

 

But the fact is as a species at the moment we aren't doing enough fast enough and the window to prevent serious harm is closing very fast.

[WigstonWanderer]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/aug/01/billionaire-investor-threatens-pull-out-uk-global-outcry-oil-rush-andrew-forrest
 

Good on Andrew Forrester.

 

Despite Brexit and all the shitty things the Tories have inflicted on the Uk in that last few years, the one good thing was that they had a much more enlightened view of climate change and the action required, especially compared to their counterparts here in Australia. It seems that Sunak is chucking this overboard in an attempt to create division again and claw some denier votes back.

 

 

[iniesta]

Some good news from an expert https://m.thewire.in/article/environment/dont-overstate-1-5-c-threat-new-ipcc-head-says/amp

[leicsmac]

On 01/08/2023 at 23:08, iniesta said:

Some good news from an expert https://m.thewire.in/article/environment/dont-overstate-1-5-c-threat-new-ipcc-head-says/amp

He's quite right on the topic of fear being a paralytic and that not being good here, and also right that an increase of "just" 1.5 degrees C won't be apocalyptic, but it would be a "more dangerous" world in which more people would suffer and die needlessly.

 

Unfortunately, as the article states, it won't be "just" a 1.5 degree rise we are facing - at current projections of what is being planned and executed now, it's more like between 3 and 3.5 degrees. Which will have a much more significant effect on the landscape, unless we can reduce that through timely action.

 

To be honest, I would agree with pretty much everything Skea says in that article.

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-66387537

 

The oceans have hit their hottest ever recorded temperature as they soak up warmth from climate change, with dire implications for our planet's health. 

 

The average daily global sea surface temperature beat a 2016 record this week, according to the EU's climate change service Copernicus. 

 

It reached 20.96C. That's far above the average for this time of year.

 

Record breakers!

[leicsmac]

On a more positive note, the comments accompanying that article (at the least the most popular ones) are now more readable and congnisant of the problem, and it being a big issue in the minds of the public might help going forward.

[The Year Of The Fox]

On 31/07/2023 at 22:05, Wymsey said:

What will it take to get individuals to take climate change seriously and businesses to create more environmentally-friendly products and services?

Some decent summers