General News

[Lionator]

4 hours ago, Dahnsouff said:

Question is, if Europe makes a stand and send troops to Ukraine - what happens?

Nuclear exchanges? Putin gets assistance from the US? 

Europe isn’t sending troops to Ukraine so that won’t be a problem. 
 

We won’t engage in a war with Russia unless we’ve lost our collective minds. 

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Europe isn’t sending troops to Ukraine so that won’t be a problem. 
 

We won’t engage in a war with Russia unless we’ve lost our collective minds. 

Not sure this is the wrong outlook, as we would be par of a peacekeeping source. 

 

So it would be Russia (re) engaging in a war. 

[Dunge]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Rather different to the events of yesterday, that.

Well, Starmer embraced Zelensky as opposed to bending his head over into his own fart so it was already an improvement.

[Lionator]

2 hours ago, nnfox said:

It wouldn't happen.  If Europe actually sent troops into Ukraine, Russia would make a lot of noise and a lot of threats.  Some kind of cyber attack that might give European nations a temporary bloody nose, but no way they'd use nukes and Russia just couldn't go toe to toe with a united Europe. 

 

The US would react as they should.  If Europe falls, it would be cataclysmic for the US economy and we can all see that that is where Trump's priorities lay.  I think he'd do the right thing, but for the wrong reasons.

I’m sorry but so many reactions are bordering on insane, it’s actually becoming incredibly dangerous. If Europe falls? How would it fall? Who is going to make it fall? The army that couldn’t even take a fifth of one of the poorest countries in Europe? Do you really think Putin has any intention of rolling across Europe?? Listen and read to actual experts on this topic rather than the sound bites on sky news and on social media by people who haven’t got the first clue about foreign policy, who only flit from one crisis news topic to another. Europe is not falling. Europe will be fine. It just needs to grow a backbone, and believe itself again. Putin is a bad man, he is not insane. 

[Dunge]

Just now, Dahnsouff said:

Not sure this is the wrong outlook, as we would be par of a peacekeeping source. 

 

So it would be Russia (re) engaging in a war. 

We might be talking crossed purposes here.

[Lionator]

3 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Not sure this is the wrong outlook, as we would be par of a peacekeeping source. 

 

So it would be Russia (re) engaging in a war. 

But Russia will never agree to a ceasefire that leaves British or French troops in Ukraine. So the war would roll in regardless. And it simply is not in our greater interest to engage in an active war with Russia. Putin will simply call our bluff on that. 

Edited 1 March 2025 by Lionator

[Dahnsouff]

3 minutes ago, Lionator said:

But Russia will never agree to a ceasefire that leaves British or French troops in Ukraine. So the war would roll in regardless. And it simply is not in our greater interest to engage in an active war with Russia. Putin will simply call our bluff on that. 

So either let Russia have sovereign Ukraine territory to end the or the war just rumbles on? 

[Dunge]

2 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

So either let Russia have sovereign Ukraine territory to end the or the war just rumbles on? 

Entirely possible, although there’s a big problem on the horizon of America not just ending support to Ukraine but also boosting the Russian economy with Trumpdeals.

[Lionator]

5 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

So either let Russia have sovereign Ukraine territory to end the or the war just rumbles on? 

Yes. We’re all emotionally tied to this and the injustice of it all. But ask yourself and your family members, are some towns in the east of Ukraine worth completely transforming your life for? Air raids, risk of escalation to nuclear war, massive cuts on healthcare and other welfare systems to fund urgent defence measures massive alteration to your way of life. Because that’s what war with Russia would entail. And I think if you laid it out as starkly as that, it’s simply not in our interest. 
 

What is in our interest is to stop this war, invest in our armed forces to ensure Putin isn’t tempted to go any further and to work on maintaining our relationship with the states and other EU powers. 
 

As I’ve said in other posts, and posted on the old Ukraine thread. It was ALWAYS going to end like this once the counter offensive of 2023 failed. You’ve been duped into thinking Ukraine could expel Russians from Ukrainian lands, people now still think they’re imminently going to see Ukranian tanks rolling into Crimea. It’s not happening. So Zelenskyy either ends it now with the best deal he can get with the US or he just slowly loses more ground until both sides run out of steam. 

Edited 1 March 2025 by Lionator

[whoareyaaa]

 

Hopefully they can come to some agreement to end it and the UK have just handed over 2.6 billion  

Edited 1 March 2025 by whoareyaaa

[Dahnsouff]

23 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Yes. We’re all emotionally tied to this and the injustice of it all. But ask yourself and your family members, are some towns in the east of Ukraine worth completely transforming your life for? Air raids, risk of escalation to nuclear war, massive cuts on healthcare and other welfare systems to fund urgent defence measures massive alteration to your way of life. Because that’s what war with Russia would entail. And I think if you laid it out as starkly as that, it’s simply not in our interest. 
 

What is in our interest is to stop this war, invest in our armed forces to ensure Putin isn’t tempted to go any further and to work on maintaining our relationship with the states and other EU powers. 
 

As I’ve said in other posts, and posted on the old Ukraine thread. It was ALWAYS going to end like this once the counter offensive of 2023 failed. You’ve been duped into thinking Ukraine could expel Russians from Ukrainian lands, people now still think they’re imminently going to see Ukranian tanks rolling into Crimea. It’s not happening. So Zelenskyy either ends it now with the best deal he can get with the US or he just slowly loses more ground until both sides run out of steam. 

Summarised in 3 words as “might is right”

[Lionator]

9 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Summarised in 3 words as “might is right”

Basically how it’s always been, we’ve just had a 30 year break since 1991. USA and Soviet Union have been doing this since 1945, it’s just a sad continuation of that. Our generation live in a bubble where we see right and wrong as deciphers of geopolitics, but geopolitics is about greed and injustice, it’s just that Trump says the silent part out loud. 

Edited 1 March 2025 by Lionator

[Dunge]

The West has been at the top of the food chain for decades, so we’ve largely made the world we want as a result. Now, America’s stepping back and we’re rolling into this multi-polar world that China’s so keen on. This is what that world looks like. But hard power has always ruled, it just hasn’t been front and centre because we’ve been living under its benevolent umbrella.

[Dahnsouff]

4 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Basically how it’s always been, we’ve just had a 30 year break since 1991. USA and Soviet Union have been doing this since 1945, it’s just a sad continuation of that. Our generation live in a bubble where we see right and wrong as deciphers of geopolitics, but geopolitics is about greed and injustice, it’s just that Trump says the silent part out loud. 

Agree that this is the status quo, but we do have right to disapprove. 

[Dunge]

In related news, I notice that Starmer has done an outward display of cordiality toward Zelensky this evening. Making a point without making a point.

[Md9]

This guy is such a moron. Actually thinks he did something good 

[Lionator]

5 minutes ago, Dunge said:

In related news, I notice that Starmer has done an outward display of cordiality toward Zelensky this evening. Making a point without making a point.

And this is the issue isn’t it. “We stand with Ukraine”, “Winning the peace”, “for as long as it takes”. Slogans that have misled the Ukrainians into believing that we’ll be there for them while we do not have the hard or soft power to actually do any of these things. 

[blabyboy]

47 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Yes. We’re all emotionally tied to this and the injustice of it all. But ask yourself and your family members, are some towns in the east of Ukraine worth completely transforming your life for? Air raids, risk of escalation to nuclear war, massive cuts on healthcare and other welfare systems to fund urgent defence measures massive alteration to your way of life. Because that’s what war with Russia would entail. And I think if you laid it out as starkly as that, it’s simply not in our interest. 
 

What is in our interest is to stop this war, invest in our armed forces to ensure Putin isn’t tempted to go any further and to work on maintaining our relationship with the states and other EU powers. 
 

As I’ve said in other posts, and posted on the old Ukraine thread. It was ALWAYS going to end like this once the counter offensive of 2023 failed. You’ve been duped into thinking Ukraine could expel Russians from Ukrainian lands, people now still think they’re imminently going to see Ukranian tanks rolling into Crimea. It’s not happening. So Zelenskyy either ends it now with the best deal he can get with the US or he just slowly loses more ground until both sides run out of steam. 

The problem here is that your second paragraph costs almost the same as going to war, as Annalise Dodd's resignation the other succinctly pointed out.

 

There are hard decisions coming for the UK whichever course it chooses and sacrifices will need to be made by us all.

[Lionator]

10 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Agree that this is the status quo, but we do have right to disapprove. 

Of course! I highly disapprove of the slaughter of Palestinians but it doesn’t stop it does it? 

[Lionator]

Just now, blabyboy said:

The problem here is that your second paragraph costs almost the same as going to war, as Annalise Dodd's resignation the other succinctly pointed out.

 

There are hard decisions coming for the UK whichever course it chooses and sacrifices will need to be made by us all.

Preventing war through deterrence is by orders of magnitude less expensive than going to war. 

[leicsmac]

15 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Basically how it’s always been, we’ve just had a 30 year break since 1991. USA and Soviet Union have been doing this since 1945, it’s just a sad continuation of that. Our generation live in a bubble where we see right and wrong as deciphers of geopolitics, but geopolitics is about greed and injustice, it’s just that Trump says the silent part out loud. 

 

10 minutes ago, Dunge said:

The West has been at the top of the food chain for decades, so we’ve largely made the world we want as a result. Now, America’s stepping back and we’re rolling into this multi-polar world that China’s so keen on. This is what that world looks like. But hard power has always ruled, it just hasn’t been front and centre because we’ve been living under its benevolent umbrella.

 

9 minutes ago, Dahnsouff said:

Agree that this is the status quo, but we do have right to disapprove. 

This.

 

And to expand on it, we have the right to disapprove because such ideas are incompatible with the future we will have to live in and thinking and acting otherwise is going to get a lot of people, if not human civilisation itself, fvcking killed.

 

(Emphasis on those last two words.)

[Salisbury Fox]

48 minutes ago, Lionator said:

I’m sorry but so many reactions are bordering on insane, it’s actually becoming incredibly dangerous. If Europe falls? How would it fall? Who is going to make it fall? The army that couldn’t even take a fifth of one of the poorest countries in Europe? Do you really think Putin has any intention of rolling across Europe?? Listen and read to actual experts on this topic rather than the sound bites on sky news and on social media by people who haven’t got the first clue about foreign policy, who only flit from one crisis news topic to another. Europe is not falling. Europe will be fine. It just needs to grow a backbone, and believe itself again. Putin is a bad man, he is not insane. 

You are right, much of the Russian military has been destroyed, but given that Putin uses external conflict as a rallying tool I don’t expect them to all of a sudden become a peaceful nation. It will likely take years for them to rearm, but we must not underestimate the ability of their people to endure hardship  for the sake of the nation, and for Putin to even care about those outside of Moscow and St Petersburg. Europe are unable to be able to match theis without significant sacrifice.
 

Whilst Western Europe may have less of a threat to worry about, the Baltic states etc are right to be worried as can we, or would we defend them if attacked. I certainly doubt that the US would come to their aid. It’s also worth considering that attacks don’t always have to be through the use of a conventional military, for years Russia has been sowing the seeds of discontent in Europe. Fico and Orban are proof that a country can be aligned to Russian interests without force. 

 

[Salisbury Fox]

13 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Preventing war through deterrence is by orders of magnitude less expensive than going to war. 

Assuming you mean nuclear, well you have to be able and willing to use them. Would they be used in the defence of say Estonia?

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Salisbury Fox said:

Assuming you mean nuclear, well you have to be able and willing to use them. Would they be used in the defence of say Estonia?

If they're used in any capacity then both sides have already lost anyway.

[Salisbury Fox]

Just now, leicsmac said:

If they're used in any capacity then both sides have already lost anyway.

Agreed.