4-5-1-ers should hang their heads

[Thracian]

Don't say I didn't give fair warning.

Technically we lost on penalties but, once again, England surrendered tactically from the start by adopting such a ridiculous system with the players we've got and in the oppressive temperatures.

Do people like SGE actually believe the rubbish they talk about 4-5-1?.

"With this system the midfield players will be able to support the front man in numbers..." said the England sage.

Truth is that barely happens with England at the best of times, the support players are not strikers anyway and at that temperature it was an imbecilic idea.

Even with that system Rooney is not a centre-forward and although he utterly let the team down by his actions that sending off was down to one thing - the sheer frustration of having to forage like a trojan with ever diminishing support and in an ever greater state of exhaustion while never having the chance of an appeth of space to do the one thing wanted of a central striker - have shots on goal.

Even for such a vital game there was SGE looking like a tailor ready to measure the players up for a suit.

He was about as animated as a rabbit that had been run over a week ago.

So SGE duly signed off with the failure I warned of - through our predicted failure to score enough goals and the failure to have the balls and adventure to go forward and win the game with all the best weapons at our disposal.

We all know the trouble started by failing to select enough fit strikers but the players he did select could have got us through to the semi-final, no question.

Crouch may not look elegant and is no great striker but he's was the best we had available in the lone role (as he showed later) and he has delivered something lately while threquarters-fit Rooney has always been a loose cannon prone to frustration and angry reaction and has delivered sod all.

It will sound harsh but if I were the England manager it would be at least two seasons before I would select Rooney again. By then he would either have learned his lesson or his international career would be over - and I wouldn't give a shit either way.

That won't happen and he'll carry on having an over-inflated opinion of himself and believing the football world revolves around him. It is not as if he lacks experience. He has been responsible for similar incidents in the past which have let people down but he just doesn't learn.

Tactically England are now left with paperback-writer McLaren, presumably and ironically the architect of the basically abyssmal tactics we adopted throughout the tournament.

Losing will only be the best thing that could have happened to us if it leads to a complete national rethink about how our game should be played.

There were real heroes in the England team today, lots of them, and that they should have suffered the indignity of losing that match because of limp-wristed tactics, endless managerial inadequacies and Rooney going awol was appalling.

And that McLaren will now be paid mega-money as a thankyou for that managerial shambles beggars belief.

For me it was a tournament lost because we didn't have the courage to have a go.

[dandannieldanok]

Don't say I didn't give fair warning.

Technically we lost on penalties but, once again, England surrendered tactically from the start by adopting such a ridiculous system with the players we've got and in the oppressive temperatures.

Do people like SGE actually believe the rubbish they talk about 4-5-1?.

"With this system the midfield players will be able to support the front man in numbers..." said the England sage.

Truth is that barely happens anyway with England at the best of times, the support players are not strikers anyway and at that temperature it was an imbecilic idea.

Even with that system Rooney is not a centre-forward and although he utterly let the team down by his actions that sending off was down to one thing - the sheer frustration of having to forage like a trojan with ever diminishing support and in an ever greater state of exhaustion while never having the chance of an appeth of space to do the one thing wanted of a central striker - have shots on goal.

Even for such a vital game there was SGE looking like a tailor ready to measure the players up for a suit.

He was about as animated as a rabbit that had been run over a week ago.

So SGE duly signed off with the failure I warned of - through our predicted failure to score enough goals and the failure to have the balls and adventure to go forward and win the game with all the best weapons at our disposal.

We all know the trouble started by failing to select enough fit strikers but the players he did select could have got us through to the semi-final, no question.

Crouch may not look elegant and is no great striker but he's was the best we had available in the lone role (as he showed later) and he has delivered something lately while threquarters-fit Rooney has always been a loose cannon prone to frustration and angry reaction and has delivered sod all.

It will sound harsh but if I were the England manager it would be at least two seasons before I would select Rooney again. By then he would either have learned his lesson or his international career would be over - and I wouldn't give a shit either way.

That won't happen and he'll carry on having an over-inflated opinion of himself and believing the football world revolves around him. It is not as if he lacks experience and has been responsible for similar incidents which have let people down.

Tactically England are now left with paperback-writer McLaren, presumably and ironically the architect of the basically abyssmal tactics we adopted throughout the tournament.

Losing will only be the best thing that could have happened to us if it leads to a complete national rethink about how our game should be played.

There were real heroes in the England team today, lots of them, and that they should have suffered the indignity of losing that match because of limp-wristed tactics, endless managerial inadequacies and Rooney going awol.

And that McLaren will now be paid mega-money as a thankyou for that managerial shambles beggars belief.

Good point well made, was so glad to see Crouch play!

[Ultra]

Complete nonsense.

If Gerrard and Lampard hadn't dropped too deep, and given Rooney more support, we could have won that game!

And in any event, Portugal played 4-5-1 too...

[Thracian]

Complete nonsense.

If Gerrard and Lampard hadn't dropped too deep, and given Rooney more support, we could have won that game!

And in any event, Portugal played 4-5-1 too...

But they did drop too deep, not that they were the only problem with the system. Rooney consequently didn't get support. He spent most of the time chasing lost causes too far from goal and so got knackered and frustrated.

And I am aware of what Portugal did. It was the only way Scolari could conceive of beating England with a weakened team.

Read the post. I said it didn't suit the players WE'D got. I don't give a damn what Portugal decided to do with their team.

But have it your own way. One day perhaps you and England will see the light but meanwhile I'll let you justify our tactics and policies in this competition any way you like. To me it doesn't matter any more.

We've blown it for another four years and while people justify our tactics by comparing them with Portugal (who didn't play well and should have been stuffed out of sight) then we'll continue to lose.

We should be innovative enough to set our own agenda.

[Nationwider]

I'm with Thracian. 4-5-1:- sound in theory, but utter garbage when England tried to put it into practice.

Crouch was full of himself before the World Cup - scoring for club and country, demanding the ball, and ok, messing up quite a lot, but at least picking himself up and having a go again. He was the man - our unlikely but effective spearhead to play in front of Roonaldo.

Still, it all means nothing now - I've had a good few weeks managing from my armchair with a few cans. We all could have done better than Sven.

Horses for courses - we came with a team of thoroughbreds, but Sven took us to the dogs instead.

[Phube]

To true, if you want a 5 man midfield you should play 3-5-2, at least it's partially attacking. The way we played the 4-5-1 was just soo bloody defensive with Flampard and Gerrard picking up the ball of Rio's toes (that is unless he hoofed it up to no-one!!).

[macbeth]

the system was irrelevant

it was all down to unfit or under performing individuals

[davieG]

the system was irrelevant

it was all down to unfit or under performing individuals

It was relevant as Portugal were also full of unfit or under performing individuals.

[macbeth]

It was relevant as Portugal were also full of unfit or under performing individuals.

their players became unfit/unavailable during the tournament; we took ours with us

the swede made massive howlers in his squad selection and a fit defoe bent nolan etc would have took one of the chances last night

all talk of systems is pseudo -scientific claptrap

[Nationwider]

their players became unfit/unavailable during the tournament; we took ours with us

the swede made massive howlers in his squad selection and a fit defoe bent nolan etc would have took one of the chances last night

all talk of systems is pseudo -scientific claptrap

Maybe.

But there is a difference between 4-5-Rooney and 4-5----(40 yds)-----Rooney.

I can't deny the point about the squad though. The contribution of Theo Walcott was invaluable.

[Ultra]

His girlfriend got herself in the papers a few times.

[macbeth]

His girlfriend got herself in the papers a few times.

so does fish and chips

[Ultra]

4-5-1 was the only realistic option we had, once Owen was injured. Crouch battled hard but is out of his depth at international level.

It's a formation many of the side, Gerrard and Lampard in particular, are familiar with through their clubs. Unfortunately, whether by accident or design, they sat too deep to make the system work effectively. Having Beckham, whose own instincts are also to sit deep as he lacks the pace to attack opposing full-backs, in the team unbalances the side still further.

Ultimately we went out because of the inadequacies of those in the dugout. The FA's decision to promote McClaren after this tournament looks even more absurd now. Although we should qualify for Euro 2008 their ineptitude means we don't have a hope in hell of doing anything once we get there, even though Owen should be back and most of the current squad (perhaps with the exception of Neville and Beckham) should still be around.

Scapegoating Rooney for his indiscretion (which may anyway only have existed in Portuguese minds) is monstrously unjust, especially when it comes from the same quarters who incessantly argue elsewhere on these boards that youth is the way forward. It's very easy to forget that he is still only 20. Hopefully he will have learnt a bitter lesson from yesterday.

With Argentina and Brazil also out, we've wasted a glorious opportunity. It may be decades before it comes our way again..

[davieG]

4-5-1 was the only realistic option we had, once Owen was injured. Crouch battled hard but is out of his depth at international level.

It's a formation many of the side, Gerrard and Lampard in particular, are familiar with through their clubs. Unfortunately, whether by accident or design, they sat too deep to make the system work effectively. Having Beckham, whose own instincts are also to sit deep as he lacks the pace to attack opposing full-backs, in the team unbalances the side still further.

Ultimately we went out because of the inadequacies of those in the dugout. The FA's decision to promote McClaren after this tournament looks even more absurd now. Although we should qualify for Euro 2008 their ineptitude means we don't have a hope in hell of doing anything once we get there, even though Owen should be back and most of the current squad (perhaps with the exception of Neville and Beckham) should still be around.

Scapegoating Rooney for his indiscretion (which may anyway only have existed in Portuguese minds) is monstrously unjust, especially when it comes from the same quarters who incessantly argue elsewhere on these boards that youth is the way forward. It's very easy to forget that he is still only 20. Hopefully he will have learnt a bitter lesson from yesterday.

With Argentina and Brazil also out, we've wasted a glorious opportunity. It may be decades before it comes our way again..

And some of us may not be around by then.

[Sparky]

4-5-1 wasnt the way to go yesterday . portugal were there for the taking and we should have gone with the good old tried and tested 4-4-2 and if that meant leaving lampard out then so be it .

but the the choice of formation was just 1 instant of svens tactical nievity, there seemed to be no urgency to get lamps , gerrard or j cole to get within 20 yards of rooney and support him. where did he plan to get our width from ? j cole and becks moved infield at every oppotunity , neville and ash cole didnt get forward much at all . in fact our best moments in wide areas seemed to come from owen hargreaves OUR HOLDING MIDFIELDER !

[breadandcheese]

4-5-1 wasnt the way to go yesterday . portugal were there for the taking and we should have gone with the good old tried and tested 4-4-2 and if that meant leaving lampard out then so be it .

but the the choice of formation was just 1 instant of svens tactical nievity, there seemed to be no urgency to get lamps , gerrard or j cole to get within 20 yards of rooney and support him. where did he plan to get our width from ? j cole and becks moved infield at every oppotunity , neville and ash cole didnt get forward much at all . in fact our best moments in wide areas seemed to come from owen hargreaves OUR HOLDING MIDFIELDER !

Was gonna say. It seemed as if Hargreaves was the more attacking midfielder. He got forward far more than Lampard or Gerrard. Hargreaves wore the shirt with pride today, fighting for everything and never giving up. He proved all the doubters wrong. I questioned his inclusion in the squad and apologise for doing so. If only we had 11 men like him on the pitch.

Fact is, we said this before the world cup kicked off, but Sven picked a rubbish squad gambling on the fitness of Rooney and Owen, whilst not taking any adequate backup for them.

4-5-1 was never going to work. Didn't work against Ecuador, wasn't going to work against the Portugese. With 11 men on the pitch, we still would not have broken the Portugese down, but for maybe a set-piece. We never looked like an attacking threat throughout the tournament, especially when we played Rooney, one of our best players, in one of the only attacking roles he is not suited to.

Fact is, Sven spent many years molding a group of individuals into an ineffective unit. We did not create a team and only played the best individual players. Always a mistake, which we remarked upon after 2002, 2004 and now 2006.

The FA must be sitting down today thinking what have we done appointing McClaren. Is he really the answer? I do not see what he will do differently and as such think he'll have two years in the job.

Rubbish tournament for us with poor performances throughout. How players like Beckham can think any different is beyond me. The players fought well in the last game but by then, it was too late.

[BartonFox]

That'll be the same 4-5-1 formation that France scudded Brazil with.

To be fair they actually have good players and not anglo-hyped nonces like England and they play for their country and not their bank balances.

[Ultra]

"Anglo-hyped nonces"

That's why..

* Beckham, Neville, Gerard and Hargreaves are Champions League winners

* Terry has twice captained the Premiership winners

* Owen is a veteran of four major tournaments before this one.

* Lampard was voted 2nd best player in the world last year. (although the person who beat him didn't do too much this summer either)

Add Rooney, Ferdinand and the two Coles to the above and the potential of the team is obvious.

Unfortunately that's all it remained. The most incompetent fcukwits ever to occupy an England dugout (including Keegan, Hoddle and the two Taylors) made sure of that.

[stez]

To true, if you want a 5 man midfield you should play 3-5-2, at least it's partially attacking. The way we played the 4-5-1 was just soo bloody defensive with Flampard and Gerrard picking up the ball of Rio's toes (that is unless he hoofed it up to no-one!!).

god, that was pissing me off yesterday!

[Head Honcho]

Two strikers on the field should be made compulsory!

The game is about scoring goals and England could have played till next Saturday with that formation and still wouldn't have scored.

[Head Honcho]

That'll be the same 4-5-1 formation that France scudded Brazil with.

To be fair they actually have good players and not anglo-hyped nonces like England and they play for their country and not their bank balances.

....................but Henry can play up front alone.

It's obvious to all (except SGE) that Rooney cannot!

[Thracian]

4-5-1 was the only realistic option we had, once Owen was injured. Crouch battled hard but is out of his depth at international level.

It's a formation many of the side, Gerrard and Lampard in particular, are familiar with through their clubs. Unfortunately, whether by accident or design, they sat too deep to make the system work effectively. Having Beckham, whose own instincts are also to sit deep as he lacks the pace to attack opposing full-backs, in the team unbalances the side still further.

Ultimately we went out because of the inadequacies of those in the dugout. The FA's decision to promote McClaren after this tournament looks even more absurd now. Although we should qualify for Euro 2008 their ineptitude means we don't have a hope in hell of doing anything once we get there, even though Owen should be back and most of the current squad (perhaps with the exception of Neville and Beckham) should still be around.

Scapegoating Rooney for his indiscretion (which may anyway only have existed in Portuguese minds) is monstrously unjust, especially when it comes from the same quarters who incessantly argue elsewhere on these boards that youth is the way forward. It's very easy to forget that he is still only 20. Hopefully he will have learnt a bitter lesson from yesterday.

With Argentina and Brazil also out, we've wasted a glorious opportunity. It may be decades before it comes our way again..

As I said Rooney is an experienced footballer at every level who has had stacks of chances to learn from his indiscretions. He clearly hasn't learned and what I said I'd do as a result would be my reaction not what I'd expect you to do. You might think call it monstrous but I'd sleep with a clear conscience.

I might argue for youth but how the hell that equates me with wanting serial irresponsibility I don't know.

I'm by nature a tolerant person who is always inclined to give people a chance or two but I'd never let people make a habit of letting me down.

As for 4-5-1 I don't really want to dignify the system with further discussion. It is an abomination and however hard you make excuses for it that system, as adopted by our manager and coach, was the system which let us down and let us down miserably.

It was not the only option (realistic or otherwise) as is patently obvious. Put bluntly we bottled it. We tiptoed out of a competition without ever trying to win it. Trying not to lose is not the same as trying to win and talking around today that is clearly not just my opinion.

I have no comment about McLaren other than what I've already mentioned about his share of the responsibility for England's tactics but as MON said afterwards, he is his own man down and the buck now stops squarely with him.

He might learn from what happened. He might not though he wouldn't have been my choice because my impression is that he is not clever enough, analytical enough, bold enough orirrespressible enough to be a winner at the highest level.

I hope he makes me eat my words by SGE didn't.

[Thracian]

Just think: that would only have allowed us to play 3-5-2, 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or the recognised systems!.

[MC Prussian]

Hmm... Interesting debate... But let me ask you this one question (or let's call it a thought):

Am I wrong or are good quality strikers on the verge of being extinct?

All we've seen in this tournament are very dominant midfielders and more or less solid defenders, but no good strikers.

And I wouldn't even say that this is an English problem, where you look beyond Owen, Rooney and Owen and spot nobody that comes even close to that class.

Look at the percentage of Premiership (and even Championship) clubs with foreign attackers up front.

[The People's Hero]

Hmm... Interesting debate... But let me ask you this one question (or let's call it a thought):

Am I wrong or are good quality strikers on the verge of being extinct?

All we've seen in this tournament are very dominant midfielders and more or less solid defenders, but no good strikers.

And I wouldn't even say that this is an English problem, where you look beyond Owen, Rooney and Owen and spot nobody that comes even close to that class.

Look at the percentage of Premiership (and even Championship) clubs with foreign attackers up front.

I saw plenty of good forward play.

To name one who was outstanding in his own right .. Torres.

It does seem that the defending has been of a high standard though and that most nations have approached the game in an extremely cautious way.