British Airways staff on the sick

[breadandcheese]

A poorly-paid worker can quit her job and start up her own business.

ALL poorly paid workers cannot simultaneously quit their jobs and start up their own businesses. We cannot all be employers, some need to be employees.

Similarly, for the rich to be rich they need for some people to be poor. The rich maintain the system. The system maintains poverty.

Even if every single person on the planet got up tomorrow (which is a Saturday, but never mind) and worked their hardest to improve their lot, there would still be unemployed people, there would still be millions of people who live below the poverty line.

It isn't the case that poor people are poor because they're lazy. Poor people will necessarily exist as long as a tiny elite hoarde virtually all the planet's wealth for themselves.

Funniest post of the year. What a load of old b*ll*cks and a complete misunderstanding of how capitalism works.

[The People's Hero]

God, what a **** he is!

[Thracian]

Or maybe that's what you say to yourself to justify your own failings.

I was born to a working class family from leicester. My mum and dad worked hard all their life to give me an opportunity which I have grabbed with both hands and am now carving out a successful career.

No power and priviledge at any point.

Get your head out of your Marxism books and join the real world, comrade.

I don't think he will. There's seems to be a lot of bitterness and hatred in there. But is it because he loves the working man or because he hates anyone who has money or privilege?.

And what is it anyway about the Marxist/Communist way of life around the world that is so demonstrably wonderful?

Look at Russia. Wonderful example of wealth and prosperity being shared around I must say.

I've not so long ago come back from Bulgaria who know all about being under Russian control.

I didn't meet anyone who was keen for a return.

The austerity the Russians left behind was depressing to see.

And what about China. Booming nation. Three Swans gives a searching insight into life in Communist China and how wonderfully the peasants weren't treated.

Lemon's right in one way. We don't have a perfect society or one that is always fair.

But it's a sight better than most - as demonstrated by all the ethnic foreigners, many employed by BA - who want to work here.

And speaking to an American national over Christmas and New Year I didn't get the impression that her country was a bad place to live either. And the speed at which the poor people of Mexico want to get in doesn't suggest they think it so bad either.

Bitterness, jealousy and envy can be so destructive, they can eat away like a cancer.

It's all be tried. Everyone is not equal.

Everyone is dealt a set of cards and should play them to the best of their ability to whatever end gives them - not the most money - but the most fulfillment.

There's more satisfaction and less frustration.

[vanfox12]

OR they aren't actually sick!! How many times have you not been able to go to work this year...do you actually have a job??

Most people will average between 2-5 days per year I reckon, in fact I ACTUALLY believe that even then, they COULD go to work, its an attitude to "getting whats due me" I despise it.

I've averaged a day off a year in the last 7 years but generally that was because i was genuinely ill. I agree some people take the piss and it is pretty obvious the ones that do, do it on a regularly basis but don't judge all as skyvers what if they have a serious illness such as Cancer. Furthermore do some of you advocate ill people coming into work making everyone else ill.

[The People's Hero]

If these people were self-employed, would they consider themselves ill enough not to work that day?

Would they fook.

[vanfox12]

If these people were self-employed, would they consider themselves ill enough not to work that day?

Would they fook.

Probably not but eh everyones different - one mans cold is another mans flu. I get paid sick pay but i don't believe in taking the piss and having days off to piss off to Alton Towers like some people. Of course not if you're self employed you don't get sick pay and you'd only take time off if you could afford it. The same would apply if employees didn't get sick pay. If they were ill instead of taking the week off, they'd only have a day or two off. Besides i thought companies generally have rules in place regarding sick pay.When i worked at Asda you had to give at least two hours notice if you weren't going to be in owing to illness and if you were off for more than 3 days you needed a doctors note. In my current job you have ring before 10 am (starting at 9am) to tell the boss you're ill and again if off for 4 days or more you need a doctors note. I get the feeling some of you are either self employed or really love your jobs.

[Webbo]

Probably not but eh everyones different - one mans cold is another mans flu. I get paid sick pay but i don't believe in taking the piss and having days off to piss off to Alton Towers like some people. Of course not if you're self employed you don't get sick pay and you'd only take time off if you could afford it. The same would apply if employees didn't get sick pay. If they were ill instead of taking the week off, they'd only have a day or two off. Besides i thought companies generally have rules in place regarding sick pay.When i worked at Asda you had to give at least two hours notice if you weren't going to be in owing to illness and if you were off for more than 3 days you needed a doctors note. In my current job you have ring before 10 am (starting at 9am) to tell the boss you're ill and again if off for 4 days or more you need a doctors note. I get the feeling some of you are either self employed or really love your jobs.

yes and no.

[Lemon Harpic]

to say the poor will remain poor etc is going abit too far and a prime example is the immigrant community and foreign labour, and if you look at the polish community and narborough road inparticular, they are thriving, opening bars, shops etc!!

Er, yes, there are some well-off Poles on Narborough Rd (A few Saturdays back I was stopped there by a group of young Poles who wanted to know where they could buy some cocaine), but the influx of Eastern Europeans has not eradicated poverty either in this country or in Poland. People still remain poor.

The truth is that for every condescending, self-satisfied wànker who smugly tells us how they've pulled themselves out of poverty by their bootstraps, there are just as many people who have struggled just as hard only to have the door slammed shut in their face time after time. Nobody, it seems, wants to acknowldege that luck has played a part in getting them where they are today, we'd all much rather believe we've earned everything we have. Mostly, though, that's not true. We owe a lot more to circumstance than anyone would care to admit.

On a global scale, there are easily enough resources on planet Earth to provide plentifully for everyone, yet how many millions of people suffer and die through poverty? If we wish to maintain the pornographic opulence of the wealthy elite then we must accept that some people will have to live in poverty. We cannot all be rich while so much wealth is concentrated in so few hands.

Which is why we should support the BA staff. By standing up to The Man where so many FT members would roll up onto the ground and lick His boots, the BA staff are saying in effect that their company should share out it's money more equitably. Bravo.

[Lemon Harpic]

...Look at Russia...And what about China.

Nearly everytime someone criticises the gross inequality of capitalism, they will have to respond to the knee-jerk reaction above.

Russia and China were not and are not communist, but rather what is known as "state capitalist".

Lenin himself admitted so.

[Lemon Harpic]

we'd all much rather believe we've earned everything we have.

To clarify a little bit, we'd all much rather believe we've earned everything we have in this culture. Someone raised in a strong Islamic culture, for example, who becomes rich and successful may attribute their success to Allah, and actually downplay the role of their own hard work!

But this country is still plagued by the Protestant work ethic, the myth that there is some sort of innate link between hard work and success. This is simply not the case. The James Murdochs and George W Bushs of this world continue to be hugely rewarded for doing the square root of fυck all, while countless millions of people around the world are expected to slave away for an absolute pittance.

[breadandcheese]

Everytime I read your posts on this matter Lemon Harpic, it becomes clearer and clearer that you have a very weak grasping and understanding of capitalism and communism as systems. All you seem to have are a few cheap soundbites that tug at the heartstrings without any depth or reasoning behind it.

[Fez of Mahrez]

Everytime I read your posts on this matter Lemon Harpic, it becomes clearer and clearer that you have a very weak grasping and understanding of capitalism and communism as systems. All you seem to have are a few cheap soundbites that tug at the heartstrings without any depth or reasoning behind it.

I think he does quite well considering he's a powerful cleaner disinfectant.

[Lemon Harpic]

Everytime I read your posts on this matter Lemon Harpic, it becomes clearer and clearer that you have a very weak grasping and understanding of capitalism and communism as systems. All you seem to have are a few cheap soundbites that tug at the heartstrings without any depth or reasoning behind it.

Love the depth and reasoning in your post

[Head Honcho]

What makes me laugh is that they want to get rid of back to work interviews for certain ailments!

It's the BTW policy at BA that has lowered the sickness days from 22 to 12.

The union needs to work with BA on this because then workers who are genuinely ill won't feel pressured to go to work when ill.

I am not anti-union btw I was a member of one for over 20 years.

[breadandcheese]

Love the depth and reasoning in your post

I suggest you read the work of Mises. This is a man who showed exactly why communism couldn't work as a system, due to poor flows of information and the problem of a centralised decision making body. He did this in the 1920s and was of course ridiculed for his work (as of course socialism and communism were strong beliefs back then). Everything he said has been bourne out with the problems that developed in every communist operating area.

The BA dispute over sick pay is nothing unreasonable in my eyes and should not be turned into an issue of exploitation. Here is why:

Most people work hard and do not unreasonably take sick days off. The number of people who have posted to say they haven't taken a single sick day in over a year is a fair few. No doubt, should any of those who work hard fall ill and need to take a day off, their boss will not begrudge that and wish them well. Although we all like to joke, bosses are not the tyrants we make out and generally decent people. As long you don't take the p*ss at work, they are ok and supportive.

Now before 2005, BA cabin crew took 22 days off sickness. This does not compare favourably with the airline industry standard, so you can understand the sceptism of BA bosses. You have to ask questions when a member of staff takes a day off here, a day off there through illness and others don't. We've all worked with people we know are skiving and to be honest it annoys me when I work hard for an honest days pay, whilst others skive, get paid and just generally take the p*ss.

[MC Prussian]

I suggest you read the work of Mises. This is a man who showed exactly why communism couldn't work as a system, due to poor flows of information and the problem of a centralised decision making body. He did this in the 1920s and was of course ridiculed for his work (as of course socialism and communism were strong beliefs back then). Everything he said has been bourne out with the problems that developed in every communist operating area.

The BA dispute over sick pay is nothing unreasonable in my eyes and should not be turned into an issue of exploitation. Here is why:

Most people work hard and do not unreasonably take sick days off. The number of people who have posted to say they haven't taken a single sick day in over a year is a fair few. No doubt, should any of those who work hard fall ill and need to take a day off, their boss will not begrudge that and wish them well. Although we all like to joke, bosses are not the tyrants we make out and generally decent people. As long you don't take the p*ss at work, they are ok and supportive.

Now before 2005, BA cabin crew took 22 days off sickness. This does not compare favourably with the airline industry standard, so you can understand the sceptism of BA bosses. You have to ask questions when a member of staff takes a day off here, a day off there through illness and others don't. We've all worked with people we know are skiving and to be honest it annoys me when I work hard for an honest days pay, whilst others skive, get paid and just generally take the p*ss.

Ludwig Von Mises' theories are an interesting read:

"Mises argued that money is demanded for its usefulness in purchasing other goods, rather than for its own sake and that any expansion of the money supply, not backed by specie, causes business cycles. His other notable contribution was his argument that socialism must fail economically because of the economic calculation problemâ€â€the impossibility of a socialist government being able to make the economic calculations required to organize a complex economy. Mises projected that without a market economy there would be no functional price system, which he held essential for achieving rational allocation of capital goods to their most productive uses. Socialism would fail as demand cannot be known without prices, according to Von Mises. Mises' criticism of socialist paths of economic development is well-known."

[Lemon Harpic]

I suggest you read the work of Mises. This is a man who showed exactly why communism couldn't work as a system, due to poor flows of information and the problem of a centralised decision making body.

So he showed exactly why state capitalism couldn't work as a system?

Preaching to the choir, mate.

[Thracian]

A poorly-paid worker can quit her job and start up her own business.

ALL poorly paid workers cannot simultaneously quit their jobs and start up their own businesses. We cannot all be employers, some need to be employees.

Similarly, for the rich to be rich they need for some people to be poor. The rich maintain the system. The system maintains poverty.

Even if every single person on the planet got up tomorrow (which is a Saturday, but never mind) and worked their hardest to improve their lot, there would still be unemployed people, there would still be millions of people who live below the poverty line.

It isn't the case that poor people are poor because they're lazy. Poor people will necessarily exist as long as a tiny elite hoarde virtually all the planet's wealth for themselves.

I doubt you'll ever really try to think through what you've said.

Where the hell is it written that someone else should provide anyone with a job?

That they do is helpful and if someone provides 100 jobs for someone - with all the responsibility, insurance implications, health and safety requirements etc that such an undertaking entails - are they not entitled to a reward for that.

And if they provide 1000 jobs wouldn't their efforts be worth a bit more.

It takes nerve and self-belief to run a business and to employ people. It takes a huge amount of risk and there's as much chance of failure, ridicule, embarrassment even destitution as there is of success and reward.

Anyone can choose to go their own way if they have that courage.

Many choose not to. They are not sure they have the qualities to survive on their own so, quite rightly, they choose to lean on someone else, they choose to be sheltered and let someone else take the risks and do the worrying.

Why should anyone take on those responsibilities without being rewarded?.

Last year my wife had an operation and medical treatment that would have cost £100,000+. The neurosurgeons who did the work live in palatial houses close to the Queens Medical Centre. And why not.

Do you think I begrudge them being rich and enjoying that standard of living? Not one bit. I wouldn't wish it otherwise.

They took the responsibility for my wife's future, had the extraordinaryily rare skills to make a difference, gave her back a life that would have ebbed away 30 years ago and I could never, ever hope to repay them.

And last time I heard they'd also treat Marxists.

[Lemon Harpic]

I doubt you'll ever really try to think through what you've said.

Sigh.

I doubt anyone will ever really read what I write.

All I seem to get is garbage implying that I'd like to see the same system the USSR (given the misnomer 'communism') had applied to the UK, or defences of capitalism based on the small proportion of workers who are lucky enough to be well rewarded for their labour which completely ignore the farmany workers in sweatshops or below the poverty line.

Your implicit assertion that employers are paid more because they provide jobs is patently ridiculous. Shareholders reward CEOs who downsize their companies with significant bonuses. With resultant job security for workers falling through the floor, your comments that we "let someone else do the worrying" is bitterly ironic.

[Rincewind]

The cabin crew need to be more passenger friendly.

[cisono]

The cabin crew need to be more passenger friendly.

What, no stewards?

You would no get much sleep on their flights....

[Rincewind]

Oh well I'll make that sacrifice if if that's what it takes to make the crew happy in their job.

[cisono]

At least they are "on the sick" and not actually "sick" (on passengers)

[lcfcalan]

Generally speaking , it is my opinion that most of us are happy to have a 'sick pay scheme' in place where we work. People abusing that scheme though are actually stealing . It is fraud and theft full stop.

However, if i were a big company , employing thousands of people , and having to give my employees a sick pay scheme, would I not get my company accountant to work out that , Joe Bloggs earned £15,000 a year in his job , the job was worth paying £16,000 a year, BUT we pay 15k , just in case Joe goes sick .

Most people in my opinion go to work and work hard for their money, them that just want to skive off.................well they dont deserve to be employed and paid.

[vanfox12]

I suggest you read the work of Mises. This is a man who showed exactly why communism couldn't work as a system, due to poor flows of information and the problem of a centralised decision making body. He did this in the 1920s and was of course ridiculed for his work (as of course socialism and communism were strong beliefs back then). Everything he said has been bourne out with the problems that developed in every communist operating area.

The BA dispute over sick pay is nothing unreasonable in my eyes and should not be turned into an issue of exploitation. Here is why:

Most people work hard and do not unreasonably take sick days off. The number of people who have posted to say they haven't taken a single sick day in over a year is a fair few. No doubt, should any of those who work hard fall ill and need to take a day off, their boss will not begrudge that and wish them well. Although we all like to joke, bosses are not the tyrants we make out and generally decent people. As long you don't take the p*ss at work, they are ok and supportive.

Now before 2005, BA cabin crew took 22 days off sickness. This does not compare favourably with the airline industry standard, so you can understand the sceptism of BA bosses. You have to ask questions when a member of staff takes a day off here, a day off there through illness and others don't. We've all worked with people we know are skiving and to be honest it annoys me when I work hard for an honest days pay, whilst others skive, get paid and just generally take the p*ss.

I think the main reason BA was clamping down on staff sick days was because a numnber of staff took time off at busy times and around Sporting events such as Wimbledon which lead to the accussation that some of the staff were taking the p*ss which may well have been true. Unfortunately up to a 1,000 were doing this and this is why BA took action and on that basis i can understand why.