British Airways staff on the sick

[The People's Hero]

So he showed exactly why state capitalism couldn't work as a system?

Preaching to the choir, mate.

I suppose it depends on to what extent the market is truly free. Where the market is a centralised, planned economy, it shares much with communism and as such cannot work. A free market economy is completely different, as you well know.

[Guest]

The BA dispute over sick pay is nothing unreasonable in my eyes and should not be turned into an issue of exploitation. Here is why:

Most people work hard and do not unreasonably take sick days off. The number of people who have posted to say they haven't taken a single sick day in over a year is a fair few. No doubt, should any of those who work hard fall ill and need to take a day off, their boss will not begrudge that and wish them well. Although we all like to joke, bosses are not the tyrants we make out and generally decent people. As long you don't take the p*ss at work, they are ok and supportive.

Now before 2005, BA cabin crew took 22 days off sickness. This does not compare favourably with the airline industry standard, so you can understand the sceptism of BA bosses. You have to ask questions when a member of staff takes a day off here, a day off there through illness and others don't. We've all worked with people we know are skiving and to be honest it annoys me when I work hard for an honest days pay, whilst others skive, get paid and just generally take the p*ss.

I was, until recently, one of the few "never had a day off sick" type of people. We have a BTW interview system for all absenteeism, and the company has seen absenteeism fall to below the industry average. I have been into work and been physically incapable of working just to avoid this system, which I disagreed with.

However, when I did have to take time off of work, my employers threw it all back in my face. Ok and supportive? Bullying and harassing is more the case. It's crap that the minority have turned the rest of us into virtual criminals in our workplace.

[Smudge]

Sigh.

I doubt anyone will ever really read what I write.

All I seem to get is garbage implying that I'd like to see the same system the USSR (given the misnomer 'communism') had applied to the UK, or defences of capitalism based on the small proportion of workers who are lucky enough to be well rewarded for their labour which completely ignore the farmany workers in sweatshops or below the poverty line.

Your implicit assertion that employers are paid more because they provide jobs is patently ridiculous. Shareholders reward CEOs who downsize their companies with significant bonuses. With resultant job security for workers falling through the floor, your comments that we "let someone else do the worrying" is bitterly ironic.

Having traveled with British Airways hundreds of times, I didn't spot one sweat shop. I believe the pay and perks at BA are outstanding and people want to work for them.

So what the hell has your aspirations to an egalitarian socio-economic system got to do with this thread? I think you would be well advised to turn your attentions to countries where massive inequities abound such as in Mexico, and other Central American states. As Thracian points out, if life is so hard in the US, why are we flooded by illegal immigrants wanting to enjoy the American dream. In fact why don't they just keep going North into Canada where socialism is much more a way of life there than it is here?

[Lemon Harpic]

Where the market is a centralised, planned economy, it shares much with communism

No. It. Doesn't.

[Lemon Harpic]

Having traveled with British Airways hundreds of times, I didn't spot one sweat shop.

What's your point?

As Thracian points out, if life is so hard in the US, why are we flooded by illegal immigrants wanting to enjoy the American dream.

Er, because life is even worse in Mexico than it is in the US?

In fact why don't they just keep going North into Canada where socialism is much more a way of life there than it is here?

How do you propose they get there? The USA is quite a big country to walk through on foot you know?

[Lemon Harpic]

However, when I did have to take time off of work, my employers threw it all back in my face. Ok and supportive? Bullying and harassing is more the case. It's crap that the minority have turned the rest of us into virtual criminals in our workplace.

The proletariat nowadays really are the capitalists' bitches. Mind, body and soul.

Bullied and harrassed by the boss class? Your reaction is to blame your fellow workers. They made my employers do it. A sad indictment of how completely we have come to identify with our oppressors. Stockholm syndrome.

I just keep hearing NIN's Head Like A Hole playing in my head whenever anyone else contributes to this thread.

Bow down before the one you serve, You're going to get what you deserve

[James.]

The proletariat nowadays really are the capitalists' bitches. Mind, body and soul.

Bullied and harrassed by the boss class? Your reaction is to blame your fellow workers. They made my employers do it. A sad indictment of how completely we have come to identify with our oppressors. Stockholm syndrome.

I just keep hearing NIN's Head Like A Hole playing in my head whenever anyone else contributes to this thread.

Bow down before the one you serve, You're going to get what you deserve

[MC Prussian]

The proletariat nowadays really are the capitalists' bitches. Mind, body and soul.

Bullied and harrassed by the boss class? Your reaction is to blame your fellow workers. They made my employers do it. A sad indictment of how completely we have come to identify with our oppressors. Stockholm syndrome.

I just keep hearing NIN's Head Like A Hole playing in my head whenever anyone else contributes to this thread.

Bow down before the one you serve, You're going to get what you deserve

Do you actually practice what you preach?

You sound like a book-smart, but that's about it.

[breadandcheese]

So he showed exactly why state capitalism couldn't work as a system?

Preaching to the choir, mate.

Please define state capitalism. There are two definitions, I would like to know which one you are using.

However, I will say that state capitalism is a complete misnomer of capitalism and not representative of the mechanisms or aims of capitalism. In short, it is anti-capitalism and anti-market forces.

I would urge you once again to read the work of Mises.

[Guest]

The proletariat nowadays really are the capitalists' bitches. Mind, body and soul.

Bullied and harrassed by the boss class? Your reaction is to blame your fellow workers. They made my employers do it. A sad indictment of how completely we have come to identify with our oppressors. Stockholm syndrome.

I just keep hearing NIN's Head Like A Hole playing in my head whenever anyone else contributes to this thread.

Bow down before the one you serve, You're going to get what you deserve

You have completely missed the point. It amazes me how often you do that.

[Head Honcho]

The proletariat nowadays really are the capitalists' bitches. Mind, body and soul.

Bullied and harrassed by the boss class? Your reaction is to blame your fellow workers. They made my employers do it. A sad indictment of how completely we have come to identify with our oppressors. Stockholm syndrome.

I just keep hearing NIN's Head Like A Hole playing in my head whenever anyone else contributes to this thread.

Bow down before the one you serve, You're going to get what you deserve

It's must be hard for you to get up in the morning LH!

Being one of life's victims can't be easy

[Rincewind]

We have a 'back to work interview' policy at my place. Before you can go back work you have to explain why you have missed one or more shifts. Until then we are not paid or allowed to do any shifts. Although this may seem unfair sometimes in my job this needs to be done. If a security calls in sick at short notice a replacement has to be found. This means ringing all those or are having a day off or switching people around on other sites. A lot of the time the reason is a bit too much drink the night/day before, something they ate or there's an England match on the telly. The reason may be genuine illness then in which case you would have a doctors certificate or be hospitalised. In some jobs the loss of one person would not make a lot of difference but there are areas in the job industry where a full staff quota is vital. In my job if a site is not covered the contract could be lost or our company could face a hefty fine. If the BTW policy works for BA it may eventually be beneficial for the workers because if BA save money they can offer better deals when it comes to wage negotiations.

[Dr The Singh]

Er, yes, there are some well-off Poles on Narborough Rd (A few Saturdays back I was stopped there by a group of young Poles who wanted to know where they could buy some cocaine), but the influx of Eastern Europeans has not eradicated poverty either in this country or in Poland. People still remain poor.

The truth is that for every condescending, self-satisfied wànker who smugly tells us how they've pulled themselves out of poverty by their bootstraps, there are just as many people who have struggled just as hard only to have the door slammed shut in their face time after time. Nobody, it seems, wants to acknowldege that luck has played a part in getting them where they are today, we'd all much rather believe we've earned everything we have. Mostly, though, that's not true. We owe a lot more to circumstance than anyone would care to admit.

On a global scale, there are easily enough resources on planet Earth to provide plentifully for everyone, yet how many millions of people suffer and die through poverty? If we wish to maintain the pornographic opulence of the wealthy elite then we must accept that some people will have to live in poverty. We cannot all be rich while so much wealth is concentrated in so few hands.

Which is why we should support the BA staff. By standing up to The Man where so many FT members would roll up onto the ground and lick His boots, the BA staff are saying in effect that their company should share out it's money more equitably. Bravo.

I think the majority of people would agree on the majority of that statement, but these are all ideals, but no-one should expect something for nothing and the balance between those at the top and those at the bottom are shocking. But the BA staff on there take of sick leave is going abit too far!!!

On th Poles issue and on immigrants, my family originate from the punjab and the influx of cash from this country has made punjab a very rich state relative to the rest of hindustan. Yes, there are many poor people and many will remain because humans are selfish, no one gives something for nothing

I work for a company that turns over 100 mill in profit, but I have to fight tooth and nail to get a 'reasonable' pay rise, which I think is unfair but what other options are there, our whole way or employment is based on the same principles. Unions etc these days have very little influence and unfortunately we are dispensible!

On your head feeling like it's been hit by nine inch nails, take some some sulphadiene, or yoga!!

[The People's Hero]

Please define state capitalism. There are two definitions, I would like to know which one you are using.

However, I will say that state capitalism is a complete misnomer of capitalism and not representative of the mechanisms or aims of capitalism. In short, it is anti-capitalism and anti-market forces.

I would urge you once again to read the work of Mises.

Give up mate.. his simplistic argument is obviously cribbed from somewhere else. He doesn't understand any of the mechanics of economies, local or global and refuses to answer anything regarding market forces and how they might come in to play.

It's all buzz words, taglines, padding and cliches.

Now I've seen it for what it is, it's actually quite amusing he's kept the argument going for so along, missing the point at every available opportunity.

[James.]

Give up mate.. his simplistic argument is obviously cribbed from somewhere else. He doesn't understand any of the mechanics of economies, local or global and refuses to answer anything regarding market forces and how they might come in to play.

It's all buzz words, taglines, padding and cliches.

Now I've seen it for what it is, it's actually quite amusing he's kept the argument going for so along, missing the point at every available opportunity.

spot on. i tried, saw the light and now i just laugh.

it really REALLY isn't worth it. you're arguing against a textbook - "Marxism for Dummies".

[lookwhaticando]

All industrial action has been called off for January and February (the two day strikes starting tomorrow and a three-day strike in February, that is).

BBC News

4.6% pay raise this year, inflation-level raise for next year.

No mention of changes to the sickness policy... so it couldn't have been that important to them.

[Rincewind]

I'm not a lover of the Tories but capitalism will always be with us. If all the money and wealth was shared out equally, within a year or two the same people would have the majority of the wealth.

Example. You have 5 thingybobs, Unbeknown to you I know somebody who is looking for this item. So I say to you 'Those thingybobs are going to lose their value, I'll tell you what I'll do, they are worth 5 kudos but I'll give you 6. I'm cutting me own throat here.' You accept the offer and I sell them to the third party for 9 kudos. Already I have made 15 kudos profit which I use to buy 5 thingybobs at the wholesalers. at 3 per item. Do you see where this is going? You are happy with your 5 kudos profit which you put towards a bottle of wine and an Indian take away. I'm happy because soon I can start my own business 'Thingybobs R U'

[breadandcheese]

I'm not a lover of the Tories but capitalism will always be with us. If all the money and wealth was shared out equally, within a year or two the same people would have the majority of the wealth.

Example. You have 5 thingybobs, Unbeknown to you I know somebody who is looking for this item. So I say to you 'Those thingybobs are going to lose their value, I'll tell you what I'll do, they are worth 5 kudos but I'll give you 6. I'm cutting me own throat here.' You accept the offer and I sell them to the third party for 9 kudos. Already I have made 15 kudos profit which I use to buy 5 thingybobs at the wholesalers. at 3 per item. Do you see where this is going? You are happy with your 5 kudos profit which you put towards a bottle of wine and an Indian take away. I'm happy because soon I can start my own business 'Thingybobs R U'

Why did you buy 5 thingybobs from me at 6 kudos when you could have bought them from the wholesalers for 3 kudos?

I'm going to the wholesalers to buy some more thingybobs for 3 kudos as well but I tell you what, I'll still be happy to accept 6 kudos again, unlike you greedy Ken, trying to get your 9 kudos. Still you know where I am if you want to buy.

Maybe, with a bit of luck you'll have to drive down your prices to my 6 kudos. Maybe other entrants to the market will undercut us both so prices will drive ever down to that 3 kudos wholesaler price. The theory of perfect competition wih many entrants, attracted by the profits, driving down prices. How capitalism and markets are supposed to operate. Brings back the economics memories.

[Rincewind]

I got some of it wrong but the idea was there. Also it shows why I'm not in the 5% of richest people. The whole saalers was an afterthought.

Maybe somebody can redemonstrate the idea a little better.