Out of position

[Fez of Mahrez]

It wasn't always like this, was it? It's not just Leicester City, it's everybody these days. I didn't see the game but I've just read that John O'Shea played as a makeshift centre-forward for the second half after Wayne Rooney went off injured at half-time in the Manchester United game this afternoon. This madness started last season when Chelsea, for all their millions upon millions of pounds, had to field Michael Essien at right-back and centre-back for a large part of the season. He wasn't the only Chelsea player playing out of position for long periods last season.

The new season starts and surely they've sorted themselves out? Well, I head down the pub to watch the Charity Shield and hey presto, they're playing 4-3-3 with three wingers up front. This weekend it was Manchester United's turn with Rooney the only striker in their matchday squad and even he isn't an out-and-out goalscoring striker in my eyes. I would guess from Manchester United's lineup today that Patrice Evra played on the left wing and I would guess from Arsenal's lineup earlier that Emmanuel Eboue played on the right wing.

I think managers seem to be losing track of the basics amid all the money flying around the Premiership these days. Which would be fine if it was just the Premiership but we seem to be suffering from the same problem. Newton on the left wing, Wesolowski on the right, then the left, then the centre, Campbell brought on into a right-wing position, Chambers being played at left-back in pre-season... the list goes on.

All the times we've been successful in my lifetime, under Brian Little, Martin O'Neill and Micky Adams, every player has had a position and has stuck to it for a long period. There may have been players adapting to new positions every once in a while but a few games into their stints in alternative positions it was fairly obvious that Steve Walsh and Matt Elliott were handy centre-forwards, for example. Robbie Savage was converted from right wing-back to central midfielder under O'Neill (and actually began his career as a centre-forward I believe). Calum Davidson became a very effective central midfielder in our promotion season under Micky Adams. The difference is that at no point in the past has Shaun Newton ever been a left-winger and at no point will James Wesolowski ever be a left-winger.

It may seem like a minor point in the grand scheme of things but it definitely upset our entire balance yesterday and you wonder why on earth things have got to this stage in modern football? It seems that football has changed and the very best football players are now commodities who must be purchased partly in order that rival clubs do not own them. Liverpool have had a high-profile summer in the transfer market signing Fernando Torres, Ryan Babel, Yossi Benayoun and many others for fees totalling around £50million, yet they have also signed a vast number of foreign youth players. A football team can only field eleven players at any one time. Let's not forget this is the same Liverpool that have won the FA Youth Cup the past two years in a row.

Similarly, we won the FA Premier League at Academy level last season and have spent millions on wages and transfer fees in contrast with our opponents yesterday. Yet we still resort to players playing out of position. Could you have imagined Martin O'Neill going into a season in the late 90s with players playing out of position in quite the same way? We had proven goalkeepers we could trust in, we had our centre-backs, we had our left-sided players and right-sided players, we had our central midfielders and we had our strikers.

These days money seems to have clouded the judgment of many. We pursue a squad capable of playing 46 league games and cup games on top of that. There will be extremely highly-paid men on our payroll for the entirety of this year who play little or no part in any of these games this season. Obviously we have been left with players who have been transfer-listed, one of whom has been offered a move, the terms of which were frankly ridiculous and due to the lack of communication on these kind of matters has been left to look like a money-grabbing young upstart who is quite happy to sit out the season and pick up his wage packet for the year.

Yet even in a year or two's time when Mandaric and Allen have been able to shape the squad entirely to their liking, I still cannot envisage a return to the days when you bought players to suit a position rather than signing up whoever you could get your hands on and then worrying about where to play them later. The recent glut of takeovers in both the Premiership and Championship will continue, players will continue to be ludicrously overpriced and competition for signings will increase even more than the situation this season where clubs like Manchester City and West Ham will quite happily pay well over the odds because money appears to be no object. It's no longer a case of needing a left-back and going and signing a left-back, clubs these days seem to throw money at anyone who looks remotely capable of a decent career at the top level.

It appears that players playing out of position was not just a Rob Kelly thing, it is the future of football and I think it is a real shame.

[MBK]

Very sensible post. I agree except for a point with no real relevance either; that playing players in different positions often makes them a better all round player. For example, I'm sure I read it several times that Weso in a central position was quite a creative force as compared to his main strength last year-getting the ball and playing simple passes.

All in all, I fail to understand why MA chose to start so unless constrained by injuries or lack of faith in left sided players. Pity because I would love to see whether Porter would make it to come good.

[Bluefoxtim]

It's like/was like that with England isn't it. The 11 best players were chosen rather than the best players for each position.

[Simi]

Fantastic post Fez. I really hope people don't quote this all !

I think our problem could be that clubs recognize that we are in need of a left back or indeed left sided players and know that Milan has the money, therefore try and price us out of deals for certain players. Maybe Milan has decided he doesn't want to be taken for a mug like a lot of the other Chairmans around there. Because I find it so hard to believe that we have not tried to address the left sided situation.

Maybe Martin Allen is content with playing Mattock there and Chambers when need be. But Weso playing wide and Newton down the left? That makes no sense to me at all.

I have always felt that players playing down the left should be left footed, it just makes things so much more comfortable when trying to find a pass. As we saw yesterday Newton struggled when given the ball on the left and was forced to chip inside to get the ball and pass. When playing a big man in De Vries up front it really does make no sense at all to play narrow.

Sometime this week, I hope Milan and Martin can get it sorted, yesterday it looked a real hole for us.

[l444ry]

Quite strange how managers are not strong enough to pick a balanced side instead of the "best" eleven players. Sven and the current nonentity were/are obsessed with trying to accomodate Gerrard and Lampard in the England team. Alf Ramsey would be laughing at them for trying. Excellent point Fezorolo.

[Toby or not Toby]

Quite strange how managers are not strong enough to pick a balanced side instead of the "best" eleven players. Sven and the current nonentity were/are obsessed with trying to accomodate Gerrard and Lampard in the England team. Alf Ramsey would be laughing at them for trying. Excellent point Fezorolo.

I think you should decide on your formation and how you want to play, then pick your best 11 that will best play that system the way you want to!

[Thracian]

It wasn't always like this, was it? It's not just Leicester City, it's everybody these days. I didn't see the game but I've just read that John O'Shea played as a makeshift centre-forward for the second half after Wayne Rooney went off injured at half-time in the Manchester United game this afternoon. This madness started last season when Chelsea, for all their millions upon millions of pounds, had to field Michael Essien at right-back and centre-back for a large part of the season. He wasn't the only Chelsea player playing out of position for long periods last season.

The new season starts and surely they've sorted themselves out? Well, I head down the pub to watch the Charity Shield and hey presto, they're playing 4-3-3 with three wingers up front. This weekend it was Manchester United's turn with Rooney the only striker in their matchday squad and even he isn't an out-and-out goalscoring striker in my eyes. I would guess from Manchester United's lineup today that Patrice Evra played on the left wing and I would guess from Arsenal's lineup earlier that Emmanuel Eboue played on the right wing.

I think managers seem to be losing track of the basics amid all the money flying around the Premiership these days. Which would be fine if it was just the Premiership but we seem to be suffering from the same problem. Newton on the left wing, Wesolowski on the right, then the left, then the centre, Campbell brought on into a right-wing position, Chambers being played at left-back in pre-season... the list goes on.

All the times we've been successful in my lifetime, under Brian Little, Martin O'Neill and Micky Adams, every player has had a position and has stuck to it for a long period. There may have been players adapting to new positions every once in a while but a few games into their stints in alternative positions it was fairly obvious that Steve Walsh and Matt Elliott were handy centre-forwards, for example. Robbie Savage was converted from right wing-back to central midfielder under O'Neill (and actually began his career as a centre-forward I believe). Calum Davidson became a very effective central midfielder in our promotion season under Micky Adams. The difference is that at no point in the past has Shaun Newton ever been a left-winger and at no point will James Wesolowski ever be a left-winger.

It may seem like a minor point in the grand scheme of things but it definitely upset our entire balance yesterday and you wonder why on earth things have got to this stage in modern football? It seems that football has changed and the very best football players are now commodities who must be purchased partly in order that rival clubs do not own them. Liverpool have had a high-profile summer in the transfer market signing Fernando Torres, Ryan Babel, Yossi Benayoun and many others for fees totalling around £50million, yet they have also signed a vast number of foreign youth players. A football team can only field eleven players at any one time. Let's not forget this is the same Liverpool that have won the FA Youth Cup the past two years in a row.

Similarly, we won the FA Premier League at Academy level last season and have spent millions on wages and transfer fees in contrast with our opponents yesterday. Yet we still resort to players playing out of position. Could you have imagined Martin O'Neill going into a season in the late 90s with players playing out of position in quite the same way? We had proven goalkeepers we could trust in, we had our centre-backs, we had our left-sided players and right-sided players, we had our central midfielders and we had our strikers.

These days money seems to have clouded the judgment of many. We pursue a squad capable of playing 46 league games and cup games on top of that. There will be extremely highly-paid men on our payroll for the entirety of this year who play little or no part in any of these games this season. Obviously we have been left with players who have been transfer-listed, one of whom has been offered a move, the terms of which were frankly ridiculous and due to the lack of communication on these kind of matters has been left to look like a money-grabbing young upstart who is quite happy to sit out the season and pick up his wage packet for the year.

Yet even in a year or two's time when Mandaric and Allen have been able to shape the squad entirely to their liking, I still cannot envisage a return to the days when you bought players to suit a position rather than signing up whoever you could get your hands on and then worrying about where to play them later. The recent glut of takeovers in both the Premiership and Championship will continue, players will continue to be ludicrously overpriced and competition for signings will increase even more than the situation this season where clubs like Manchester City and West Ham will quite happily pay well over the odds because money appears to be no object. It's no longer a case of needing a left-back and going and signing a left-back, clubs these days seem to throw money at anyone who looks remotely capable of a decent career at the top level.

It appears that players playing out of position was not just a Rob Kelly thing, it is the future of football and I think it is a real shame.

Here, here. It's is a madhouse indecently awash with money that managers spend like kids who've just found Ali Baba's lamp.

What a great pity it's not their money they have to spend. That would earn some respect.

They also follow football's fashions like mindless automatons and not just an overload of players.

Suddenly everyone has sports scientists, dieticians, analysts, video technicians, specialist coaches, psychologists you name it...

I'm sure some of it's encouraged by the PFA to ensure everlasting jobs for the boys but the bottom line result of all the expert input City had on Saturday was a 1-0 defeat at home to Blackpool.

That's one-nil. We didn't even score a goal.

With all that input it's a wonder the boss can think straight to make decisions.

How many bods to change a light bulb comes to mind.....?

[Cheese Me]

IMO Allen had two big problems yesterday that lead to this.

- No one really impressed him enough in pre season to convince him they were good enough to start on the left side (although I was impressed with Hayes when he came on)

- He didn't feel he could leave out any one of Clem, Kishishev or Weso

I'm pretty confident that both problems will be resolved very quickly. I can't for the life of me imagine that we won't have signed a left winger by the time the window closes (although who I have no idea). And from what I've seen of him so far I don't think MA will shy away from the tough decisions again - one of those three won't start against Palace is my prediction.

[Simon]

Spot on post Fez- why is it I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything you say at the moment? It's not even like you HAVE to play 4-4-2, you can play what ever formation you like, as long as you have the players to play it. How difficult is that?

[Phube]

Stupidly long, interesting and relevent post.

Couldn't agree more, and eloquently put.

Quite strange how managers are not strong enough to pick a balanced side instead of the "best" eleven players. Sven and the current nonentity were/are obsessed with trying to accomodate Gerrard and Lampard in the England team. Alf Ramsey would be laughing at them for trying. Excellent point Fezorolo.

Yup, and I bet Jimmy Greaves still hates him for it!!!

[Geo V]

Good post.

The problem for me is that MA doesn't know his best team and doesnt really know what players can and cant do on match day. Thats not his fault as he has only had a handful of pre-season games and some DVDs to call upon along with the training sessions of course.

I can remember when MA joined us, quite soon after he raved about Weso`s energy and hunger but that must have been stuff he saw on DVDs or what the backroom staff told him. The same must have been put in his ear for Hume as he got a new deal very early into MAs career with us. If players are that, "good players", they can usually play anywhere. Yesterday taught him that Weso cant play wide-midfield, even as a makeshift player. Im sure the game gave him plenty of those type of pointers. Going back to the original point I was trying to get at in this paragraph, maybe in time we may see the likes of Hume and Weso hit the bench as he starst to make his own mind up on players?!

Ive said it elsewhere but MA needs to play the best balanced team and not pick players because he doesnt want to drop the, The centre of midfield should be Clemence and either Kisha or weso and not all three IMO and Hume cant play with MDV because neither is a peno box striker IMO. Someone like MF is though and he didn't even get off the bench despite being our top scorer in pre-season. I have full faith that MA will learn about his squad and brush up on each players abilities over the next few games. I just hope some of the knee-jerk reactions that I have read over the last 36 hours dont continue if results aren't favourable over the next fortnight.

[Fez of Mahrez]

Rooney out for a couple of months and now Manchester United have a "striking crisis". The world's gone mad.

[The People's Hero]

It wasn't always like this, was it? It's not just Leicester City, it's everybody these days. I didn't see the game but I've just read that John O'Shea played as a makeshift centre-forward for the second half after Wayne Rooney went off injured at half-time in the Manchester United game this afternoon. This madness started last season when Chelsea, for all their millions upon millions of pounds, had to field Michael Essien at right-back and centre-back for a large part of the season. He wasn't the only Chelsea player playing out of position for long periods last season.

The new season starts and surely they've sorted themselves out? Well, I head down the pub to watch the Charity Shield and hey presto, they're playing 4-3-3 with three wingers up front. This weekend it was Manchester United's turn with Rooney the only striker in their matchday squad and even he isn't an out-and-out goalscoring striker in my eyes. I would guess from Manchester United's lineup today that Patrice Evra played on the left wing and I would guess from Arsenal's lineup earlier that Emmanuel Eboue played on the right wing.

I think managers seem to be losing track of the basics amid all the money flying around the Premiership these days. Which would be fine if it was just the Premiership but we seem to be suffering from the same problem. Newton on the left wing, Wesolowski on the right, then the left, then the centre, Campbell brought on into a right-wing position, Chambers being played at left-back in pre-season... the list goes on.

All the times we've been successful in my lifetime, under Brian Little, Martin O'Neill and Micky Adams, every player has had a position and has stuck to it for a long period. There may have been players adapting to new positions every once in a while but a few games into their stints in alternative positions it was fairly obvious that Steve Walsh and Matt Elliott were handy centre-forwards, for example. Robbie Savage was converted from right wing-back to central midfielder under O'Neill (and actually began his career as a centre-forward I believe). Calum Davidson became a very effective central midfielder in our promotion season under Micky Adams. The difference is that at no point in the past has Shaun Newton ever been a left-winger and at no point will James Wesolowski ever be a left-winger.

It may seem like a minor point in the grand scheme of things but it definitely upset our entire balance yesterday and you wonder why on earth things have got to this stage in modern football? It seems that football has changed and the very best football players are now commodities who must be purchased partly in order that rival clubs do not own them. Liverpool have had a high-profile summer in the transfer market signing Fernando Torres, Ryan Babel, Yossi Benayoun and many others for fees totalling around £50million, yet they have also signed a vast number of foreign youth players. A football team can only field eleven players at any one time. Let's not forget this is the same Liverpool that have won the FA Youth Cup the past two years in a row.

Similarly, we won the FA Premier League at Academy level last season and have spent millions on wages and transfer fees in contrast with our opponents yesterday. Yet we still resort to players playing out of position. Could you have imagined Martin O'Neill going into a season in the late 90s with players playing out of position in quite the same way? We had proven goalkeepers we could trust in, we had our centre-backs, we had our left-sided players and right-sided players, we had our central midfielders and we had our strikers.

These days money seems to have clouded the judgment of many. We pursue a squad capable of playing 46 league games and cup games on top of that. There will be extremely highly-paid men on our payroll for the entirety of this year who play little or no part in any of these games this season. Obviously we have been left with players who have been transfer-listed, one of whom has been offered a move, the terms of which were frankly ridiculous and due to the lack of communication on these kind of matters has been left to look like a money-grabbing young upstart who is quite happy to sit out the season and pick up his wage packet for the year.

Yet even in a year or two's time when Mandaric and Allen have been able to shape the squad entirely to their liking, I still cannot envisage a return to the days when you bought players to suit a position rather than signing up whoever you could get your hands on and then worrying about where to play them later. The recent glut of takeovers in both the Premiership and Championship will continue, players will continue to be ludicrously overpriced and competition for signings will increase even more than the situation this season where clubs like Manchester City and West Ham will quite happily pay well over the odds because money appears to be no object. It's no longer a case of needing a left-back and going and signing a left-back, clubs these days seem to throw money at anyone who looks remotely capable of a decent career at the top level.

It appears that players playing out of position was not just a Rob Kelly thing, it is the future of football and I think it is a real shame.

Wow.

[Lillehamring]

Good post.

The problem for me is that MA doesn't know his best team and doesnt really know what players can and cant do on match day. Thats not his fault as he has only had a handful of pre-season games and some DVDs to call upon along with the training sessions of course.

I can remember when MA joined us, quite soon after he raved about Weso`s energy and hunger but that must have been stuff he saw on DVDs or what the backroom staff told him. The same must have been put in his ear for Hume as he got a new deal very early into MAs career with us. If players are that, "good players", they can usually play anywhere. Yesterday taught him that Weso cant play wide-midfield, even as a makeshift player. Im sure the game gave him plenty of those type of pointers. Going back to the original point I was trying to get at in this paragraph, maybe in time we may see the likes of Hume and Weso hit the bench as he starst to make his own mind up on players?!

Ive said it elsewhere but MA needs to play the best balanced team and not pick players because he doesnt want to drop the, The centre of midfield should be Clemence and either Kisha or weso and not all three IMO and Hume cant play with MDV because neither is a peno box striker IMO. Someone like MF is though and he didn't even get off the bench despite being our top scorer in pre-season. I have full faith that MA will learn about his squad and brush up on each players abilities over the next few games. I just hope some of the knee-jerk reactions that I have read over the last 36 hours dont continue if results aren't favourable over the next fortnight.

well said, this thread is in danger of becoming one of the smartest ever!

it seems apparent that MA played it safe on saturday - by playing the squad he played there really wasn't any reason why we SHOULD have lost, and with the CURSE and it being his first game, having lost, most sensible people are just being patient and understanding. if however, he had left out certain players, or risked more than one (mattock) inexperienced player, people might have argued that he had made too many changes, been too careless, that such a squad could be exposed and lose.

unfortunately, the ball just didn't go in the net.

as apexgeo suggests, i think we will see some of these players on the bench when, not just MA, but the players aswell, become more relaxed and comfortable.

and, to his credit, MA did try to change things, with the formation, i understand, shifting to 433...

personally, i would have liked to see porter start or, if hayes was considered fit enough to play a part in the game, for him to have played the first half or so, and if he struggled/tired then bring one of the CMs on with DJ and go to 433... but, early days, i'm still way more confident than after the shambles and misery that was luton last year!

[Thracian]

well said, this thread is in danger of becoming one of the smartest ever!

it seems apparent that MA played it safe on saturday - by playing the squad he played there really wasn't any reason why we SHOULD have lost, and with the CURSE and it being his first game, having lost, most sensible people are just being patient and understanding. if however, he had left out certain players, or risked more than one (mattock) inexperienced player, people might have argued that he had made too many changes, been too careless, that such a squad could be exposed and lose.

unfortunately, the ball just didn't go in the net.

as apexgeo suggests, i think we will see some of these players on the bench when, not just MA, but the players aswell, become more relaxed and comfortable.

and, to his credit, MA did try to change things, with the formation, i understand, shifting to 433...

personally, i would have liked to see porter start or, if hayes was considered fit enough to play a part in the game, for him to have played the first half or so, and if he struggled/tired then bring one of the CMs on with DJ and go to 433... but, early days, i'm still way more confident than after the shambles and misery that was luton last year!

Three times this season, including the friendlies against Kilmarnock and Portsmouth, MA has said we played better second half when we pressed up higher and attacked the game.

Why doesn't he start by doing that and try to maintain the impetus throughout the match. With five substitutes it shouldn't be a problem.

[Toby or not Toby]

Three times this season, including the friendlies against Kilmarnock and Portsmouth, MA has said we played better second half when we pressed up higher and attacked the game.

Why doesn't he start by doing that and try to maintain the impetus throughout the match. With five substitutes it shouldn't be a problem.

Good point there thracian, why should it take a bollocking at half time for them to start playing!

[Thracian]

Wow.

Playing players out of position is clearly to do with promising people regular football and having to accommodate them most of the time.

Here at Leicester, Weso's been our best midfielder but Clemence and presumably Kishishev have been signed as regulars so MA has a problem.

And that's just one example.

Talking generally, it must be awful being a manager these days with agents demanding this, that and the other before their players will sign.

And what a predicament for the manager when the alternative with sought-after players, should demands not be agreed, is that they go somewere else. Not an easy equation to balance.

As for solutions? Expect a loan spell for Weso! Sorry, only joking.

[The People's Hero]

I've never known Fez to make so much sense.