Mattock For Norris

[hebangsthedrums]

The facts speak for themselves - and dramatically.

Yes they do.

Being between jobs I thought I'd use my time productively and check, and yes all of Sheehans assists are set pieces.

So if you consider Sheehans impact without set pieces as asked (seems fair in a comparison to Mattock as he does not take them), there is none. So the stats you love producing so much don't really give a case for Sheehan being more of a threat than Mattock from open play.

[Thracian]

Yes they do.

Being between jobs I thought I'd use my time productively and check, and yes all of Sheehans assists are set pieces.

So if you consider Sheehans impact without set pieces as asked (seems fair in a comparison to Mattock as he does not take them), there is none. So the stats you love producing so much don't really give a case for Sheehan being more of a threat than Mattock from open play.

I didn't say or imply that the official assists weren't from set pieces, although many of his shots were from open play. I said there were plenty of other near things, shots, involvement in moves, goals that were disallowed any number of things you would rather ignore to supposedly strengthen your argument.

They add up dramatically but there's very little from Mattock that you could put in such a list.

[Shrenchel]

I think Mattock is a far better prospect than Sheehan, but that's not to say he doesn't have his price. Midfield is still where are real problems lie and if Mandy geniunely buy without selling and the offer is very very generous then I think it's got to be done.

[hebangsthedrums]

I didn't say or imply that the official assists weren't from set pieces, although many of his shots were from open play. I said there were plenty of other near things, shots, involvement in moves, goals that were disallowed any number of things you would rather ignore to supposedly strengthen your argument.

They add up dramatically but there's very little from Mattock that you could put in such a list.

But you are talking about facts. All the things you mention are to a degree subjective. The actim stats are as objective as we can get. I happily admit that Sheehan is more of a threat than Mattock. I would also concede he is more of a threat even when you disregard set pieces. However I think that is marginal and I base that on what I have seen with my own eyes. The fact is the stats seem to agree the players are similar when you discount set pieces - neither has any goals or assists.

I can't even be bothered to get into why if his left foot is so great he hasn't done anything with it in open play. I'm sure you would bring up the nearly assists and nearly shots. Fact is nearly scoring doesn't change a 0-0 into a win so I'm not too interested in them.

[TrickyTrev]

I didn't say or imply that the official assists weren't from set pieces, although many of his shots were from open play. I said there were plenty of other near things, shots, involvement in moves, goals that were disallowed any number of things you would rather ignore to supposedly strengthen your argument.

They add up dramatically but there's very little from Mattock that you could put in such a list.

1) No one has produced such a list (for Mattock)

2) Such a list would be highly subjective (at what point is a player involved in a move, does the move have to lead to a goal, what is a near miss)

Your arguement has nothing to do with facts, apart from your bad one about assists, its an opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, football can only be understood through subjective analysis, but you're bonkers if you think "the facts speak for themselves" in this matter or any other in football.

[Thracian]

1) No one has produced such a list (for Mattock)

2) Such a list would be highly subjective (at what point is a player involved in a move, does the move have to lead to a goal, what is a near miss)

Your arguement has nothing to do with facts, apart from your bad one about assists, its an opinion. There is nothing wrong with that, football can only be understood through subjective analysis, but you're bonkers if you think "the facts speak for themselves" in this matter or any other in football.

All you're proving to me is that if someone doesn't want to believe something, if someone wants to blind themselves to the truth, they will do so whatever is said.

[Manwell Pablo]

All you're proving to me is that if someone doesn't want to believe something, if someone wants to blind themselves to the truth, they will do so whatever is said.

Alright then Thracian. Lets compare Stephen Clemance to Andy King and James Wesolowski using the same principle you've just used on Sheehan and Mattock, then we'll see whos blinding themself from the truth.

[Thracian]

Alright then Thracian. Lets compare Stephen Clemance to Andy King and James Wesolowski using the same principle you've just used on Sheehan and Mattock, then we'll see whos blinding themself from the truth.

Having checked and been quite surprised by the stats relating to Clemence I acknowledged exactly that only last week.

Clemence's shots/assists leave him clearly ahead of anyone else. There's nothing ambiguous about it. And I am perfectly happy to stand by my principles on the matter.

I've also mentioned a couiple of times that King needs to get fit and the club need to make sure he has the opportunity to do so - and Weso/Laczko plus one or two more.

I'll be checking on Gradel/Bori/Laczko stats over time too. Cos I don't give a toss who people are, how much they cost, where they come from, how many caps they've got or anything else. I prefer teams to be selected in terms of players' effect and contribution instead of politics, expediency and seniority.

Not that some will ever get a fair chance to impress anyway.

[Manwell Pablo]

Having checked and been quite surprised by the stats relating to Clemence I acknowledged exactly that only last week. Clemence's shots/assists leave him clearly ahead of anyone else. There's nothing ambiguous about it. And I am perfectly happy to stand by my principles on the matter.

I've also mentioned a couiple of times that King needs to get fit and the club need to make sure he has the opportunity to do so - and Weso/Laczko plus one or two more.

Jesus!? you feeling alright?

[Fez of Mahrez]

The vast majority of Sheehan's "near things" have come when he's been playing on the left wing. You'd expect him to be making things happen from there. Watford at home and Bristol City away to name just two - games Sheehan started on the left wing this season and got into plenty of shooting positions. And if he's had nineteen shots then why hasn't he scored from open play? Perhaps he needs to stop banging shots in from all angles if he never scores. Mattock has never played on the left wing this season so you're attempting to compare two players in completely different positions. One defender and one midfielder.

Sheehan doesn't get into shooting positions when he plays left-back.

Mattock impressed at the end of last season playing in the left wing position too, because he commits defenders and takes them on in a way that Sheehan's lack of pace renders it impossible for him to do so.

For all the bluster about the subject, it comes down to a few decent corners which we threaten from whenever anyone else takes them anyway because we have the height and strength to attack the ball - oh and a heavily deflected free kick against Watford and one admittedly brilliant free kick against Forest.

[Manwell Pablo]

The vast majority of Sheehan's "near things" have come when he's been playing on the left wing. You'd expect him to be making things happen from there. Watford at home and Bristol City away to name just two - games Sheehan started on the left wing this season and got into plenty of shooting positions. And if he's had nineteen shots then why hasn't he scored from open play? Perhaps he needs to stop banging shots in from all angles if he never scores. Mattock has never played on the left wing this season so you're attempting to compare two players in completely different positions. One defender and one midfielder.

Sheehan doesn't get into shooting positions when he plays left-back.

Mattock impressed at the end of last season playing in the left wing position too, because he commits defenders and takes them on in a way that Sheehan's lack of pace renders it impossible for him to do so.

For all the bluster about the subject, it comes down to a few decent corners which we threaten from whenever anyone else takes them anyway because we have the height and strength to attack the ball - oh and a heavily deflected free kick against Watford and one admittedly brilliant free kick against Forest.

Exactly right, keep looking at those stats Thracian go back down through the years. You will see players you have written off as awfull down the year finishing second and third highest on our assists lists.

[Manager]

For all the bluster about the subject, it comes down to a few decent corners which we threaten from whenever anyone else takes them anyway

When did we last score (or nearly score) from a corner?

Just a question

[Bert]

When did we last score (or nearly score) from a corner?

Just a question

Last goal from a corner was Barnsley at home.

[Manwell Pablo]

When did we last score (or nearly score) from a corner?

Just a question

Ipswitch. Stephen Clemance.

Next question.

EDIT: Free kicks, same thing.

[Manager]

Ipswitch. Stephen Clemance.

Next question.

Thanks

[Thracian]

The vast majority of Sheehan's "near things" have come when he's been playing on the left wing. You'd expect him to be making things happen from there. Watford at home and Bristol City away to name just two - games Sheehan started on the left wing this season and got into plenty of shooting positions. And if he's had nineteen shots then why hasn't he scored from open play? Perhaps he needs to stop banging shots in from all angles if he never scores. Mattock has never played on the left wing this season so you're attempting to compare two players in completely different positions. One defender and one midfielder.

Sheehan doesn't get into shooting positions when he plays left-back.

Mattock impressed at the end of last season playing in the left wing position too, because he commits defenders and takes them on in a way that Sheehan's lack of pace renders it impossible for him to do so.

For all the bluster about the subject, it comes down to a few decent corners which we threaten from whenever anyone else takes them anyway because we have the height and strength to attack the ball - oh and a heavily deflected free kick against Watford and one admittedly brilliant free kick against Forest.

Mattock played plenty on the left-wing last season and still didn't score/shoot much or create much. His final pass was invariably general rather than specific.

At least Sheehan did score twice and was pretty close twice, plus he had at least two shots blocked that might well have been goalbound.

In fact his ratio of shots on target to off is pretty sound and you've only got to watch him shooting/crossing in pre-kick-off to see what a powerful and accurate left foot he's got.

Sheehan can get into attacking positions from full-back, no question, but like King in midfield, I've mostly got the impression he's been asked to exercise caution - presumably because of our situation and our slow centre-backs. Mattock gets forward too but his end product has never been as productive as Sheehan's in all the football I've watched him.

[Manwell Pablo]

Last goal from a corner was Barnsley at home.

Are you sure Bert I swear blind one of our goals against Ipswitch was a corner.

Mattock played plenty on the left-wing last season and still didn't score/shoot much or create much. His final pass was invariably general rather than specific.

At least Sheehan did score twice and was pretty close twice, plus he had at least two shots blocked that might well have been goalbound.

In fact his ratio of shots on target to off is pretty sound and you've only got to watch him shooting/crossing in pre-kick-off to see what a powerful and accurate left foot he's got.

Sheehan can get into attacking positions from full-back, no question, but like King in midfield, I've mostly got the impression he's been asked to exercise caution - presumably because of our situation and our slow centre-backs. Mattock gets forward too but his end product has never been as productive as Sheehan's in all the football I've watched him.

No he ****ing didn't he played about six games tops

[TrickyTrev]

All you're proving to me is that if someone doesn't want to believe something, if someone wants to blind themselves to the truth, they will do so whatever is said.

Here is a very basic lesson for you in the problem of using statistics in subjective matters.

Democracy. A contested subject I hope you'll agree. It has something to do with government by the people for the people through elected representatives.

Stalin used to receive just less than 100% of votes in Soviet elections.

Now this would seem to make him a pretty democratic leader. But as we know, he wasn't, he was a very bad little man. Unless you consider the fact he was the only candidate, people had to vote, everything else that constitutes a democracy then your going to come to very wrong conclusions.

Now I'm not calling Alan Sheehan Joe Stalin. I'm just saying that if when trying to analyse how good a left back is, all your evidence is shots on goal, then your going to have a pretty damn incomplete picture. Everything else you have mentioned is subjective, which is fine, but thats my point. There is nothing wrong with admitting your arguement is based on opinion and subjectivety. So for the love of god let this silly "the facts speak for themselves" arguement go.

[Manager]

EDIT: Free kicks, same thing.

Not my question - was Barnsley

The Foxes doubled their advantage seven minutes later. Alan Sheehan whipped in a corner from the right, and Patrick Kisnorbo was on hand to fire home a trademark header from the edge of the Barnsley six-yard box.

Not much whipping going on lately

[Thracian]

Exactly right, keep looking at those stats Thracian go back down through the years. You will see players you have written off as awfull down the year finishing second and third highest on our assists lists.

Remind me who I've "written off" who has done well.

I've never "written off" Clemence, just been disappointed with his form at times cos I expected more.

Let's not forget too that, given reasonable numbers, there's a connection for assessment purposes between goals/shots/assists and the number of games played.

I'm still at a loss to remember which "good" players I've written off.

We've had so few, you'd think it would be hard to forget one.

[The People's Hero]

This has taken a turn for the bizarre since I've put Thracian on ignore.

I have to wait a few replies to second-guess what he might have said. Which begs the question why have I put him on ignore?

Because I can, that's why.

[Jimmy]

Are you sure Bert I swear blind one of our goals against Ipswitch was a corner.

No he ****ing didn't he played about six games tops

he played 5 games last season and 1 was his début at LEFT BACK, the others were away at tough grounds to win at and he played no small part in getting the points needed in those games

[Bert]

Are you sure Bert I swear blind one of our goals against Ipswitch was a corner.

Yeah mate, both from free kicks around the same position, i'm sure.

[Jimmy]

Yeah mate, both from free kicks around the same position, i'm sure.

yeah Clem took both 1 was a the goal Stearman got slated for celebrating, the other was Kisnorbo

[Manwell Pablo]

Remind me who I've "written off" who has done well.

I've never "written off" Clemence, just been disappointed with his form at times cos I expected more.

Let's not forget too that, given reasonable numbers, there's a connection for assessment purposes between goals/shots/assists and the number of games played.

I'm still at a loss to remember which "good" players I've written off.

We've had so few, you'd think it would be hard to forget one.

Gareth Williams is regularly up there on the assists. Sylla was third one season.