road safety in general

[Guest]

How long have you got?

As long as it takes.

[Hullfox]

As long as it takes.

Frankly, I don't think any of us has that long.

[Bryn]

Probably wading out of my depth here but surely lowering the taxes on fuel, which don't appear to be going to any great benefit, would mean none of us would have to pay the obscene prices we are doing for our fuel?

[Guest]

Probably wading out of my depth here but surely lowering the taxes on fuel, which don't appear to be going to any great benefit, would mean none of us would have to pay the obscene prices we are doing for our fuel?

Of course, however it would also mean paying higher taxes elsewhere.

[The People's Hero]

I'm looking forwards to Thracian's inevitable tirade raging against the evils of oil companies, the UK Government, traffic wardens, non-whites, lesbians and Bruno N'Gotty.

I might try to throw him off guard by completely agreeing with every he says, whilst he's in shock, you lot pounce on him, hold him down, tie him up and bundle him in to the back of the van, then we'll go and drive around Melton at 40mph for hours on end.

[Daggers]

Of course, however it would also mean paying higher taxes elsewhere.

Only if we keep paying people to stay at home while we make sure they have enough money for strong lager and fags.

As I came back from Sports Day Part Deux I was held up in traffic next to our local Job Centre/UB office (whatever they call it these days) - without exception, every person shuffling out clutching their benefits was smoking tabs.

Paying these idiots money so they can then slowly kill themselves while sending our money back to government via tobacco duty is awfully wasteful. Why don't we simply get knife-wielding criminals to stab them? Quick death rather than painful cancer, instant reduction of claimants, deterrent to future claims and all the knife-wielding thugs are in one place and easily catchable afterwards.

I'm a genius - they should give me my own quango.

[Finnegan]

I'm looking forwards to Thracian's inevitable tirade raging against the evils of oil companies, the UK Government, traffic wardens, non-whites, lesbians and Bruno N'Gotty.

Not to mention the Chinese over-fishing the world's seas and every Traffic Warden / Parking Attendent being a one-time member of Hitler Youth.

[AoWW]

Only if we keep paying people to stay at home while we make sure they have enough money for strong lager and fags.

As I came back from Sports Day Part Deux I was held up in traffic next to our local Job Centre/UB office (whatever they call it these days) - without exception, every person shuffling out clutching their benefits was smoking tabs.

Paying these idiots money so they can then slowly kill themselves while sending our money back to government via tobacco duty is awfully wasteful. Why don't we simply get knife-wielding criminals to stab them? Quick death rather than painful cancer, instant reduction of claimants, deterrent to future claims and all the knife-wielding thugs are in one place and easily catchable afterwards.

I'm a genius - they should give me my own quango.

*Note to self: never spark up when Daggers is in the vicinity. If I must, get ready to run!*

Or does the fact that I'm not claiming benefits but killing myself with my own hard-earned money going up in smoke make me exempt from such a fate?

[The People's Hero]

Not to mention the Chinese over-fishing the world's seas and every Traffic Warden / Parking Attendent being a one-time member of Hitler Youth.

Oh - yeah, those bloody Chinese and their outrageous expectation that they should be able to feed themselves. Bastards.

Next they'll be using the planets' water to wash, it's sunlight to warm them and living upon it's very soil!

[Daggers]

Loads of fun and laughs to be had at Birmingham's

Summer Traffic Warden Camp for Kids

Book your kids in early to avoid disappointment

[Finnegan]

Oh, Daggers.

[Thracian]

Of course, however it would also mean paying higher taxes elsewhere.

We already pay higher taxes in real terms than ever before.

Gordon Brown has to reduce that tax on moral grounds for a start because it is so unfair.

For a Labour prime minister to impose a tax that penalises the people whose hourly work drives this country leaves me disgusted.

Everyone suffers in the end but it isn't the bosses with their accountants nor the poor who cannot afford a car in any case who bear the brunt it is the general workforce who simply find their hard-earned wages increasingly fail to pay their bills, while they have their jobs, of course.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought freedom of movement was an important part of human rights legislation. Well there's no point having freedom of movement if people cannot afford to get their car out of the garage and there isn't a suitably available bus or train service to be seen.

What we're getting is some people's freedom of movement being more equal to others including the politicians who are so smug in these so-difficult times that their own offer of an example is to say they should have massively inflation-busting pay rises and no reduction in perks that they shouldn't have had in the first place.

Gordon Brown wanted to be Prime Minister in fact he was obsessed with the idea.

He vowed to serve this country and the people in it.

Well if he doesn't reduce the tax he'll not be Prime Minister for long and I doubt that any independent biographer would say that he served our country in that role.

If he steps back from imposing his intended 2p increase in fuel tax he'll simply be acknowledging his guilty conscience and prove my point that he has to go in a different direction.

And that direction should be to get electric cars on the road even earlier than the 2020 projection. It is the route we should have gone years ago,

Then, instead of patronising calls to eat rather than waste our food - something anyone with a proper conscience would do - he should make some harsh choices, stop wasting money, and give us the transport system which will enable this nation to remain fully mobile and to set about earning the revenue which will take it forward.

A transport system which would allow the millions of potential tourists to come here from the thriving economies of Russia, China and India to marvel at one of the entertainment, historical and innovation centres of the world, if only we'd set about building it.

We've built so many houses, flats and warehouses we don't know what to do with them all but a thriving nation also needs things to do, places to go and the means of doing it.

We need to make ourselves as near to self sufficient as possible again. We need to harvest the wind and the waves.

Not by pinching the workforce's money and destroying their incentives, but by using an acceptable share of their earnings properly and conscienciously, which surely doesn't include waging expensive wars in places we don't belong.

Brown needs to heed his own words about waste and act on them.

Not just over food but on warfare and so many other less dramatic areas of unnecessary and unproductive spending.

[Guest]

Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought freedom of movement was an important part of human rights legislation. Well there's no point having freedom of movement if people cannot afford to get their car out of the garage and there isn't a suitably available bus or train service to be seen.

Actually, freedom of movement forms the basis of the four fundamental freedoms of the The European Union. The four are:-

Goods

Services

Capital

Workers

They concern the movement of the above within the Community, and have bugger all to do with transportation.

There is liberty of the person, which is an important part of English law, but this is to protect against unwanted invasion on people and/or property.

There is no right to owning a car. The ability to own a car is something that you have to earn, I am afraid.

[Hullfox]

I'm a genius - they should give me my own quango.

I'm not sure a Renault would suit you Dags.

[Hullfox]

Everyone suffers in the end but it isn't the bosses with their accountants nor the poor who cannot afford a car in any case who bear the brunt it is the general workforce who simply find their hard-earned wages increasingly fail to pay their bills, while they have their jobs, of course.

Well as an employer I'd like to say how wrong you are.

The costs of keeping my vehicles fuelled up has doubled just as yours has. The nature of my customer base means that I cannot pass every increase on down the chain either. The costs are met fairly and squarely out of my pocket.

Please do not make blanket statements which quite clearly are not correct.

[Thracian]

Well as an employer I'd like to say how wrong you are.

The costs of keeping my vehicles fuelled up has doubled just as yours has. The nature of my customer base means that I cannot pass every increase on down the chain either. The costs are met fairly and squarely out of my pocket.

Please do not make blanket statements which quite clearly are not correct.

I'm sure you have good accountants and friendly distributors of filtered cooking oil in Hull just as everywhere else!

Seriously I've perhaps expressed my point badly.

It was not to suggest that business leaders haven't suffered. They have and well I know it.

New businesses are particularly vulnerable but established business leaders often have some way to fall before they are in the position of ordinary wage earners who really cannot make their earnings cover outgoings nor afford to keep running their cars at all, not even on borrowed money or by cashing in assets.

My accountant son says he's lost two customers to the crisis so far but as long as two years ago was advising clients on changing the emphasis of their businesses to anticipate coming problems and outlining ways of planning for troubled times and of cutting costs quickly and effectively should orders and cash-flow suffer.

Individuals won't have had that help and people I've spoken to are slowly admitting that their debts are mounting and they really don't know how to turn things around.

For a labour government, or any supposedly caring government, to wilfully impose extortionate fuel taxes when they are already taking more tax than any government in modern history, and when people are struggling anyway, is indefensible to me.

And, if it goes on, the consequences will be dire.

What we need more than anything now is positive leadership, someone with the dynanism to say, okay, some gates are closing but we will set out straight away to open others. Basically we need a "can do, will do" philosophy not patronising lectures in frugality.

That won't be done by grinding either businesses or individuals into the floor. Because all that will do is destroy jobs and, in turn, affect people's incentive and confidence.

[Thracian]

Actually, freedom of movement forms the basis of the four fundamental freedoms of the The European Union. The four are:-

Goods

Services

Capital

Workers

They concern the movement of the above within the Community, and have bugger all to do with transportation.

There is liberty of the person, which is an important part of English law, but this is to protect against unwanted invasion on people and/or property.

There is no right to owning a car. The ability to own a car is something that you have to earn, I am afraid.

Well, you say that, but if European Union residents are guaranteed the theoretical "right to freely move within the EU's internal borders" will you explain to me exactly how they might be expected to do that if their national government leaves them so skint they cannot go anywhere except by foot or bike?

Or do you suggest that someone of, say 75, could walk?

Our government has effectively made it difficult or even impossible for some people to afford to fill up their cars. As you know and I know there are no train or bus services in many areas.

So, I'd ask again, how can the the Freedom of Movement principle apply if, in practical terms, an individual can't move far from their local area?

How far do we go from here before it is only the relatively rich who can afford to drive, only the relatively rich who can pay for a train ticket? Only the relatively rich who have Freedom of Movement?

Surely if that situation is promoted by the government they'll be deliberately preventing steadily increasing numbers of the population from being able to move freely within their own country let alone any other.

How can that be right?

Or should the legislation be written that people "have the right to move freely providing their government doesn't prevent them doing so by denying them any practical means of travel?"

[Guest]

So, I'd ask again, how can the the Freedom of Movement principle apply if, in practical terms, an individual can't move far from their local area?

Because it is not aimed at people's fundamental rights, it's an economic right in the sense that goods, services, capital and people (which is workers) are free to move about the Union. You have the right to live and work any where in the EU, how you go about getting there is up to you.

The EU came about through an economic aim of a common market, albeit with a political bias. It has no concern whatsoever with "human rights". The European Convention on Human Rights (the British had the biggest say in the drafting of this, by the way) is a product of the Council of Europe, a different organisation, and I'm afraid that doesn't give a right to own a car either.

[Zingari]

we should all have rocket propelled back packs by now

they said on tomorrows world in 1976 we would have them in 20 years or so

[Thracian]

Because it is not aimed at people's fundamental rights, it's an economic right in the sense that goods, services, capital and people (which is workers) are free to move about the Union. You have the right to live and work any where in the EU, how you go about getting there is up to you.

The EU came about through an economic aim of a common market, albeit with a political bias. It has no concern whatsoever with "human rights". The European Convention on Human Rights (the British had the biggest say in the drafting of this, by the way) is a product of the Council of Europe, a different organisation, and I'm afraid that doesn't give a right to own a car either.

Yes, I get it. Work dries up in France, workforce has the right to move to Bulgaria. But that's not much use if they don't have the means or opportunity to move beyond their borders as has been the situation in some countries who are not in the EU.

As I say, how far do we have to go before we get to movement for the elite only?

Cos it seems to me that particular paralysis has already started, albeit very slowly. Not just with fuel tax but with the more subtle policies designed to push more and more people off the roads like the ever more virulent and punitive totting up system.

Of course I'm playing devil's advocate but our fuel duty is obscene and it won't have any significant impact on global warming, not with the way other economies are developing.

Electric vehicles, and later, perhaps, even hydrogen-driven vehicles are the way forward on roads, not grasping, economy-stiffling tax hikes that have made Gordon Brown's name spell "shit" even in Scotland where swathes of the population view, or at least viewed, the Red Flag as holy.

Some of us have wanted environmentally clean and independently-produced means of locomotion for decades. But politicians preferred to bleed the consumer of tax while all-but ignoring the developing problems being caused.

[The People's Hero]

There should be a separate thread where Thracian puts the world to rights.

Freedom of movement and whether you can afford to fill up your car are two separate things, Tony, as well you know it. Perhaps if you cut back on the Barbars a little bit, you might be able to fill your car up.

You are the first to label everyone else as left-wing, namby pampy liberal nomarks whenever we suggest that, ya'know maybe racism is bad and that drink-driving is also bad (outrageous things like that) but as soon as it comes down to the point of people having the ability to move about the country, you get on your left-wing, people-loving, self-righteous steed propped up with ill-thought out sweeping statements and illogical assumptions, as evidenced here.

It's time your fair mount put it's blinkers on, had a few sugar cubes and jogged on.

[Guest]

Of course I'm playing devil's advocate but our fuel duty is obscene and it won't have any significant impact on global warming, not with the way other economies are developing.

Just wait until road tolls and charges are brought in then. You'll burst a blood vessel the day that happens!

[Bellend Sebastian]

Now I'm not saying for a second that they shouldn't do it, but from a deterrence point of view I'm not convinced this will have any effect:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7506668.stm

Obviously, from a justice point of view, the families of victims will feel better about the whole thing if the perpetrator gets a lengthy sentence, but that's a bit of a shutting-the-door-after-the-horse-has-bolted sort of thing, isn't it? I'm not convinced that even the worst drivers go out on the roads and drive badly because they think they'll escape a stiff sentence if they kill someone, they do it because they have an inflated sense of their own ability behind the wheel and an underdeveloped concept of risk.

I personally think more would be gained by dishing out harsher punishments for the stuff that makes driving dangerous - using a mobile etc, and getting more traffic coppers onto the road to actually catch people doing stupid things before they get a chance to kill someone

[Thracian]

Just wait until road tolls and charges are brought in then. You'll burst a blood vessel the day that happens!

It will be even worse when they start putting restraints on anyone who turns an ignition key.

[Thracian]

There should be a separate thread where Thracian puts the world to rights.

Freedom of movement and whether you can afford to fill up your car are two separate things, Tony, as well you know it. Perhaps if you cut back on the Barbars a little bit, you might be able to fill your car up.

You are the first to label everyone else as left-wing, namby pampy liberal nomarks whenever we suggest that, ya'know maybe racism is bad and that drink-driving is also bad (outrageous things like that) but as soon as it comes down to the point of people having the ability to move about the country, you get on your left-wing, people-loving, self-righteous steed propped up with ill-thought out sweeping statements and illogical assumptions, as evidenced here.

It's time your fair mount put it's blinkers on, had a few sugar cubes and jogged on.

I'm not actually sure I couldn't run the car on Barbars. It's a thought.

But yes, I agree racism/sexism is bad. In fact I think it is shocking that anyone should lose a job simply because they are white rather than black or female.

You didn't sound too pleased yourelf the other week judging by your comment on Harriet Harman but you've soon reverted back to kind. Safety in numbers I guess.