Sparky Posted 15 February 2009 Posted 15 February 2009 Proud of the performance and fight from our boys . Not sure i expected us to come out and attack the Welsh as we did and despite a defeat im hoping we continue to take the same approach . Wales are a great side at the minute and with the flair they had in the past they now have the discipline and ruthlessnes under Gatland and Edwards . Me and the lads were talking yesterday about the starting 15 for the lions tour, and we had 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14 and argubally 15 as Welshmen
Finnegan Posted 15 February 2009 Author Posted 15 February 2009 I would have Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones and our entire back row of Ryan Jones, Andy Powell and Martyn Williams at the moment from the forwards. From the backs I'd have Lee Byrne absolutely nailed on along with Shane Williams I'd have a fight between Roberts and Henson to play beside a rejuvinated O'Driscoll and would probably have Mike Phillips as a serious contender for nine. I'd have Stephen Jones in on current form and would take Leigh Halfpenny for the squad, though whether or not I'd start him is questionable. If Kearney is as good on the wing as he is at fullback I'd have him or Bowe looking for a spot. Not sure where I'd fit an Englishman in the backs except possibly Care if he was fit?
Sparky Posted 15 February 2009 Posted 15 February 2009 I would have Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones and our entire back row of Ryan Jones, Andy Powell and Martyn Williams at the moment from the forwards. From the backs I'd have Lee Byrne absolutely nailed on along with Shane Williams I'd have a fight between Roberts and Henson to play beside a rejuvinated O'Driscoll and would probably have Mike Phillips as a serious contender for nine. I'd have Stephen Jones in on current form and would take Leigh Halfpenny for the squad, though whether or not I'd start him is questionable.If Kearney is as good on the wing as he is at fullback I'd have him or Bowe looking for a spot. Not sure where I'd fit an Englishman in the backs except possibly Care if he was fit? Id take Kearney in front of Byrne at the moment , think Kearney is a star in the making . Vickory will start at 3 with Mcgeechan backing his clubman , at the minute id go 1. Gethin Jenkins 2. Jerry Flannery 3. Phil Vickory 4. Paul O Connell 5. Alun Wyn Jones 6. Ryan Jones (VC) 7. Martyn Williams 8. Andy Powell 9. Mike Phillips 10. Stephen Jones / Ronan O Gara 11. Shane Williams 12. Gavin Henson (Fitness depending) 13. Brian O Driscoll © 14. Leigh Halfpenny 15. Rob Kearney Englishmen to travel - Ellis, Sackey, Armatage and personally id take Croft even if he aint a England starter at the moment
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 I swear he's doing this on purpose. When is Jerry Guscott right about anything? I really, really wish he'd stop. It's making me very nervous.
Father Ted Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Id take Kearney in front of Byrne at the moment , think Kearney is a star in the making . Vickory will start at 3 with Mcgeechan backing his clubman , at the minute id go1. Gethin Jenkins 2. Jerry Flannery 3. Phil Vickory 4. Paul O Connell 5. Alun Wyn Jones 6. Ryan Jones (VC) 7. Martyn Williams 8. Andy Powell 9. Mike Phillips 10. Stephen Jones / Ronan O Gara 11. Shane Williams 12. Gavin Henson (Fitness depending) 13. Brian O Driscoll © 14. Leigh Halfpenny 15. Rob Kearney Englishmen to travel - Ellis, Sackey, Armatage and personally id take Croft even if he aint a England starter at the moment I would have: 1: Adam Jones 2: Jerry Flannery 3: Andrew Sheridan 4: Paul O'Connell 5: Alun Wyn Jones 6: Lewis Moody 7: Martyn Williams 8: Heaslip 9: Harry Ellis 10: Ronan O'Gara 11: Shane Williams 12: Roberts 13: Brian O'Driscoll 14: Robert Kearney 15: Lee Byrne Notable other squad members: Mears, O'Callaghan, Wallace, Ryan Jones, Andy Powell, Phillips, Hook, Halfpenny, Henson, Armitage, Sackey, D'Arcy
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Your pack and half backs are weak, imo. I don't care how bias you are towards the English, Harry Ellis is third choice at best and Ronan O'Gara will never be consistently world class at international level. Especially if you're going to the Southern Hemisphere - the second he's given a bit of a scare he's out of the game.
Father Ted Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Your pack and half backs are weak, imo.I don't care how bias you are towards the English, Harry Ellis is third choice at best and Ronan O'Gara will never be consistently world class at international level. Especially if you're going to the Southern Hemisphere - the second he's given a bit of a scare he's out of the game. Who would you have in the pack then? And if I'm totally honest, I rate Ellis higher than Phillips and on-par with Reddan. O'Gara would be in the for the kicking just as much for his overall play. I really don't rate Stephen Jones and I reckon Hook should be playing ahead of him for Wales.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Ellis is more audacious than Phillips - he's like an ill-disciplined, more error prone version of Dwayne Peel. But Phillips doesn't make as many mistakes, is twice as strong (and tall[!]), is a more powerful runner and is far, far better defensively. Phillips' size alone gives him such a boost, particularly when the team are on the back foot (which they will be against the Saffers.) Reddan isn't even the Irish first choice at the moment. Ellis wouldn't even be the English first choice if not for injuries. If he goes at all, you've got almost 0 chance of him starting a test. Any number of pundits, fans and coaches aren't all wrong just to make you right, sunshine.
Father Ted Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Ellis is more audacious than Phillips - he's like an ill-disciplined, more error prone version of Dwayne Peel. But Phillips doesn't make as many mistakes, is twice as strong (and tall[!]), is a more powerful runner and is far, far better defensively. Phillips' size alone gives him such a boost, particularly when the team are on the back foot (which they will be against the Saffers.) Reddan isn't even the Irish first choice at the moment. Ellis wouldn't even be the English first choice if not for injuries. If he goes at all, you've got almost 0 chance of him starting a test. Any number of pundits, fans and coaches aren't all wrong just to make you right, sunshine. Okay, Phillips is tall, but all of the world's best scrum-halves are midgets like LD3. Obviously Ellis wouldn't be playing had Danny Care not got injured but Ellis has taken his chance excellently and his current form is top notch. He seems to have been forgotten since he damaged his knee but now he is back and will only get better.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Exactly... Phillips is tall and strong and the rest aren't. Do you not see that that gives him a fairly large advantage? Rugby is an extremely physical sport, if you've got two players of similar footballing ability but one is a midget and the other has extreme physical presence both defensively and as a runner then the latter is going to be picked, it's obvious. The reason the Southern Hemisphere teams are so far ahead of us is because they're throwing off the old rugby stereotypes of positional size and are developing behemoths in every position that are fitter, stronger and faster than the North. Phillips is a prototype for a new school of thought. At the end of the day what you're arguing is irrelevant. Miracles will have to be worked for Ellis to be taken ahead of numerous others, I don't really care if you "rate him higher than Phillips" the fact of the matter is that any number of pro analysts, full time fans, players and coaches disagree with you and amongst them will no doubt be the Lions selectors. When even Jerry "Yes The Game's All Over Here At Half Time At Wembley, Wales Have No Chance" Guscott, Lord of all blind English Bias, would pick Stephen Jones and Mike Phillips as his starting Lions half-backs ahead of anything wearing a Rose then you know you're arguing a lost cause.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Pretty much, yeah. Wouldn't start with him though either.
JimmyK Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Phillips is tall and strong and the rest aren't. Do you not see that that gives him a fairly large advantage? Strength is obviously necessary in any position but I think taller automatically = better in all positions. Shane Williams anyone?
Alexikokopops Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 When even Jerry "Yes The Game's All Over Here At Half Time At Wembley, Wales Have No Chance" Guscott, Lord of all blind English Bias, would pick Stephen Jones and Mike Phillips as his starting Lions half-backs ahead of anything wearing a Rose then you know you're arguing a lost cause.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Strength is obviously necessary in any position but I think taller automatically = better in all positions. Shane Williams anyone? I think you're being pedantic here for the sakes of it. "Power" comes with strength and weight combined, taller is generally going to mean heavier unless you're packing beef and you wouldn't play Adam Jones on the wing, would you? Shane Williams is fantastic - but if someone had his agility, pace and footballing skills but was a bigger defensive presence as well then you'd pick them ahead of him. Granted that'd be expecting a minor god, haha, so Shane's safe for now. I'm not saying Phillips is better because he's taller. I'm saying Phillips is (in the eyes of most) as good a scrum half as Ellis only he's a hell of a lot more powerful. This makes him superior.
Uncle Albert Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Stephen Jones shouldnt be the Lions fly half. Weaklink in a super Wales side, how James Hook isnt first choice I'll never know.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Hook isn't on form and Jones is. His kicking has been average of late but he's great at breaking the gain line and there's few better outsides halves in the world at keeping things steady and solid. He isn't flair but he's no weak link.
Uncle Albert Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Hook isn't on form and Jones is. His kicking has been average of late but he's great at breaking the gain line and there's few better outsides halves in the world at keeping things steady and solid. He isn't flair but he's no weak link. Personally out of the Welsh back row I think he is the weak link, Byrne's kicking has been alot more consistent than Jones'. I just feel that Hook is a much better International player than Jones and thats saying something about Hook because Jones is quality as his career shows. I would love to see Hook in the Welsh backrow then I would say you are the complete package.
Father Ted Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Exactly... Phillips is tall and strong and the rest aren't. Do you not see that that gives him a fairly large advantage? Rugby is an extremely physical sport, if you've got two players of similar footballing ability but one is a midget and the other has extreme physical presence both defensively and as a runner then the latter is going to be picked, it's obvious. The reason the Southern Hemisphere teams are so far ahead of us is because they're throwing off the old rugby stereotypes of positional size and are developing behemoths in every position that are fitter, stronger and faster than the North. Phillips is a prototype for a new school of thought. At the end of the day what you're arguing is irrelevant. Miracles will have to be worked for Ellis to be taken ahead of numerous others, I don't really care if you "rate him higher than Phillips" the fact of the matter is that any number of pro analysts, full time fans, players and coaches disagree with you and amongst them will no doubt be the Lions selectors. When even Jerry "Yes The Game's All Over Here At Half Time At Wembley, Wales Have No Chance" Guscott, Lord of all blind English Bias, would pick Stephen Jones and Mike Phillips as his starting Lions half-backs ahead of anything wearing a Rose then you know you're arguing a lost cause. But the whole point of having a small scrum half is to be nippy around the rucks. When I've played rugby, our scrum-half is tiny, yet such a good tackler but also so skillful with ball in hand. I mean, would you rather have a big hairy bastard running straight at you or a little shit who will just sell you a dummy. I'd rather have the first one to be honest.
Sparky Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 Personally out of the Welsh back row I think he is the weak link, Byrne's kicking has been alot more consistent than Jones'. I just feel that Hook is a much better International player than Jones and thats saying something about Hook because Jones is quality as his career shows. I would love to see Hook in the Welsh backrow then I would say you are the complete package. The back row are both flankers and the number 8 mate . 6, 7 and 8 . Hook and S Jones are both fly halfs of which the along with the scrum half make up the half backs
Father Ted Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 The back row are both flankers and the number 8 mate . 6, 7 and 8 . Hook and S Jones are both fly halfs of which the along with the scrum half make up the half backs 9 & 10 are half-backs.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 Albert: Like I said, you have to factor in both form and experience. Hook still makes schoolboy errors, I'd personally draft him in for the Italy game to give him some game time but I doubt we will - it's too tight. Hook will be world class, absolutely but he's still got most of his career ahead of him. Right now Wales need solidarity and a bit of consistency and we draw that from Jones. Last major contribution of Hooks' was to throw away a memorable victory against the Saffers with a wreckless, rookie-mistake pass. Ted: I'm not really sure what it is you don't get. I'm pretty sure you're arguing for the sakes of it. It's purely objective so I can't really give you evidence to show you why you're chatting bollocks - but the fact that nearly the entire rugby world is on my side sort of speaks volumes. Ellis is ill-disciplined, overly adventurous, injury prone, and prone to lapses in concentration. Phillips is almost as good a footballer, is more consistent, slightly less wreckless, stronger, far better defensively, probably almost as fast but far more powerful in his running and most importantly is on MUCH better form. It isn't Welsh bias at all, I'm a Scarlets fan with a soft spot for the Tigers - I quite like Ellis and Phillips plays for the enemy! The fact of the matter is Phillips > Ellis, especially on current form. The end.
Bert Posted 16 February 2009 Posted 16 February 2009 I love how Finners keeps referring back to "personally" so he doesn't seem arrogant on the rugby situation. Top man.
Finnegan Posted 16 February 2009 Author Posted 16 February 2009 I love how Finners keeps referring back to "personally" so he doesn't seem arrogant on the rugby situation. Top man.
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