Is this really necessary?

[Fosse Boy]

I can understand it that's the point. How this widens democracy I don't understand.

If there was a bunch of English nationalists insisting that all official documents were produced in ancient anglo saxon then the people on here defending this nonsense would ridicule them and quite rightly call them racists.

Like I've said earlier it's boll0x.

But can the audience that the document's targeting understand standard English in the same way that you can? If the answer is no then the language used in the document is obviously pivotal in communicating its message to them.

[Webbo]

But can the audience that the document's targeting understand standard English in the same way that you can? If the answer is no then the language used in the document is obviously pivotal in communicating its message to them.

Don't they teach English in Scottish schools?

[Fosse Boy]

Don't they teach English in Scottish schools?

Not the point.

While standard English may be the language taught in Scottish classrooms, it won't be the language that kids are brought up speaking at home with their family and friends. They could speak Scots when from when they wake up until the school bell rings, use standard English in the classroom, and as soon as they school day has ended they'll go back to their native tongue again. Technically it makes them bilingual (depending on whether or not you regard Scots as a different language to English of course). Therefore if the majority of people use the Scots variety outside of formal settings (like at school) and it's the language used in their day to day lives, why shouldn't their government accept and recognise that by using it in its literature?

[Webbo]

Not the point.

While standard English may be the language taught in Scottish classrooms, it won't be the language that kids are brought up speaking at home with their family and friends. They could speak Scots when from when they wake up until the school bell rings, use standard English in the classroom, and as soon as they school day has ended they'll go back to their native tongue again. Technically it makes them bilingual (depending on whether or not you regard Scots as a different language to English of course). Therefore if the majority of people use the Scots variety outside of formal settings (like at school) and it's the language used in their day to day lives, why shouldn't their government accept and recognise that by using it in its literature?

So they could understand English if they wanted to, but a minority choose not to so we all have to spend money to pander to nationalist extremists?

[Finnegan]

So they could understand English if they wanted to, but a minority choose not to so we all have to spend money to pander to nationalist extremists?

lol they're nationalist extremist because they want to preserve what they see to be their language and culture?

Never, ever have the audacity to tell me I'm speaking rubbish again. Whether or not you believe releasing official texts in Scots is excessive, if you really believe that you're an absolute plank.

Dear me.

[Fosse Boy]

So they could understand English if they wanted to, but a minority choose not to so we all have to spend money to pander to national extremists?

No, that's not the case at all. If Scots is their native language and not English, then what right do we as a society have to say that they should be speaking the same way as English people do just because it conveniences the majority to do so? Just because they may be a minority language community doesn't mean that their tongue is any less important than ours.

All the Scottish government are doing is accepting and recognising that the Scots variety may stand alone as an independent living language, rather than pandering to the view held throughout history by those in authority that it (along with many regional varieties in the UK) should merely be dismissed as a "bad" or "stupid" dialect of English.

[Webbo]

lol they're nationalist extremist because they want to preserve what they see to be their language and culture?

Never, ever have the audacity to tell me I'm speaking rubbish again. Whether or not you believe releasing official texts in Scots is excessive, if you really believe that you're an absolute plank.

Dear me.

Get over it Finners that was over a year ago.

Excessive isn't the word I'd use. as I've said before in this thread it's boll0x.

[Finnegan]

No, that's not the case at all. If Scots is their native language and not English, then what right do we as a society have to say that they should be speaking the same way as English people do just because it conveniences the majority to do so? Just because they may be a minority language community doesn't mean that their tongue is any less important than ours.

All the Scottish government are doing is accepting and recognising that the Scots variety may stand alone as an independent living language, rather than pandering to the view held throughout history by those in authority that it (along with many regional varieties in the UK) should merely be dismissed as a "bad" or "stupid" dialect of English.

Exactly. While I'm about as far as you can get from a right-wing, British bigot; if local councils in North London spend tax payers money on printing posters and literature in Somali, Turkish, Polish, etc - imported languages - why is it then some great tragedy if a local Scots government caters to the wishes of those who speak an ancient, native language?

Whether or not you, as an Englishman living hundreds of miles away, thinks it's a waste of coin and ink is probably of fuck all consequence to them and rightly so. They are, you have to imagine, both preserving their demographic and probably also trying to garner a bit of support from those easily swung by traditionalist sentiment.

It really is ultimately harmless. The Irish likely spend millions every year in a desperate bid to cling on to Gaelige and it's still going down the pan and still a vast, vast majority of the Irish speak English, arguably rendering it "useless." It won't stop them and rightly so. There's nothing dangerous and nothing divisive about language, exploring it and being thankful for the many hundreds there are around the globe.

[Fosse Boy]

There's nothing dangerous and nothing divisive about language, exploring it and being thankful for the many hundreds there are around the globe.

Can I use that quote in my next essay?

[Finnegan]

Can I use that quote in my next essay?

Be my guest!

What is your degree again?

[Fosse Boy]

Be my guest!

What is your degree again?

English Language aka Dosser Studies with Advanced Drinking.

[Finnegan]

Judging by some of the things you've discussed on here I'm guessing English Language is actually more British language?

[Fosse Boy]

Judging by some of the things you've discussed on here I'm guessing English Language is actually more British language?

English in this instance is describing the language and not the ethnic group.

So yeah, I basically study types of English spoken all over the world. Think I've got a lecture on Welsh English on Tuesday morning funnily enough.

[Finnegan]

English in this instance is describing the language and not the ethnic group.

So yeah, I basically study types of English spoken all over the world. Think I've got a lecture on Welsh English on Tuesday morning funnily enough.

Easy enough! Just slap "mun" on the end of everything, if it's good it's "tidy", throw a few unnecessary "by"s in the middle of "other there" and "over here" and you're basically halfway Welsh.

[davieG]

Is any official government or legal document written in a form that the average 'English' speaking person speaks or understands, certainly not the ones I come across. I find most official documents I read I have to read several times to get to a point where I think I understand what they're saying.

[Finnegan]

Is any official government or legal document written in a form that the average 'English' speaking person speaks or understands, certainly not the ones I come across. I find most official documents I read I have to read several times to get to a point where I think I understand what they're saying.

Ah, now, you see that's a different argument and one I agree with you on. The use of High English in a lot of official documentation to enforce a sense of exclusivity is genuinely intriguing when looking at class and the maintenance of hierarchy.

[Fosse Boy]

Yeah it's been that way since the days of the Normans, when French was the high language of government and the ruling classes. Eventually standard English became the prestige dialect in this country and it's remained so to the present day.

[ozleicester]

The Government just needs to spend the funding on producing TV shows,

Thanks to Gavin and Stacey I am now fluent in Welsh

"oh, oh, Whats occurring? lush."

Sorted!

Now, given my previous studies of groundskeeper Willie, i have Scottish and Welsh.

I am now watching the Swedish Chef so, a couple more days of that... and im pretty much ready to travel the world

[Finnegan]

The Government just needs to spend the funding on producing TV shows,

Thanks to Gavin and Stacey I am now fluent in Welsh

"oh, oh, Whats occurring? lush."

Sorted!

Now, given my previous studies of groundskeeper Willie, i have Scottish and Welsh.

I am now watching the Swedish Chef so, a couple more days of that... and im pretty much ready to travel the world

Ooh dee bershki, und een der bershki! Oh hoh ho ho!

[Vacamion]

We want tae mak siccar that as mony folk as possible...

As a linguist who lives in Glasgow (posting on Burns night!) I can confidently assert that there are more Urdu speakers in Scotland than people who would say "mak siccar" for "make sure".

Maybe farmers in rural Aberdeenshire might say it, but probably not even there, either.

Scottish accents are all different. People at opposite ends of the 50 miles between Glasgow and Edinburgh speak in an entirely different way, use different dialect words and the "music" of the way they speak is entirely different. Imagine the difference between Stranraer and Thurso (an 8 hour drive).

Any official attempt to capture some imagined common "Scots" accent (or "dialect" or "language") is doomed to inadequacy.

I reckon that most Sweaty Socks I know would conclude that the promotion of Scots as a language like this is down to the same tartan-painted, shortbread-eating Whoopsies who have made the government of Scotland a single issue affair, to the detriment of Scotland and its people.

Rant over.

[Finnegan]

this is down to the same tartan-painted, shortbread-eating Whoopsies who have made the government of Scotland a single issue affair

Oh aye, I certainly don't particularly disagree with that. As I said, it's certainly to some extent an attempt to garner support for the more sentimental members of the community.

[Fosse Boy]

You're never going to be able to capture the way that everyone in Scotland speaks obviously, but perhaps in doing this they're just trying to codify some form of standard Scots, as opposed to capturing in writing what's spoken specifically in Glasgow or Edinburgh for example?

[Guest Bilo]

I'm just awaiting the inevitable government press release in chav.

Or to translate;

I is w8in 4 da word from Numba 10 dat dey is speakin our lingo innit.

[AoWW]

I'm just awaiting the inevitable government press release in chav.

Or to translate;

I is w8in 4 da word from Numba 10 dat dey is speakin our lingo innit.

There really is a job out there for Tha Carter!

[Jordan]

Unnecessary? Get tae fook! Just enjoy the awesomeness of every piece of information from the Scottish Parliament being written as if from Robert Burns' pen.