EDM in Parliament on Safe Standing

[Guest Bilo]

A rather long speech but well worth a read nonetheless. A great argument in favour of safe standing at football and healthy debate will hopefully be sparked by this motion, with some of the tired and debunked arguments against standing will finally be shot down in flames as they deserve to be. Let's hope that this is a step in the right direction and the feelings of fans are finally listened to.

Don Foster MP for Bath introduces the Safe Standing Bill

Tue 7th Dec 2010

Don Foster MP for Bath introduced the Safe Standing Bill to the Commons on the 7th December 2010. This bill would allow standing at football grounds. Here is a copy of his speech to the Commons:

"Mr Speaker, I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to give all football clubs the freedom to build, or maintain existing, safe standing sections in their stadia if they choose;

to establish minimum safety criteria that must be met for standing sections in football stadia;

and for connected purposes."

Mr Speaker, any debate on football stadia will inevitably - and rightly - raise the spectre of the tragic events at Hillsborough in 1989 and those, such as that at the Heysel stadium in 1985, that preceded it.

No debate about this topic can avoid addressing these tragedies and their repercussions, which are still resonating with us even now.

The events of 15 April 1989, which saw the deaths of 96 people and the injury of hundreds more, were uniquely horrific. An entire city has struggled with that day's trauma ever since.

The annual memorial services held at Anfield and elsewhere show that that day is still keenly felt and will never be forgotten. Nor should it be.

Nor should anyone believe that, in raising the possibility of introducing safe standing in football grounds now, I am critical of the actions that were taken 20 years ago to outlaw standing at matches in the top two football leagues.

I am in certainly not calling for a return to the old style terraces. They were poorly designed, overcrowded, poorly monitored, and entirely unsuitable for the purposes for which they were used.

A return to that world would be a retrograde, and wholly unacceptable, step.

Rather, today I am proposing something very different - another step forward, to more modern, safe football stands; stands that provide what fans want but do so with maximum safety.

After all standing is not inherently unsafe.

Lord Taylor's report into Hillsborough cited many reasons why the disaster occurred.

The fact the crowd was standing was not one of those reasons.

Rather, it happened as a result of:

? Gross overcrowding

? A lack of concern for the safety and comfort of spectators,

? A lack of awareness of existing safety regulation, and

? The poor design of the old style terraces

The disaster happened because of a culture of negligence, not because standing is inherently unsafe.

Lord Taylor recommended all-seater stadia because, he argued;

a) seats establish individual areas for individual fans and give them more space and comfort

b) seats prevent crowd surging, and

c) seats make it easier to identify troublemakers in the crowds

I will come onto how modern safe standing preserves these features in a moment.

But it is worth noting that, in making his recommendations, Lord Taylor believed that fans would become accustomed to sitting and come to prefer it.

20 years later, thousands of fans in the Premiership and the Championship demonstrate that this is not the case.

And when fans stand in all-seater stadia today, it causes problems:

It ruins the experience for those who want to sit.

But equally, for many fans who prefer to stand, sitting ruins their experience.

And when they do stand - as many do - it is particularly unsafe.

Yet, as we know, preventing large numbers from standing in all-seater stadia is extremely difficult for stewards and the police.

If it can be done safely - and it can be - I believe it would be far better to have a mix of safe seating and safe standing areas in stadia where clubs chose to offer such options.

That way, children, families, and those who want a more peaceful experience could have it, while those who want to stand could exercise that right.

And it can be done.

Countries like the United States, Canada, and Germany are certainly not negligent towards their citizens' safety. Yet these countries have harnessed technological developments to create standing areas that are safe.

They are a popular choice with supporters.

In such areas, as with seated areas, there are designated spaces for each fan.

There are barriers between rows, preventing surging, pushing or jostling.

Individual fans can be easily identified if they are causing trouble, since they are limited to their own individual spaces.

Thus the key reasons why Lord Taylor recommended seating can also all be met with safe standing.

Indeed, in many cases, each individual standing area comes with its own flip down seat. This corresponds with UEFA and FIFA rules that require international and European matches to be seating only.

There is absolutely no evidence that such standing areas, where properly designed, managed and maintained, are unsafe for domestic matches.

As numerous polls have shown, they are overwhelmingly backed by supporters.

And by creating more space for fans, clubs could reduce the price of tickets offering another benefit for fans.

The question of standing is even more pressing for fans of S****horpe FC. For them, promotion has come at a very high price. After their third season in the top two tiers, they will have to have converted their ground into an all-seating venue.

This will reduce the ground's capacity - already the lowest in the Championship - from 9000 to 8000. Neither the club nor its supporters want this.

More seats means less space and so fewer supporters will get to see their team.

And if S****horpe is demoted in future, they will not be able to convert some of their seats back to standing areas. The conversion will have come at tremendous expense - S****horpe FC will have paid for the privilege of ruining their own ground.

I am grateful to the Hon Members for S****horpe and for Brigg and Goole, whose constituents are impacted by this change, for their support for this Bill.

I am also grateful to the Minister for Sport for agreeing to, at least, consult with relevant bodies about the issue.

Sadly, I suspect he will hear - as I continue to - some out-dated criticisms.

Some will raise the issue of cost. But that, as my Bill proposes, should be a matter for individual clubs to decide.

Some will suggest that spectators have become used to sitting and like it. But this is patently untrue as the long running campaigns by football fans' organisations show.

Some will argue that "statistics prove that seated stadia are safer than standing ones"

For some years the Football Licensing Authority (FLA) did claim this.

However, when these statistics were challenged as inaccurate, the FLA subsequently withdrew them.

As my Bill makes clear, minimum safety standards would be nationally established before any new safe standing areas are permitted.

Some might claim that seating has reduced hooliganism. But even before Hillsborough, hooliganism was declining.

Inside grounds and outside, in clubs that are all seated and in clubs that are terraced, hooliganism has receded. The character of this country's fans has changed for the better. For example, no England fans were arrested at the World Cup in South Africa with the exception of the practical joker who sneaked into the England team's dressing room.

The decline in football hooliganism is not directly because of a move to all seated stadia. Last week's Home Office arrest figures show no evidence of any link between grounds where standing is still allowed and the number of arrests. There is no reason to believe that a move introduce safe standing areas would mean an increase in hooliganism.

Finally, I have no doubt some will raise the issue of the UEFA and FIFA rules that I mentioned earlier; that games under their jurisdiction must be played in all-seater stadia.

But with the inclusion of flip down seats in each standing area, these regulations present no problem as was demonstrated in the Veltins Arena in Germany - used for the 2006 World Cup - and the Tivoli Stadium in Innsbruck, Austria, which was used during Euro 2008.

I defy opponents of safe standing to demonstrate that these stadia are unsafe, and that these countries are neglecting the safety of their fans by allowing standing.

Following the Hillsborough disaster it was right to take action against the old-style standing terraces. But modern developments mean that, as other countries have shown, it is perfectly possible to introduce safe standing into the stadia of Premiership and Championship Clubs - if the clubs want to and when stringent safety standards are met.

I hope the House will support moves to allow clubs to consider such options.

[Simmo86]

Really hope something productive comes of this, have my doubts though.

No longer can the authorities spin the standing is unsafe bullshit.

The option should be there for the clubs to decide whether they want standing areas.

[Guest Bilo]

Another good article from last year says that Everton's Chief Exec is willing for any new stadium to be a test case for safe standing if legislation allows it, so there are some clubs that are willing to open their minds to safe standing areas. The arguments against it are finally being exposed for what they are, and the fanatical advocates of the seats=safety argument are beginning to look like dinosaurs.

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/03/22/safe-standing-twenty-years-on-from-hillsborough/

[The Doctor]

to give all football clubs the freedom to build, or maintain existing, safe standing sections in their stadia if they choose;

can't see many, paticularly our club, choosing to build safe-standing areas. No matter whatever the fall-out of this is there will still be plenty who continue to believe that standing is dangerous.

[Guest Bilo]

can't see many, paticularly our club, choosing to build safe-standing areas. No matter whatever the fall-out of this is there will still be plenty who continue to believe that standing is dangerous.

I think you'd be surprised actually.

German clubs that have standing areas find them to be very profitable due to the increase in capacity they bring and the fact that they're popular, hence they sell out quickly. They are expensive to implement but the fact that so many German clubs have standing areas that equate to far more of the capacity than the 10% they're obliged to have speaks volume. If it was legal to have safe standing areas, I think you'd be surprised how many clubs in England would reintroduce terraces, if only for the cash they'd bring in.

[samjohnson]

Here here!

Hope something decent comes out of this

[purpleronnie]

I just can't help feeling that hillsborough still hangs over english football, even though with the fences removed and increased health and safety that it couldn't happen again. I think the 'brand' is so important and the grounds are so safe that no-one is willing especially in the premiership to make the changes.

However with 1000's standing anyway I don't see any rational arguement against introducing safe standing if the clubs want to.

I'd be happy for parts of the grounds to be made available for those who want to stand even if that means standing in front of seats.

[Ozwin]

http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/Safe-Standing-Bill-launched-in-Parliament.php

Promising stuff.

[purpleronnie]

The Lib dem's backed this 2 years ago, nothing changed. Its great to see it being discussed but its the same old.........

[Daggers]

I can't believe they're letting these fascists into parliament in order to stand safely. Does the Daily Mail know?

[Fosse Boy]

Shall be sending off a letter to my MP as soon as I get a spare minute. Anyone who believes in this should be doing the same.

Apparently there was a debate on 5Live this morning about this subject. Sadly not up on the iplayer yet though.

[Guest Bilo]

E-mail to Sir Peter Soulsby MP.

Dear Peter Soulsby,

As I'm sure you're aware, an Early Day Motion was tabled yesterday by Don

Foster MP regarding safe standing at football stadia in the UK. This is

a matter that evokes strong feelings among football fans with 9 out of

10 fans in favour of small safe standing areas at grounds according to

a survey by the Football Supporters Federation.

Such areas would put to an end the regular conflict between fans and

authorities at grounds, including stewards and police officers, when

fans choose to stand rather than sit during matches. The arguments

against standing are flawed and outdated from a safety point of view,

as Germany's highly successful standing areas in the Bundesliga prove.

There are now demonstrably safe ways of giving fans the choice that has

long been denied to them, the choice to support their team in their own

way. This is a matter of free choice for a considerable demographic

that encompasses many walks of society and your support for this bill

would be greatly appreciated.

And his reply (received impressively promptly I must say)

Dear Mr Hall,

Thank you very much indeed for your email. I entirely agree and was pleased to be present to support Don Foster's 10 Minute Rule Bill.

Don made a very powerful speech in support of the proposals but, unfortunately, unless the Government backs it, it will not make further progress.

I have, however, discussed this issue in the past with LCFC and will certainly take every opportunity to raise it again and to press the case in the future.

Yours sincerely,

Peter Soulsby

So the Bill does appear to have some support aside from Lib Dem MPs who have officially backed the Safe Standing Campaign since 2008, but we're relying on the Tories to get the bill through. If anyone has a Tory MP to send an e-mail to, it'd be great to hear their response. I'm genuinely impressed by how supportive Sir Peter Soulsby is of this campaign, especially to hear he has had discussions with the club in the past. Fair play to the man.

[Fosse Boy]

Mind if I copy and paste that to send to Edward Garnier? Would write my own but I'm a bit busy at the moment...

[Guest Bilo]

Mind if I copy and paste that to send to Edward Garnier? Would write my own but I'm a bit busy at the moment...

Course not mate, give it a bash.

As I say, hearing the Tory viewpoint would be interesting. If you want to edit it, please feel free.

[Fosse Boy]

Course not mate, give it a bash.

As I say, hearing the Tory viewpoint would be interesting. If you want to edit it, please feel free.

Sweet. Sent a similar letter to all candidates in the constituency before the last election. Steady Eddy promised to send me hard documents but never did. The only one who gave me the time of day was the English Democrats candidate, who sent me a very nice long reply agreeing with me but stated his party didn't have an official policy on it yet.

[davieG]

E-mail to Sir Peter Soulsby MP.

email

Hope you don't mind Bilo but I've nicked your email to Stephen Dorrell my Tory MP and I've linked his Motion to my Facebook page.

http://bathlibdems.org.uk/news/000380/don_foster_mp_for_bath_introduces_the_safe_standing_bill.html

[Guest Bilo]

Hope you don't mind Bilo but I've nicked your email to Stephen Dorrell my Tory MP and I've linked his Motion to my Facebook page.

http://bathlibdems.org.uk/news/000380/don_foster_mp_for_bath_introduces_the_safe_standing_bill.html

Not at all mate.

I'd like to open that invitation to anybody on here by the way, please feel free if you want to send a copy of my e-mail to your local MP.

[Simmo86]

Email sent to my local Tory MP Philip Hollobone.

Will post his reply if I get one.

[Fosse Boy]

Leicester South: Sir Peter Soulsby - [email protected]

Leicester West: Elizabeth Kendall - [email protected]

Leicester East: Keith Vaz - [email protected]

Harborough: Edward Garnier - [email protected]

Leicestershire North West: Andrew Bridgen - [email protected]

Rutland & Melton: Alan Duncan - [email protected]

Loughborough: Nicky Morgan - [email protected]

Leicestershire South: Andrew Robathan - [email protected]

Bosworth: David Tredinnick - [email protected]

Charnwood: Stephen Dorrell - [email protected]

Stuff their inboxes.

[Guest Bilo]

Dear *******

As I'm sure you're aware, an Early Day Motion was tabled yesterday by Don Foster MP regarding the introduction of safe standing areas at football stadia in the UK. This, clearly, is a matter which evokes strong feelings among football fans, with 9 out of 10 fans in favour of small designated safe standing areas at grounds according to a survey conducted by the Football Supporters Federation.

The introduction of the aforementioned areas standing areas would put to an end the regular, and at times unnecessarily hostile, conflict between football fans and safety authorities at grounds, including stewards and police officers, when fans choose to stand during games as opposed to sitting down.

The arguments against having designated standing areas in football stadia are fundamentally flawed, and very much outdated from a safety point of view, a point successfully highlighted with Germany's ever-popular and much championed standing areas in the Bundesliga. Introducing safe standing areas in this country would not be a throw-back to the old days of poorly constructed, badly maintained, over-populated terraces. Instead, it would see properly policed, well maintained areas of stadiums provided with crush barriers to prevent overcrowding and the dreaded "domino effect" which caused so many issues in times gone by.

Fans in this country have campaigned for a while for the right to have a choice as to how they support their team, and it has long been suggested, both by champions of safe standing areas and also those who prefer to remain seated during games, that the choice should be in place to avoid any form of conflict and maximise everybody's individual enjoyment of the game which they so passionately love.

I am aware that you recently approved an EDM to review the decision to abolish the FLA. However, I believe that based on the strength of feeling with regards to this issue, and considering that it is a matter of free choice for a considerable demographic in your constituency and encompasses many walks of society, your support for this bill would be greatly appreciated.

If you have any reservations or questions to ask me, please feel free to send me them. If for any reason you would not wish to support this motion, I would be more than grateful if you could provide reasons as to why not, in the hope that it could, at the very least, encourage constructive debate on the matter.

Yours sincerely,

********

Expanded version courtesy of a poster who leaves less room to manoeuvre than I do.

[Jackirius]

Should i send one to my MP? Or would it be pointless in Norwich?

[The Doctor]

Should i send one to my MP? Or would it be pointless in Norwich?

Shouldn't be, the MP's in narwich will get a say on this so the more mp's across the country in support of this the better.

edit: now then, who's my local MP if i live in wigston magna?

[Jackirius]

Sent

[Fosse Boy]

Shouldn't be, the MP's in narwich will get a say on this so the more mp's across the country in support of this the better.

edit: now then, who's my local MP if i live in wigston magna?

Garnier. Think you count as Harborough. Lucky you.

[Jackirius]

<---- My local MP, what a hero.