Legalise cannabis?

[Steven]

Seems like voters in Washington and Colorado have got some gonads.

[Guest MattP]

The efforts to stop and ban drugs have led to this absurd situation where Alcohol (the most damaging drug on the planet), coffee tobacco etc are all legal and accessible and causing untold damage. whilst other drugs cannabis etc which are less damaging are made illegal, forcing normally law abiding citizens into illegal situations.

And... there is no way you can stop this sh*t..... http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/more-synthetic-cannabis-on-the-perth-market-20121107-28xk3.html

Whilst alcohol is damaging you can't really call it the worst drug on the planet, it's that because a small minority abuse it, 98% of people enjoy it and it causes no problem.

You can't say the same about Heroin.

I'd probably sway towards legalising cannabis now mind, if grown men still smoke it though you have to wonder what they are doing with their lives

Oh and no smoking on the front of pubs, last thing most people want to do it is walk through that vile stench.

Edited 8 November 2012 by MattP

[Carl the Llama]

Whilst alcohol is damaging you can't really call it the worst drug on the planet, it's that because a small minority abuse it, 98% of people enjoy it and it causes no problem.

You can't say the same about Heroin.

I'd probably sway towards legalising cannabis now mind, if grown men still smoke it though you have to wonder what they are doing with their lives

Oh and no smoking on the front of pubs, last thing most people want to do it is walk through that vile stench.

I can't find any stats onlne to indicate the percentage of problem drinkers amongst those who drink, where are you getting your figures from?

I took a different approach and searched for figures on deaths caused per substance (extreme case I know, but it surely gives an accurate picture of the relative harms). The best I could find without subscribing to various academic sites was this table here.

I don't know if the figures take into account the potential effect of substance use in the cases of suicide, vehicular accidents or medical conditions where the symptoms may be exacerbated by the substance, however there are quite a few stats directly significant to this debate (data from 2009):

-Drug induced (all drugs, legal or otherwise) ------ 39 147

-Alcohol induced ----------------------------------------- 24 518

-Illicit drugs (year 2000 data) ---------------------------17 000

-Drug induced - alcohol induced --------------------- 14 629

-Cannabis ------------------------------------------------- 0

The interesting thing for me is that if you take the 2009 alcohol data and subtract the 2009 data for all drug-related deaths you have an estimate that alcohol causes 75% more deaths than all other (legal & illegal) substances. It's just a shame they don't have more recent illicit drug data to allow a more legitimate comparison.

I don't know what changes would happen if all substances were legal, but the really telling stat is that none of these deaths are attributed to cannabis, the drug in question.

I would suggest therefore that any grown men still smoking cannabis are being socially responsible on a level you seem unwilling to give them credit for. As for no smoking outside pubs - are you saying that cigarettes shouldn't be smoked outside either? I find the smell of tobacco smoke much more stale and offensive, in fact I quite like the smell of (fresh) cannabis smoke.

[flowwolf]

I can't find any stats onlne to indicate the percentage of problem drinkers amongst those who drink, where are you getting your figures from?

I took a different approach and searched for figures on deaths caused per substance (extreme case I know, but it surely gives an accurate picture of the relative harms). The best I could find without subscribing to various academic sites was this table here.

I don't know if the figures take into account the potential effect of substance use in the cases of suicide, vehicular accidents or medical conditions where the symptoms may be exacerbated by the substance, however there are quite a few stats directly significant to this debate (data from 2009):

-Drug induced (all drugs, legal or otherwise) ------ 39 147

-Alcohol induced ----------------------------------------- 24 518

-Illicit drugs (year 2000 data) ---------------------------17 000

-Drug induced - alcohol induced --------------------- 14 629

-Cannabis ------------------------------------------------- 0

The interesting thing for me is that if you take the 2009 alcohol data and subtract the 2009 data for all drug-related deaths you have an estimate that alcohol causes 75% more deaths than all other (legal & illegal) substances. It's just a shame they don't have more recent illicit drug data to allow a more legitimate comparison.

I don't know what changes would happen if all substances were legal, but the really telling stat is that none of these deaths are attributed to cannabis, the drug in question.

I would suggest therefore that any grown men still smoking cannabis are being socially responsible on a level you seem unwilling to give them credit for. As for no smoking outside pubs - are you saying that cigarettes shouldn't be smoked outside either? I find the smell of tobacco smoke much more stale and offensive, in fact I quite like the smell of (fresh) cannabis smoke.

Well I find that the stench of cannabis remind's me of a dried up piss soaked nappy, then I look at the social inadequate's who are smoking it with their dopey looking eyes and yellow stained teeth and think " isn't life strange we happily gas Badgers yet tolerate a form of life that is clearly below that of Family Mustelidae " and if any of you think i'm picking on you it's brought on by paranoia .

Edited 8 November 2012 by flowwolf

[foz.foz]

This might help. http://www.economist...cause_most_harm

It by a group of scientist who actually speak the scientific truth and not some BS the Government wants to hear

Edit to get the pic on screen.

Edited 8 November 2012 by foz.foz

[Steven]

No drugs found.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2229747/Mother-suffers-horrendous-eye-injury-hit-face-door-police-battered-drugs-raid.html

[foz.foz]

No drugs found.

http://www.dailymail...drugs-raid.html

from the link

"This information was put before a magistrate who granted the warrant under the Misuse of Drugs Act. It was carried out by specially trained officers.

I think they need a lot more fcuking training

Ms McDonnell said: 'I was holding my daughter one minute and then heard a tap on the front door.

Superintendent Gary Parkin, head of operational policing in Derby, said: When executing warrants it is important to enter the property quickly and without warning to the occupants to ensure no potential evidence is lost.

Well Gary, you dropped a right bollock there me old pal if someone has already heard you and is opening the door.

[notnow john]

Not arguing with this data but can't find any research based evidence to back it up. Anyone can pluck data to suit their argument,where's the proof [%]

[foz.foz]

Not arguing with this data but can't find any research based evidence to back it up. Anyone can pluck data to suit their argument,where's the proof [%]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/David_Nutt

Ok.... not entirely proof, but it does give a bit of a description about the professor and his colleges who conducted the study and produced the graph in my last post. He was at one time the head of the ACMD (Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs) and reported to the Government until they didn't quite agree with something he said and was promptly sacked. A few of his colleges walked not long after.

This country could be the first of many countries to sell marijuana taking the criminal element out of the "loop" putting hundreds of millions of dollars into its economy. If it is done well, not only will it reduce the black market, it will be a bench mark for more countries around the world to reduce their economic deficit and I believe, reduce the countries drug users. Think about it, the majority of stoners in Holland are the tourists. The "locals" don't really bat an eye lid about it because it's there if they want it.

[anotherharboroughfox]

Time it was made illegal.

14-year-old girl dies of heart attack after drinking two cans of high-caffeine Monster Energy drink on consecutive days

I once went through 3 in a day. I'm fine...

[flowwolf]

This might help. http://www.economist...cause_most_harm

It by a group of scientist who actually speak the scientific truth and not some BS the Government wants to hear

Edit to get the pic on screen.

But they are just statistics that do not take into account the amount of people using per category. Of course Alcohol will top the bill because it has the largest usage per capita. If the same amount of people who use Alcohol used Heroin or some other highly addictive drug instead society would soon fall into anarchy.

Sorry but statistics can be manipulated to make what ever point the statistician want's people to believe.

Edited 9 November 2012 by flowwolf

[Guest MattP]

I don't know what changes would happen if all substances were legal, but the really telling stat is that none of these deaths are attributed to cannabis, the drug in question.

I would suggest therefore that any grown men still smoking cannabis are being socially responsible on a level you seem unwilling to give them credit for. As for no smoking outside pubs - are you saying that cigarettes shouldn't be smoked outside either? I find the smell of tobacco smoke much more stale and offensive, in fact I quite like the smell of (fresh) cannabis smoke.

My"stat" was a figure of speech to say the vast majority of people drink alcohol without it being a problem.

You shouldnt just decide whether something should be banned on if it causes death or not.

Cigarettes are vile but nothing in terms of the stench of cannabis. Grown men smoking it? Not for me, each to their own though I suppose.

[Carl the Llama]

But they are just statistics that do not take into account the amount of people using per category. Of course Alcohol will top the bill because it has the largest usage per capita. If the same amount of people who use Alcohol used Heroin or some other highly addictive drug instead society would soon fall into anarchy.

Sorry but statistics can be manipulated to make what ever point the statistician want's people to believe.

Way to read the article linked in the post you're quoting.

Until you've done so don't try to pour out your preconceived prejudices. I don't blame you for being misinformed - most of your generation were brought up on some really crappy propoganda - I will blame you though if you continue to not look at, and take, in the information being presented to you. The articles tiny!

You don't even have to agree with it. But if it is the case that you don't agree with it after reading it, I would imagine you'll at least come back with a response that actually pertains to the content of the article.

Here, I'll save you the effort of going to a new tab:

A new study suggests alcohol is more harmful than heroin or crack

MOST people would agree that some drugs are worse than others: heroin is probably considered to be more dangerous than marijuana, for instance. Because governments formulate criminal and social policies based upon classifications of harm, a new study published by the Lancet on November 1st makes interesting reading. Researchers led by Professor David Nutt, a former chief drugs adviser to the British government, asked drug-harm experts to rank 20 drugs (legal and illegal) on 16 measures of harm to the user and to wider society, such as damage to health, drug dependency, economic costs and crime. Alcohol is the most harmful drug in Britain, scoring 72 out of a possible 100, far more damaging than heroin (55) or crack cocaine (54). It is the most harmful to others by a wide margin, and is ranked fourth behind heroin, crack, and methamphetamine (crystal meth) for harm to the individual. The authors point out that the model's weightings, though based on judgment, were analysed and found to be stable as large changes would be needed to change the overall rankings.

(link)

[Carl the Llama]

My"stat" was a figure of speech to say the vast majority of people drink alcohol without it being a problem.

You shouldnt just decide whether something should be banned on if it causes death or not.

Cigarettes are vile but nothing in terms of the stench of cannabis. Grown men smoking it? Not for me, each to their own though I suppose.

Certainly not, and that wasn't my point. I was showing the folly of banning substances on grounds of harm (social or otherwise) when the statistics point to the major accepted drug of our society being generally more harmful than the drug in question.

[Guest MattP]

Problem is that article makes absolutely no sense as it doesn't seem to compare the numbers that do either.

No one who has ever known anyone who became addicted to Heroin would ever even comtemplate saying anything in the World was less harmful than the stuff.

[Guest MattP]

Certainly not, and that wasn't my point. I was showing the folly of banning substances on grounds of harm (social or otherwise) when the statistics point to the major accepted drug of our society being generally more harmful than the drug in question.

I'd say it's our culture that has created alcohol being the danger, go to Spain or France and alcohol is hardly a factor when it comes to crime. It's naive to point at something and say this is more dangerous than this on the research of one country, even more so one that has a culture of binge drinking, that's the reason alcohol is the cause of problems, not the actual substance.

[Carl the Llama]

I'd say it's our culture that has created alcohol being the danger, go to Spain or France and alcohol is hardly a factor when it comes to crime. It's naive to point at something and say this is more dangerous than this on the research of one country, even more so one that has a culture of binge drinking, that's the reason alcohol is the cause of problems, not the actual substance.

Actually drink driving's such an epidemic in France that everyone who drives there or through there has to carry 2 portable breathaliser kits in their car by law.

[flowwolf]

Way to read the article linked in the post you're quoting.

Until you've done so don't try to pour out your preconceived prejudices. I don't blame you for being misinformed - most of your generation were brought up on some really crappy propoganda - I will blame you though if you continue to not look at, and take, in the information being presented to you. The articles tiny!

You don't even have to agree with it. But if it is the case that you don't agree with it after reading it, I would imagine you'll at least come back with a response that actually pertains to the content of the article.

Here, I'll save you the effort of going to a new tab:

(link)

Thank you for the patronisation but it was not really needed. If you read that so called report it makes reference to the harm to society as well the user. People who use hard drugs Heroin etc are for the most part not capable of holding down a job due to their addiction and so consequently have to get the money to feed that addiction by theft, prostitution , mugging or any other means they can. Not to mention the burden on the health service , police and social services. As I said most members of the public drink alcohol on a regular day to day basis without any of the serious problems that the other drugs bring.

Don't believe every research findings that are put in front of you. Don't be so trusting in so called experts, in nearly all cases there is a hidden agenda. Take the banning of smoking in pubs do you really believe that was about protecting the public from harmful nicotine fumes ? No it was about driving people away from pubs and it got exactly the result the government was hoping for thousands and thousands of pubs closing all over the UK.

It's all about control and the so called experts are very good at controlling what you think by putting out the kind of statistical bollocks shown on here.

[Carl the Llama]

Problem is that article makes absolutely no sense as it doesn't seem to compare the numbers that do either.

No one who has ever known anyone who became addicted to Heroin would ever even comtemplate saying anything in the World was less harmful than the stuff.

Missed this post.

Personally I'm struggling to see what I can say to make The Economist's summary clearer.

If you mean you want a more detailed breakdown of the figures, the full article's here. You need to register to see it though.

[flowwolf]

Missed this post.

Personally I'm struggling to see what I can say to make The Economist's summary clearer.

If you mean you want a more detailed breakdown of the figures, the full article's here. You need to register to see it though.

But you keep assuming that The Economist's summary is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Don't you ever question things when they don't make sense like this report clearly doesn't ?

By that I mean it is at odds with every thing I see in the real world. No one is saying alcohol is no problem but compared to the other drugs it does not have the same life destroying impact per capita as the other hard drugs .

Edited 9 November 2012 by flowwolf

[Carl the Llama]

Thank you for the patronisation but it was not really needed. If you read that so called report it makes reference to the harm to society as well the user. People who use hard drugs Heroin etc are for the most part not capable of holding down a job due to their addiction and so consequently have to get the money to feed that addiction by theft, prostitution , mugging or any other means they can. Not to mention the burden on the health service , police and social services. As I said most members of the public drink alcohol on a regular day to day basis without any of the serious problems that the other drugs bring.

Don't believe every research findings that are put in front of you. Don't be so trusting in so called experts, in nearly all cases there is a hidden agenda. Take the banning of smoking in pubs do you really believe that was about protecting the public from harmful nicotine fumes ? No it was about driving people away from pubs and it got exactly the result the government was hoping for thousands and thousands of pubs closing all over the UK.

It's all about control and the so called experts are very good at controlling what you think by putting out the kind of statistical bollocks shown on here.

This country is just over run with heroin addicts breaking into homes and stealing our taxes. Good point.

[Carl the Llama]

But you keep assuming that The Economist's summary is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Don't you ever question things when they don't make sense like this report clearly doesn't ?

By that I mean it is at odds with every thing I see in the real world. No one is saying alcohol is no problem but compared to the other drugs it does not have the same life destroying impact per capita as the other hard drugs .

Ok, let's play the anecdote game.

How often do you see or hear about people being mugged by heroin addicts?

Now, same question but with drunk driving.

[lavrentis]

I used to hate the smell of cannabis but I think you grow to like it

[flowwolf]

Right so I have imagined it all along have I ? just because you do not see the every day impact on society that hard drug use brings does not mean it is not happening. It is a shady dirty little underworld that the majority of people do not come into contact with. But one thing is for sure hard drug habits do not come cheap so how exactly do you think they fund it then ?

Your very good at picking out sentences but never answer the whole point. Are you saying that hard drug use does no one any harm or that it does not bring criminal behaviour out of the need to fund it ? Answer please.

[ozleicester]

But you keep assuming that The Economist's summary is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Don't you ever question things when they don't make sense like this report clearly doesn't ?

By that I mean it is at odds with every thing I see in the real world. No one is saying alcohol is no problem but compared to the other drugs it does not have the same life destroying impact per capita as the other hard drugs .

http://www.tdpf.org....latedDeaths.htm

Edit- table didnt copy.. see link

Alcohol 6000+ deaths

Heroin 713

Edited 9 November 2012 by ozleicester