Legalise cannabis?

[Carl the Llama]

Right so I have imagined it all along have I ? just because you do not see the every day impact on society that hard drug use brings does not mean it is not happening. It is a shady dirty little underworld that the majority of people do not come into contact with. But one thing is for sure hard drug habits do not come cheap so how exactly do you think they fund it then ?

Your very good at picking out sentences but never answer the whole point. Are you saying that hard drug use does no one any harm or that it does not bring criminal behaviour out of the need to fund it ? Answer please.

I'm saying you have an exaggerated view on the prevalence of this behaviour and its effect on society. From my personal experience, if you take a trip to this "shady dirty little underground" in your area, chances are it's mostly youngish people taking cannabis, ecstasy/MDMA, shrooms, LSD or speed without becoming addicted. Of those I've tried all bar MDMA but I now only smoke cannabis on occasion. The thing making this scene a "shady dirty little underground" is its illegal status which is actually more dangerous than the drugs themselves as it forces you associate with less-than-honest people. That said the people I got my weed from in England have tended to be perfectly nice, hard working people, making some cash on the side dealing from their house - you go inside, have a chat, maybe skin one up and share it around anyone else present, then go your merry way. It's as if coffee shops already legally exist in the country, but the public purse can't benefit from it.

Hard drug addiction does terrible things to people, there's no denying that. Nor is there any denying the horrific nature of alcohol addiction. One is much more common than the other, but also has publicly funded ways of dealing with it without making the user a criminal.

If your fear is that hard drug use and addiction would multiply with decriminalisation, you're quite wrong.

Edit: You can add coke to that list - only tried it once myself, thought it was a massive waste of money.

Edited 9 November 2012 by BoxingFoxes

[Guest MattP]

http://www.tdpf.org....latedDeaths.htm

Edit- table didnt copy.. see link

Alcohol 6000+ deaths

Heroin 713

Which considering the amount of users of each shows how dangerous Heroin is.

[AdamN]

Not sure why a drug as harmful as heroin is factoring into a debate about cannabis. Alcohol and cannabis are recreational drugs, Heroin is not. You don't go to the pub or round a mate's house to shoot up, unless you have some serious issues.

[ADK]

We should be tightening the laws on alcohol not looking to introduce more drugs into the equation.

[Guest MattP]

We should be tightening the laws on alcohol not looking to introduce more drugs into the equation.

Better education and the removal of the 'binge drinking is cool' culture is what's needed, not more laws.

.

Edited 9 November 2012 by MattP

[ADK]

Better education and the removal of the 'binge drinking is cool' culture is what's needed, not more laws.

.

I think banning alcohol advertising would help. I don't see how education can really play that much of a part.

[Carl the Llama]

I think banning alcohol advertising would help. I don't see how education can really play that much of a part.

Just out of curiosity what do you think the mental and physical effects of cannabis are?

[Guest MattP]

Just out of curiosity what do you think the mental and physical effects of cannabis are?

From my friends/colleagues who smoke it I'd say laziness, some very severe paranoia and a dreadful standard of personal hygiene.

[Carl the Llama]

From my friends/colleagues who smoke it I'd say laziness, some very severe paranoia and a dreadful standard of personal hygiene.

I've known some who that fits perfectly. Not really a fair representation of smokers as a whole though - apart from the paranoia point, almost everyone gets that at some point (while they're stoned) and you just have to know your own personal limit before you start bugging out. Just like you have to know your limit before you become a complete prat on alcohol.

Edit: Just to clarify - some people develop severe paranoia as a permanent/semi permanent condition after continued heavy use of the drug, if you're finding yourself getting jumpy after small dosages then you shouldn't continue to smoke.

Edited 9 November 2012 by BoxingFoxes

[Guest MattP]

I've known some who that fits perfectly. Not really a fair representation of smokers as a whole though - apart from the paranoia point, almost everyone gets that at some point (while they're stoned) and you just have to know your own personal limit before you start bugging out. Just like you have to know your limit before you become a complete prat on alcohol.

Edit: Just to clarify - some people develop severe paranoia as a permanent/semi permanent condition after continued heavy use of the drug, if you're finding yourself getting jumpy after small dosages then you shouldn't continue to smoke.

Yeah I got paranoid when I tried it so never bothered again, I always thought of it as a dirty drug anyway. I used to dabble in allsorts and use a few Class A drugs but I knew my limits. Still do the odd bit of Coke and Ketamin.

I wouldn't want them legalised though, the temptation would be a bit too much for a lot of people, I'd probably nip down and buy a gram if it was that open.

Edited 9 November 2012 by MattP

[foz.foz]

Not sure why a drug as harmful as heroin is factoring into a debate about cannabis. Alcohol and cannabis are recreational drugs, Heroin is not. You don't go to the pub or round a mate's house to shoot up, unless you have some serious issues.

All drugs are or should be included, right down to Paracetamol. Two packs of these in one sitting and its you signing off of this planet. For good.

We should be tightening the laws on alcohol not looking to introduce more drugs into the equation.

Not really.... look back at America during the prohibition era. Banning something will create a black market which is one thing you could really do without. If someone wants some (insert drug of your choice here) they will find a dealer. This dealer could and probably will have laced this drug with absolutely anything else to bulk up the weight and gain more money. If drugs are regulated, at least the quality of them will be at a known level/dose. The money created would go to fund things like the NHS to wean people off the harder drugs.

Better education and the removal of the 'binge drinking is cool' culture is what's needed, not more laws..

Bang on the nail here, and I completely agree with this statement. Look at the Dutch for an example of this. I reckon (and its only my thoughts), because they have a liberal way with soft drugs, the locals have most probably tried it. Some people continue to use it but they don't get Reefer Madness which is what our government used to preach. Treat people like adults and 99% of them will behave like adults. Act like Big brother and people will rebel.

Just out of curiosity what do you think the mental and physical effects of cannabis are?

From what I have seen .... Teenagers become right ****** and give dope users a bad name. A bit like teenagers (and adults if I'm honest) drinking to excess. Regular heavy use of dope is not good for the development of the brain just like regular heavy use of alcohol is not good for the development of the brain.

From my friends/colleagues who smoke it I'd say laziness, some very severe paranoia and a dreadful standard of personal hygiene.

Sorry, that is a bit of a general sweeping statement. You could swap the word "smoke" for drink and still have the same answer.

[AdamN]

All drugs are or should be included, right down to Paracetamol. Two packs of these in one sitting and its you signing off of this planet. For good.

Fair point, but at the same time, you wouldn't justify making Paracetamol illegal by saying "look how fu/cked up these heroin users are". All drugs can be dangerous, but there are different levels of danger.

[MooseBreath]

You can quite easily die from drinking too much water. Shall we control that as well? Maybe install taps which only disperse a maximum of one litre an hour. Place restrictions on the number of bottles of water one can buy. Spiral head first into the mummy state like never before. It's for your own good! If we let you have unrestricted access to water you'll only go and kill yourself. You NEED us to protect youuuuuuuuuu

[foz.foz]

Fair point, but at the same time, you wouldn't justify making Paracetamol illegal by saying "look how fu/cked up these heroin users are". All drugs can be dangerous, but there are different levels of danger.

Agreed. That's why its vital that the whole drugs list/chart whatever you want to call it is honest and truthful, so we as adults can make a choice as to whether or not we take a drug, legal ones, or those only currently available on the black market. Not some government minister or newspaper editor's say so,

[ADK]

I never mentioned banning alcohol as a first step. You can't just ban something that has a whole culture built around it. In case people didn't notice they are going to be bringing in minimum pricing. Thats a tightening of the laws regarding alcohol.

[foz.foz]

To anyone who is a parent of a teenager on here.

I'm guessing that in the not too distant future, your child will go to a party and there will be drugs of one form or another there. Soft drugs hard drugs alcohol etc etc. Now kids being kids (and yes you and me were teenagers once) they are going to try these drugs one day. Would you prefer that the drugs they were taking were from a trusted source (ie government shop) or as it stands at the minute, some dodgy B'stard from a back street up town??

It's ok you saying they wouldn't try a drug but be honest here....

This is why, this country should at least grow some balls and take a lead into selling drugs and completely losing the Black market. Any profits would go straight back into help reform addicts from their disease.

[flowwolf]

I'm saying you have an exaggerated view on the prevalence of this behaviour and its effect on society. From my personal experience, if you take a trip to this "shady dirty little underground" in your area, chances are it's mostly youngish people taking cannabis, ecstasy/MDMA, shrooms, LSD or speed without becoming addicted. Of those I've tried all bar MDMA but I now only smoke cannabis on occasion. The thing making this scene a "shady dirty little underground" is its illegal status which is actually more dangerous than the drugs themselves as it forces you associate with less-than-honest people. That said the people I got my weed from in England have tended to be perfectly nice, hard working people, making some cash on the side dealing from their house - you go inside, have a chat, maybe skin one up and share it around anyone else present, then go your merry way. It's as if coffee shops already legally exist in the country, but the public purse can't benefit from it.

Hard drug addiction does terrible things to people, there's no denying that. Nor is there any denying the horrific nature of alcohol addiction. One is much more common than the other, but also has publicly funded ways of dealing with it without making the user a criminal.

If your fear is that hard drug use and addiction would multiply with decriminalisation, you're quite wrong.

Edit: You can add coke to that list - only tried it once myself, thought it was a massive waste of money.

Sorry I just don't get your hang up about alcohol when you have freely admitted to taking just about every drug in the book, are you kind of proud of that ? As for decriminalisation of drugs let me tell you it's not going to happen because the vast majority of the electorate despise drug taking and any party that says it will decriminalise drugs would be committing political suicide . Perhaps you should spend some time in self analysis as to why you feel the need to take drugs in the first place instead of trying to convince everyone to be like you.

[Webbo]

To anyone who is a parent of a teenager on here.

I'm guessing that in the not too distant future, your child will go to a party and there will be drugs of one form or another there. Soft drugs hard drugs alcohol etc etc. Now kids being kids (and yes you and me were teenagers once) they are going to try these drugs one day. Would you prefer that the drugs they were taking were from a trusted source (ie government shop) or as it stands at the minute, some dodgy B'stard from a back street up town??

It's ok you saying they wouldn't try a drug but be honest here....

This is why, this country should at least grow some balls and take a lead into selling drugs and completely losing the Black market. Any profits would go straight back into help reform addicts from their disease.

I didn't try drugs when I was a teenager and I'm fairly confident my teenage daughters wouldn't either. It's not compulsory.

Why do you assume that everyone who takes drugs is desperate to buy them from legal sources?

[Carl the Llama]

Sorry I just don't get your hang up about alcohol when you have freely admitted to taking just about every drug in the book, are you kind of proud of that ? As for decriminalisation of drugs let me tell you it's not going to happen because the vast majority of the electorate despise drug taking and any party that says it will decriminalise drugs would be committing political suicide . Perhaps you should spend some time in self analysis as to why you feel the need to take drugs in the first place instead of trying to convince everyone to be like you.

You don't seem to be taking anything in, just deflecting attention and changing the subject. My hang up, as should be evident by now, is that alcohol (which I have no problem with it) is legally sanctioned, but people who make the educated choice to use another recreational drug are treated like criminals and unfairly shunned by people with misconceptions like yours.

The decriminalisation point was a link to an article showing you the beneficial ways that the criminals you despise can be treated without being marginalised and the nationwide effects of it. READ IT. Until people like you do, of course the government would be committing political suicide by taking a common-sense, scientific approach to drugs laws. That said I'm more personally concerned with the status of cannabis, as said I'm not too keen on other drugs anymore. I don't, however, want to cast a defining "that's bad" decision on other drugs if people want to use them sensibly, and will in fact be more than happy to give people my own personal opinion based on my experience of those drugs if they want some advice on the pros & cons.

The self-analysis point is way off the mark - that's pretty much the whole reason you take hallucinogens. Nor am I telling you to be just like me. If you don't want to take drugs that's fine, but you can't let your own choices dictate whether other people should be allowed to make their own reasoned decisions on the matter.

I didn't try drugs when I was a teenager and I'm fairly confident my teenage daughters wouldn't either. It's not compulsory. (1)

Why do you assume that everyone who takes drugs is desperate to buy them from legal sources? (2)

1: No it isn't. Everyone should have a choice on the matter though.

2: Is that a joke? I don't even know where to begin with that...

Edited 9 November 2012 by BoxingFoxes

[Webbo]

2: Is that a joke? I don't even know where to begin with that...

Have a try.

[flowwolf]

You don't seem to be taking anything in, just deflecting attention and changing the subject. My hang up, as should be evident by now, is that alcohol (which I have no problem with it) is legally sanctioned, but people who make the educated choice to use another recreational drug are treated like criminals and unfairly shunned by people with misconceptions like yours.

The decriminalisation point was a link to an article showing you the beneficial ways that the criminals you despise can be treated without being marginalised and the nationwide effects of it. READ IT. Until people like you do, of course the government would be committing political suicide by taking a common-sense, scientific approach to drugs laws. That said I'm more personally concerned with the status of cannabis, as said I'm not too keen on other drugs anymore. I don't, however, want to cast a defining "that's bad" decision on other drugs if people want to use them sensibly, and will in fact be more than happy to give people my own personal opinion based on my experience of those drugs if they want some advice on the pros & cons.

The self-analysis point is way off the mark - that's pretty much the whole reason you take hallucinogens. Nor am I telling you to be just like me. If you don't want to take drugs that's fine, but you can't let your own choices dictate whether other people should be allowed to make their own reasoned decisions on the matter.

1: No it isn't. Everyone should have a choice on the matter though.

2: Is that a joke? I don't even know where to begin with that...

But Boxing what educated person would make a choice to take heroin ? in my opinion and thankfully most peoples opinion you have to be pretty uneducated to get involved with that soul destroying shit. You talk as if taking hard drugs has no affect on society just the individual, well as I have already said once you have spent your entire savings and are out of work due to your habit ( psychological dependency leading to physical dependency ) you need to get the money from somewhere. So it starts off stealing from your loved ones then thieving where ever you can or prostitution.

Taking hard drugs is NOT an educated choice it's a entirely selfish choice because anyone with a ounce of education knows the end result. They are treated like criminals because that is what they become and unless the law has changed this lately they ARE criminals. You are the one not taking anything in, it is criminalised because the governments all over the world know the destructive and corrosive affect on society that are brought on by hard drug taking.

Edited 9 November 2012 by flowwolf

[Carl the Llama]

But Boxing what educated person would make a choice to take heroin ? in my opinion and thankfully most peoples opinion you have to be pretty uneducated to get involved with that soul destroying shit. You talk as if taking hard drugs has no affect on society just the individual, well as I have already said once you have spent your entire savings and are out of work due to your habit ( psychological dependency leading to physical dependency ) you need to get the money from somewhere. So it starts off stealing from your loved ones then thieving where ever you can or prostitution.

Taking hard drugs is NOT an educated choice it's a entirely selfish choice because anyone with a ounce of education knows the end result. They are treated like criminals because that is what they become and unless the law has changed this lately they ARE criminals. You are the one not taking anything in, it is criminalised because the governments all over the world know the destructive and corrosive affect on society that are brought on by hard drug taking.

I see your point, but these people will exist regardless of legal policy. Wouldn't it be better to have a system in place where usage could be somewhat monitored, and make it easier for these people to get decent help?

[foz.foz]

I didn't try drugs when I was a teenager and I'm fairly confident my teenage daughters wouldn't either. It's not compulsory.

Why do you assume that everyone who takes drugs is desperate to buy them from legal sources?

Webbo.

No one is saying drug taking is compulsory, but in this day and age with peer pressure from mates, the majority of kids (not all but most) will give them a try. Either a quick drag of a fag, or a sip of beer down the park or a joint at a party. It's human nature to try the forbidden fruit. I bet you even tried some form of alcohol when you were a teenager and that's a drug mate. Widely available, legal, the cause of most hospitals being a bit more busy on a Friday and Saturday night but still a drug.

Secondly, I am not saying everyone should buy from a government source. That will not happen 100%. What I am saying is this. If our government were to sell Drug X, it would be sold at a correct weight and strength(a controlled environment) so a the buyer knew what they were buying (similar to beer or spirits in shops). If your choice of drug X was to strong/weak you could purchase weaker/stronger next time.

At the moment, there is a massive black market buying and selling drugs, with no control of how strong or how pure a drug is This revenue is in the billions and not one penny of it is being paid in taxes, so the treasury is missing out on £££££'s. This money could be ploughed back into the system to educate kids at school and help those addicted to the stronger stuff.

edit

Edited 9 November 2012 by foz.foz

[flowwolf]

I see your point, but these people will exist regardless of legal policy. Wouldn't it be better to have a system in place where usage could be somewhat monitored, and make it easier for these people to get decent help?

But take away the legal policy and they won't just exist they will flourish, softness on drugs is not an option for any government. What is a option is to make the smuggling, trafficking and selling of class A drugs a capital punishment as it is in several country's. Zero tolerance certainly works for them, compare their drug related crime to our own.

[sphericalfox]

But take away the legal policy and they won't just exist they will flourish, softness on drugs is not an option for any government. What is a option is to make the smuggling, trafficking and selling of class A drugs a capital punishment as it is in several country's. Zero tolerance certainly works for them, compare their drug related crime to our own.

Which countries are those then?