Kony 2012

[NeilyBoy]

Btw that picture of gun-toting white men saving Africa says it all.

[Captain...]

Couldn't agree more James. Reckless, illogical bandwagons are fine when applied to irrelevant crap like fashion, but when applied to international policy it becomes really quite dangerous. When the clueless left wing Starbucks crowd can influence important issues with no qualification other than number, we're in deep, serious trouble.

What has being left-wing got to do with it? Or do the right wing mob support child armies? It has nothing to do with political ideals.

I think there certainly is just cause for lobbying and campaining the government when it is something they have direct control and influence over, such as the war in Iraq, intervention in Syria, political pressure on corrupt regimes, scrapping Trident, deporting Abu Qatada or demanding Tappin is released on bail.

This is not politics it is a crusade and a cynical (yet effective) attempt to exploit social media.

[dave the caveman]

What has being left-wing got to do with it? Or do the right wing mob support child armies? It has nothing to do with political ideals

It was just an observation that most people who engage in nonsensical fashion activism tend to be left leaning. Think student fees, free Tibet etc.

[Finnegan]

It was just an observation that most people who engage in nonsensical fashion activism tend to be left leaning. Think student fees, free Tibet etc.

The EDL.

[Daggers]

The EDL.

Bloody leftist EDL, them and the Sun-sponsored anti-paedo mobs we had a year or so ago.

And that's your answer James, this kind of thing has always happened in some form - for decades it would be the media whipping up a storm over an issue whereas now people don't buy papers in the same numbers. I honestly never cared who shot JR until an episode of Father Ted.

So does this come back to the Mail piece about right-wingers being thick? The lefties being better at using social media to raise conscience?

As it goes, I'd rather find people posting links about murderous dickwads on my wall than inviting me to do something on their fücking farm. Not sure I understand the venom, it's hardly like every policy decision is crafted by hashtag - the NHS bill is HUGELY unpopular but that is still being pushed through.

[I am Rod Hull]

The thing that struck me the most about this is the power of the internet and how much people can be influenced by it. Quite scary....

[General Smuts]

[Daggers]

Can I ask how people prefer their politics then?

If you aren't going to respond to popular movements of opinion I can only presume it's being advocated that we stick with a system whereby career-politicians make decisions in the best interests of their mates and their post-parliamentary careers, ignoring facts and/or public opinion.

To my mind Parliament has been home to the worst form of scum for decades now making dreadful decision after dreadful decision.

People can get all huffy about change through status liking if they want but isn't that fairer than having no input into a decision? Maybe loads of followers don't understand the finer detail about the issue but isn't that still democracy in action? We were promised a referendum on membership of the EU - maybe Dave was right not to bother because no movement of substance has struck up demanding one or withdrawal from Europe?

I'd love someone to explain to me why this is so bad because I'm just not getting it at the moment.

[Captain...]

Can I ask how people prefer their politics then?

If you aren't going to respond to popular movements of opinion I can only presume it's being advocated that we stick with a system whereby career-politicians make decisions in the best interests of their mates and their post-parliamentary careers, ignoring facts and/or public opinion.

To my mind Parliament has been home to the worst form of scum for decades now making dreadful decision after dreadful decision.

People can get all huffy about change through status liking if they want but isn't that fairer than having no input into a decision? Maybe loads of followers don't understand the finer detail about the issue but isn't that still democracy in action? We were promised a referendum on membership of the EU - maybe Dave was right not to bother because no movement of substance has struck up demanding one or withdrawal from Europe?

I'd love someone to explain to me why this is so bad because I'm just not getting it at the moment.

First off the country decided they wanted to have less of a say on how the country is run by voting no on AV last year, but that is a seperate issue.

My issue with the KONY 2012 thing is that it is not going to acheive anything, he is already a known entity a known concern and things are being done and have been done to combat him. If the government were ignoring the issue and burying their heads in the sand then it might be a different story.

The thing is this it is not a political decision to end this, it is not like changing a law, protecting the NHS or scrapping Trident, the consequences of making a military attack on Kony are unkown and as somebody has said in a previous post, these attempts have been made before and have had serious consequences.

My other issue is that it has massively raised the profile of a potential terrorist group or ally to terrorists, people who may not have been aware of him before my now see him as a potential ally in a war against the West. Any military attacks could see covert support from other terrorist groups.

If the government could click their fingers and make Kony disappear then I would back any campaign, but they can't.

(This is without addressing the motivation of the KONY 2012 group)

[NeilyBoy]

Can I ask how people prefer their politics then?

If you aren't going to respond to popular movements of opinion I can only presume it's being advocated that we stick with a system whereby career-politicians make decisions in the best interests of their mates and their post-parliamentary careers, ignoring facts and/or public opinion.

To my mind Parliament has been home to the worst form of scum for decades now making dreadful decision after dreadful decision.

People can get all huffy about change through status liking if they want but isn't that fairer than having no input into a decision? Maybe loads of followers don't understand the finer detail about the issue but isn't that still democracy in action? We were promised a referendum on membership of the EU - maybe Dave was right not to bother because no movement of substance has struck up demanding one or withdrawal from Europe?

I'd love someone to explain to me why this is so bad because I'm just not getting it at the moment.

I can't speak for everyone but my problem isn't with the power of people via the internet, it's this specific manifestation of that power to boost some questionable NFP's status whilst not really effecting any change at all.

[Daggers]

First off the country decided they wanted to have less of a say on how the country is run by voting no on AV last year, but that is a seperate issue.

My issue with the KONY 2012 thing is that it is not going to acheive anything, he is already a known entity a known concern and things are being done and have been done to combat him. If the government were ignoring the issue and burying their heads in the sand then it might be a different story.

The thing is this it is not a political decision to end this, it is not like changing a law, protecting the NHS or scrapping Trident, the consequences of making a military attack on Kony are unkown and as somebody has said in a previous post, these attempts have been made before and have had serious consequences.

My other issue is that it has massively raised the profile of a potential terrorist group or ally to terrorists, people who may not have been aware of him before my now see him as a potential ally in a war against the West. Any military attacks could see covert support from other terrorist groups.

If the government could click their fingers and make Kony disappear then I would back any campaign, but they can't.

(This is without addressing the motivation of the KONY 2012 group)

The AV issue is a separate one, I agree, so quickly: it didn't offer an input or any real change/benefit over the current messed up system, it was covered through personality rather than issues and the financial backing to one side outstripped that of the other. If anything, it highlighted how awful our system of government is.

Dave has spoken a lot over the last six months about the manner France conducts itself and how they should operate internationally, economically...but he hasn't uttered a word on this subject. More than that - he isn't the target, the video was made with the primary intention of shifting the focus of America's foreign policy which, by forcing it to respond to the public movement, may be a possibility.

And I'm not convinced by the whole "it's an advert for terrorists to get in touch" - I'm sure they're Facebook friends already.

[Zingari]

There are some excellent points being made on here about this type of “movement” .

It can appear a bullying , self promotional exercise by various groups who see themselves as the lantern jawed saviours of humanity , but as Daggers so rightly pointed out , most of us have so little real power regarding world events that we should be very wary of dismissing internet power, as it’s probably as good as we are ever going to get in terms of real effectiveness .

[Daggers]

...whilst not really effecting any change at all.

Surely you can only attempt to measure that in six/12/whatever months time?

[Captain...]

The AV issue is a separate one, I agree, so quickly: it didn't offer an input or any real change/benefit over the current messed up system, it was covered through personality rather than issues and the financial backing to one side outstripped that of the other. If anything, it highlighted how awful our system of government is.

Dave has spoken a lot over the last six months about the manner France conducts itself and how they should operate internationally, economically...but he hasn't uttered a word on this subject. More than that - he isn't the target, the video was made with the primary intention of shifting the focus of America's foreign policy which, by forcing it to respond to the public movement, may be a possibility.

And I'm not convinced by the whole "it's an advert for terrorists to get in touch" - I'm sure they're Facebook friends already.

Ok it is from Wikipedia but:

U.S. action against Kony

After the September 11th attacks, the United States declared the Lord's Resistance Army a terrorist group.^[17] On August 28, 2008, the United States Treasury Department placed Kony on its list of "Specially Designated Global Terrorists", a designation that carries financial and other penalties.^[18] It is not known whether Kony has any assets that are affected by this designation.

In 2008, the United States military assisted financially and logistically during the unsuccessful Garamba Offensive, code-named Operation Lightning Thunder. No US troops were directly involved, but US advisers and analysts provided intelligence, equipment, and fuel to Ugandan military counterparts.^[19] Though the offensive may have pushed Kony from his jungle camp, he was not captured.

In May 2010, U.S. President Barack Obama signed into law the Lord's Resistance Army Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act,^[20] legislation aimed at stopping Kony and the LRA. The bill passed unanimously in the United States Senate on March 11. On May 12, a motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill was agreed to by voice vote (two-thirds being in the affirmative) in the House of Representatives.^[21] In November Obama delivered a strategy document to Congress, asking for more funding to disarm Kony and the LRA.^[22] In October 2011, Obama authorized the deployment of approximately 100 combat-equipped U.S. troops to central Africa.^[23] Their goal is to help regional forces remove Kony and senior LRA leaders from the battlefield. "Although the U.S. forces are combat-equipped, they will only be providing information, advice, and assistance to partner nation forces, and they will not themselves engage LRA forces unless necessary for self-defense," Obama said in a letter to Congress.^{[citation needed]}

Which to me looks like they are very aware of Kony and have been for a while.

[NeilyBoy]

Surely you can only attempt to measure that in six/12/whatever months time?

I just find it hard to believe that this is going to be the clincher for the US govt when they've been making quiet moves towards dealing with this arsehole without the entire nation liking a 30 minute video and providing money to some previously unknown company (who clearly have priority issues when it comes to how that money's spent).

[NeilyBoy]

But I'm all in favour of internet power: See the failure of SOPA and the Libyan invasion for examples of where this has helped the world.

[Daggers]

It can appear a bullying , self promotional exercise by various groups who see themselves as the lantern jawed saviours of humanity

But doesn't that apply to any part of the political spectrum putting forward it's case on any issue?

And my jaw isn't lantern so much as jelly covered in floor fluff.

[Zingari]

But doesn't that apply to any part of the political spectrum putting forward it's case on any issue?

And my jaw isn't lantern so much as jelly covered in floor fluff.

yes indeed , it's as if they all bathe themselves in "oil of altruism" before they speak .

[Daggers]

Which to me looks like they are very aware of Kony and have been for a while.

I'm aware of the existence of Ibstock but I've never felt pressured enough to visit. Maybe a Twitter campaign could convince me to give up some time and zoom to look at it in Googlemaps?

Do you reckon that the US is doing all it can? Do you believe they could attach further conditions to aid to the government?

Cameron has spoken more frequently and publicly about the illegality of homosexuality in the country than he has the internal conflict and actions his government is taking to support/encourage the Ugandan government to deal with it.

I remain unconvinced that social media movements are a bad thing, which is what my original question related to.

The same arguments seem to be thrown up here as they were for Occupy - that there is no tangible outcome at the end, that there is no knowledge where the end is even.

If you view these things as stimulating debate, as conciousness raising activities then it can be thought of that the endgame is a long-term shift in public norms and values. It's the thing we are doing here - and that it's featuring on the news, feeding into opinions and aspirations - in turn feeding into future political policies.

It's not like the campaign against the DE bill or SOPA Ireland where a social movement is gearing up to have a direct and dramatic effect on legislation through pressure groups, civil disobedience and direct action and can be measured by a distinct outcome in a finite time-frame.

I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes.

[Captain...]

Do you reckon that the US is doing all it can? Do you believe they could attach further conditions to aid to the government?

They probably could do more but have other priorities, I think social media and public pressure should be used to help Governments form policies but not dictate priorities. Social media will be effective when public opinion is different to that of the Government, but in this case the US Government and KONY2012 action group are in complete agreement.

What KONY 2012 and the public don't have information on is what secret operations the government are currently conducting against Kony and other international terrorist groups. They could have spent 5 years getting a man on the inside, getting close to Kony and could be close to ending it.

[General Smuts]

[I am Rod Hull]

[AdamN]

[Out Foxed]

[I am Rod Hull]

My 14 year old daughter asked me if i`d seen this video and told me that it was amazing, she wants to donate to get the bracelet (not with my cash she aint).

Targeting kids with the promise of a poster and a dog tag on a piece of string bracelet, that will make you look cool at school.... Classic.