Netherlands - Germany (Group B) Match Thread

[Finnegan]

It's just not clever or even thought through. In fact, I'd bet anyone could do the same with the England squad. And in my personal opinion, I think the fact there are so many different ethnicities in the German squad is cause for celebration given the 'ethnic cleansing' during WW2, not a cause for mockery

[Guest MattP]

it's the same sort of nasty sentiment they have in France where their own fans snarl about the black and North African players "aren't French.

That 98 team wasn't really completely French though was it?

Viera was born in Senegal, Desailly in Ghana, Youri was an Algerian, Thuram was Guadaloupe, Trezeguet moved to Argentina aged 2, Karembeu was from a remote island.....

Not racist to point it out at all, fact.

The England cricket team get enough stick on here for having ONE player who shouldn't qualify out of eleven yet similar people bizarrely stick up for other nations doing much worse.

[purpleronnie]

That 98 team wasn't really completely French though was it?

Viera was born in Senegal, Desailly in Ghana, Youri was an Algerian, Thuram was Guadaloupe, Trezeguet moved to Argentina aged 2, Karembeu was from a remote island.....

Not racist to point it out at all, fact.

The England cricket team get enough stick on here for having ONE player who shouldn't qualify out of eleven yet similar people bizarrely stick up for other nations doing much worse.

one?

[Guest MattP]

one?

Yes Trott.

Who else do you have in mind currently in the side that wouldn't qualify via parentage?

[purpleronnie]

Yes Trott.

Who else do you have in mind currently in the side that wouldn't qualify via parentage?

You were mentioning people born in other countries playing for france...so what?

[Guest MattP]

You were mentioning people born in other countries playing for france...so what?

Yes because they shouldn't qualify to play for France and should not have been allowed, I'm exactly the same with Trott and England, he shouldn't be in the side.

I just find it strange the same people that mock the English team for doing a fraction of what the French did do so whilst finding what the French and Germans do now is "wonderful".

[James.]

I just find it strange the same people that mock the English team for doing a fraction of what the French did do so whilst finding what the French and Germans do now is "wonderful".

Which people?!

Can't say I've ever heard shen or Finnegan voice strong opinions on the nationality of English cricket players...

[purpleronnie]

Yes because they shouldn't qualify to play for France and should not have been allowed, I'm exactly the same with Trott and England, he shouldn't be in the side.

I just find it strange the same people that mock the English team for doing a fraction of what the French did do so whilst finding what the French and Germans do now is "wonderful".

How could they not qualify to play for France but did?....and how come trott plays for us, do you mean they in your opinion shouldnt be allowed or that somehow they bypassed the laws?

[Guest MattP]

Which people?!

Can't say I've ever heard shen or Finnegan voice strong opinions on the nationality of English cricket players...

Finners has made a few digs at the England (and Wales) cricket side for the nationality of the players.

[Guest MattP]

How could they not qualify to play for France but did?....and how come trott plays for us, do you mean they in your opinion shouldnt be allowed or that somehow they bypassed the laws?

In my opinion they shouldn't.

I believe you play for a country you should either be born there or have parentage from that country.

These residency laws that were introduced are ridiculous and make a mockery of the game, people will wake up in 2022 when the Qatar team turn up with 11 Brazilian players they have swept out the country for $$$$.

[21st Century Fox]

In my opinion they shouldn't.

I believe you play for a country you should either be born there or have parentage from that country.

These residency laws that were introduced are ridiculous and make a mockery of the game, people will wake up in 2022 when the Qatar team turn up with 11 Brazilian players they have swept out the country for $$$$.

Other than Desailly they're all from French territories. Hardly the same.

[James.]

Finners has made a few digs at the England (and Wales) cricket side for the nationality of the players.

I can believe that but that's because he likes winding people up, the dirty troll. He doesn't actually care or know anything about cricket.

Anyway out of interest how many of the German players weren't born or don't have parentage in Germany and as such wouldn't qualify for the current team?

[Guest MattP]

Other than Desailly they're all from French territories. Hardly the same.

Most of them gained independance before they were born.

On that logic we should be able to pick up Australians at will.

[21st Century Fox]

Most of them gained independance before they were born.

On that logic we should be able to pick up Australians at will.

And their parents would still hold French passports, making them French citizens.

[Guest MattP]

I can believe that but that's because he likes winding people up, the dirty troll. He doesn't actually care or know anything about cricket.

Anyway out of interest how many of the German players weren't born or don't have parentage in Germany and as such wouldn't qualify for the current team?

No idea to be honest, I've known the French ones for years but have not looked at the German side, I know Klose and Podolski are Poles and Ozil is a turk but I'm sure I've read Gomez's parents were Spanish. Let's be honest it's all a bit of a joke now anyway. May as well introduce transfer fees and toss citizenships around.

[Guest MattP]

And their parents would still hold French passports, making them French citizens.

Nope.

if born in France of parents born before independence in a colony/territory in the past under French sovereignty.

[21st Century Fox]

Nope.

Got me there.

Although why would footballers be any different to anyone else who can change their citizenship and nationality. National football teams should be a representation of their country, they'd become detached from reality. If immigrants are allowed to shape the course of a country culturally and socially, why should sport be any different? There aren't any examples in the 98 French team of any loopholes being used to secure better players they mirror the make-up of France's ethic make-up.

[Guest MattP]

Got me there.

Although why would footballers be any different to anyone else who can change their citizenship and nationality. National football teams should be a representation of their country, they'd become detached from reality. If immigrants are allowed to shape the course of a country culturally and socially, why should sport be any different? There aren't any examples in the 98 French team of any loopholes being used to secure better players they mirror the make-up of France's ethic make-up.

Because it can lead to farce and money taking over, like i've mentioned Qatars plan (according to 4-4-2 magazine) is in 2018 to have a influx of decent South Americans into their league so they can all represent the national team at the 2022 world cup, so unlike immigration etc it will just be a bit of a charade representing the nation.

Suppose its similar to why we still have a transfer system in football detached from normal employment law, it would be chaos if any player could just move club by club giving four weeks notice.

[shen]

Anyway out of interest how many of the German players weren't born or don't have parentage in Germany and as such wouldn't qualify for the current team?

Only Podolski and Klose were not born in Germany. According to his wiki, Podolski moved to Germany when he was two and qualifies under the 'Aussiedler' status which has been around since WW2 (basically, it's status granted to Poles from areas that used to be German), i.e. his grandparents were German. Arguably he's more German than Klose despite his father holding German nationality.

No idea to be honest, I've known the French ones for years but have not looked at the German side, I know Klose and Podolski are Poles and Ozil is a turk but I'm sure I've read Gomez's parents were Spanish. Let's be honest it's all a bit of a joke now anyway. May as well introduce transfer fees and toss citizenships around.

Özil was born in Germany and considers himself a third-generation German, while Gomez's mother is German and he himself was born and raised in Germany. And now that you're asking me to be honest, I think you're the joke here. Firstly, get your facts straight; and no this doesn't mean ending a sentence with "fact" as you do in post #102. Secondly, acknowledge that nationality isn't a definite term. Technically, nationality is determined by place of birth. But you and I both acknowledge that parentage and cultural upbringing should also come into account when establishing one's true national identity. Yet, when you point out German and French players you think should be ineligible, you conveniently ignore their national identity because it doesn't fit your agenda. And that is why you come across as a racial, or should I say national, bigot.

[21st Century Fox]

Because it can lead to farce and money taking over, like i've mentioned Qatars plan (according to 4-4-2 magazine) is in 2018 to have a influx of decent South Americans into their league so they can all represent the national team at the 2022 world cup, so unlike immigration etc it will just be a bit of a charade representing the nation.

Suppose its similar to why we still have a transfer system in football detached from normal employment law, it would be chaos if any player could just move club by club giving four weeks notice.

But then you're shutting out the genuine examples and the national team becomes sterile and doesn't represent everyone in that country. Why is football any different to any other aspect of life or business? The reverse would also happen though you'd have legal citizens of countries representing other countries they have barely any affiliation with. A player born in say Algeria moving to France when he's two, legally becoming a French citizen but being forced to represent Algeria even though he may feel little allegiance or affiliation, culturally or socially to his country of birth, though in any other walk of life his achievements would be labelled French.

[Guest MattP]

Özil was born in Germany and considers himself a third-generation German, while Gomez's mother is German and he himself was born and raised in Germany. And now that you're asking me to be honest, I think you're the joke here. Firstly, get your facts straight; and no this doesn't mean ending a sentence with "fact" as you do in post #102. Secondly, acknowledge that nationality isn't a definite term. Technically, nationality is determined by place of birth. But you and I both acknowledge that parentage and cultural upbringing should also come into account when establishing one's true national identity. Yet, when you point out German and French players you think should be ineligible, you conveniently ignore their national identity because it doesn't fit your agenda. And that is why you come across as a racial, or should I say national, bigot.

What a load of absolute bollocks you speak and you've got the gall to throw an insult in at the end.

Like it or not you're nationality is defined by your birthplace and your parents, always has and always will be, you can dress it up any way you want about living in a place and culturall etc but it means squat, if I decided to move to Venezuela now and live the rest of my life there I'm an Englishmen in Venezuela, I'll never be Venezuelan as I don;t carry that blood and I wasn't born there. People like you seem to think nationality is a choice. It isn't and it never will be.

You have completely missed the point to be honest when you start rambling on about French players parentage, if they had French parentage I wouldn't be moaning, the ones I mentioned dont. That's why I mentioned it.

Read what I'm saying, not what you want to think I'm saying.

[Guest MattP]

But then you're shutting out the genuine examples and the national team becomes sterile and doesn't represent everyone in that country. Why is football any different to any other aspect of life or business? The reverse would also happen though you'd have legal citizens of countries representing other countries they have barely any affiliation with. A player born in say Algeria moving to France when he's two, legally becoming a French citizen but being forced to represent Algeria even though he may feel little allegiance or affiliation, culturally or socially to his country of birth, though in any other walk of life his achievements would be labelled French.

Fair point, maybe FIFA should have a cut off point. It's a hard thing to police tbh.

I don't even like the fact you can represent your grandparents country tbh. Just find the whole thing a bit of a farce.

[shen]

What a load of absolute bollocks you speak and you've got the gall to throw an insult in at the end.

You have completely missed the point to be honest when you start rambling on about French players parentage, if they had French parentage I wouldn't be moaning, the ones I mentioned dont. That's why I mentioned it.

I don't speak a load of bollocks, and don't get your knickers in a twist over my comment at the end. It wasn't an insult, I merely explained why it is you come across as a bigot. I'm not the one 'rambling on about French parentage' (where did you get that from?). In fact, I left out the dissection of the French players on purpose. But just to be clear, of those you mentioned only two (Vieira and Desailly) shouldn't qualify for the French team according to your own acceptable criteria (parentage and/or birthplace)! Why purposefully mislead by inflating the number of unqualified players if not to suit your own agenda? You overreact against my comments, yet you say that 21stCF's comments make a fair point? He basically just expanded what I meant with an example

[Finnegan]

So Rob Earnshaw, who's lived in Cardiff as long as he can pretty much remember, sounds Welsh, acts Welsh, is - to all intents and purposes Welsh - shouldn't represent us because his parents moved him here from Zambia as an infant?

Crock of shit.

What about Michael Owen? Qualifies because, by chance, he was born in an English hospital?

What if you're born while your parents are living abroad? What if your parents are dual nationality?

There's so much to consider, a person's national identity is very, very personal - it's unique to them and it's how they identify themselves. If they meet FIFA / UEFA's criteria (and the country's criteria) to be a citizen then frankly they should be able to represent the country they feel their affinity for.

I'd much rather see a French side full of foreign-born players who have been raised in France and consider themselves part of a modern, multi-cultural France than a Jamaican, Trinidadian or Granadan side full of London-born, third or fourth generation Englishmen just claiming tenuous links through grandparents just to play some international football.

And, yes, there is a hell of a lot of racism in France in regards their immigrant population, French born or otherwise, far more so than in this country. Especially directed at Muslim North Africans and, yes, a lot of which spills in to sport.

[James.]

Same with Giggs really.