davieG Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 Most mundane jobs such as cleaning need some sort of qualification. Normally Health Safety a Site certificate machinary handling plus experience. I've had two types of jobs, ina hosiery warehouse and security. If it was not for the security I would not have the trust factor on my CV I'm assuming you tend to get them through your employer rather than night school, not saying you don't but from my experience the companies I've worked for or come into contact with provide that, a few of them need regular refresher courses. But you prove my point even further that on this point at the very least BornBlue is talking nonsense.
Rincewind Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 Yes but they say it is good for the country so we can all be cheered up by that.
Smudge Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 That's absolutely not true apart from labouring, cleaning and the most mundane of jobs qualifications are most definitely a requirement even when they're not really needed. Employers look upon them as a sign that the individual is capable of achievement etc. Of course experience is also paramount but most of the people this affects will have some work experience being over 24 and if they haven't then according to you they're not going to get the job anyway so qualifications will certainly help them get work experience opportunities. It depends on the job you're wanting to fill. If a guy applied for a job as a supervisor and he told me he had spent 20 years in the industry with a well known competitor, I'd certainly hire him. In fact if someone came to me from outside the industry and just finished a course on the industry I was in, I'd almost always pick the guy with the most experience.
AdamN Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 It depends on the job you're wanting to fill. If a guy applied for a job as a supervisor and he told me he had spent 20 years in the industry with a well known competitor, I'd certainly hire him. In fact if someone came to me from outside the industry and just finished a course on the industry I was in, I'd almost always pick the guy with the most experience. While that may be the case, that shouldn't stop people from getting qualified in the job they're after. An employer is still going to look more favourably upon someone who has the qualifications but no experience, than someone who has neither.
Rincewind Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 Yet how many times do the ads say experience is not essential as full training will be given. What a load of BS. Even as I fill out the application form I think if somebody applies that is simalar in everything apart from that they have experience I have no chance. And with 50 plus applicants per job I have to get lucky as well as having a good CV and good interview technique. I expect the ads have to say that though. They don't seem to bother so much with charity work. The shop I'm working the others are more than happy to help the ones with little experience like me. Will even give a reference if needed. You cannot gain experience unless given a chance and the older you get the lfewer years experieance you can gain at a new type of job.
davieG Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 It depends on the job you're wanting to fill. If a guy applied for a job as a supervisor and he told me he had spent 20 years in the industry with a well known competitor, I'd certainly hire him. In fact if someone came to me from outside the industry and just finished a course on the industry I was in, I'd almost always pick the guy with the most experience. That's not what BornBlue was saying though - "employers (rightly or wrongly) don't generally give a flying fvck about qualifications, they want experience" which is what i was responding too, they obviously do give fvck and of course there will be exceptions. When applying for a job you're generally looking for something to give you an edge over other people, having a qualification as well as experience can give you that edge and as I said if we're talking about people over 24 unless they are looking for a total career change will undoubtedly have experience therefore, especially in these times when so many are chasing so few jobs that extra string to your bow will help. I've worked in private industry and local government and been responsible for a lot of recruitment and virtually every job has required a qualification of some sort as minimum starting point then others have needed qualifications and experience very few have required just experience so to say you don't need qualifications only experience is rubbish.
ADK Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 All industries have entry level positions. These will require qualifications.
Daggers Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 You can debate it all you like but if we're talking about job prospects, which is the primary reason adults would undertake further training, No it isn't. employers (rightly or wrongly) don't generally give a flying fvck about qualifications, they want experience. No they don't. The first proper sift is always for qualification standard (having got rid of everything on scented paper or in Comic Sans). If we're talking about a better educated population for societal reasons, well I'm afraid doing a night-course in Microsoft Word skills is not going to contribute much to the country's pool of intellect. Has there been any mention of M/S skills? Nope - but feel free to carry on polishing your badge of ignorance. If we're talking about education for personal reasons, ie. so people can 'better themselves', then they should fvcking well pay for it themselves. I wouldn't get free gym membership if I wanted to 'better myself' by getting hyper fit. And, ladies and gentlemen, if you limit your education then you too can come across as intellectually stunted as this
Leicfox Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 Maybe we are talking about an education system that is better for people from the age of five onwards but that would cost money and banks cannot fund it because of.... well let's not go into that. I was reading this today that highlights your point to a certain extent but I believe it's not all about the funding although if public schools had the same teacher to pupil ratio as private schools it would certainly help. A lack of discipline in schools, poor parenting and the celebrity culture that's turning kids away from core subjects and into the performing arts which many will enjoy at school and maybe do better in but not many will go on to have a profession in are equally to blame. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4413625/Its-gone-from-add-to-worse.html
1964FOX Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 And there may however be a nce loophole for those close to retirement. Take a three year course at the age of 62, finish just in time to retire and as long as you don't have a pensions income above 21,000 you won't have to pay it back. In theory you could live a student life for the last three years of your working life. Bring on the party's.
Smudge Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 That's not what BornBlue was saying though - "employers (rightly or wrongly) don't generally give a flying fvck about qualifications, they want experience" which is what i was responding too, they obviously do give fvck and of course there will be exceptions. When applying for a job you're generally looking for something to give you an edge over other people, having a qualification as well as experience can give you that edge and as I said if we're talking about people over 24 unless they are looking for a total career change will undoubtedly have experience therefore, especially in these times when so many are chasing so few jobs that extra string to your bow will help. I've worked in private industry and local government and been responsible for a lot of recruitment and virtually every job has required a qualification of some sort as minimum starting point then others have needed qualifications and experience very few have required just experience so to say you don't need qualifications only experience is rubbish. I wasn't responding to Mr Blue, I was saying that in my experience, for certain jobs up to and including lower to middle management, that hasn't been my experience. I'm not for one second saying that the industries you worked in had a different set of standards, I'm sure many do. Coming from the construction industry, a man with a skill would have earned that experience on the job, he's now made a foreman and maybe, as long as he's capable made it to supervisor over several foremen. That person is valuable, in my industry that value would not be offset because he left school at 16 without a grade to his name.
Daggers Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 http://www.thesun.co...d-to-worse.html So, in a made-up survey in the Sun which contradicts another made-up survey it took me but seconds to find on Google, England comes 24th out of 196? Wow, it's terrible that England is better at Maths than 172 other countries. Fortunately it hasn't prevented the nation's ignorant parents from posting on news sites that their Jemima or Justin is top in Maths but has been badly let down by teachers.
Rincewind Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 Maybe other countries have improved. I saw the Sun in the link so never bothered with it until Daggers quoted it.
Smudge Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 All industries have entry level positions. These will require qualifications. That's just not true is it? Farming Construction Oil Fishing Cleaning Waste Disposal Merchant Marine Docks Transportation (apart from a driving license) Mining All heavily reliant on a large, comparatively uneducated work force.
Daggers Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 Maybe other countries have improved. I saw the Sun in the link so never bothered with it until Daggers quoted it. Maybe things like per capita spending, class sizes, the use of testing and beatings come into play?
Rincewind Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 I can think of qualifcations needed for the majority of them abeit outside of school.
Smudge Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 While that may be the case, that shouldn't stop people from getting qualified in the job they're after. An employer is still going to look more favourably upon someone who has the qualifications but no experience, than someone who has neither. I didn't suggest that it should did I?
Smudge Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 I can think of qualifcations needed for the majority of them abeit outside of school. This whole thread is about adult further education, which requires a school of some sort.
Daggers Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 I went to the School of Hard Cocks and the University of Huey Green.
ADK Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 That's just not true is it? Farming Construction Oil Fishing Cleaning Waste Disposal Merchant Marine Docks Transportation (apart from a driving license) Mining All heavily reliant on a large, comparatively uneducated work force. But this is about people who might want to change career. Most of those jobs require physical strength so would not be suitable for some people. I don't know the exact numbers but i was always led to believe unskilled jobs were not so common these days.
Rincewind Posted 6 July 2012 Posted 6 July 2012 They are not mainly because of the health and safety laws. If you do a labourours job on a construction site there are different levels of cards needed from the beginner to foreman/manager. hard hats have to be worn of course and safety boots. Even cleaning if using certain cleaning machines there more than likely courses in using them as well as a knowledge of cleaning chemicals used. A lot of warehouse work now involves a forklift. This is why I said these qualifications can be earned after leaving school. now they may done during an apprentice but if a person has being doing the job anyway before the course came about it would not take much to pass. If a person did it as a change of career they would not have the experience.
MooseBreath Posted 7 July 2012 Posted 7 July 2012 The cards and certificates needed to do those jobs are just paperwork, they're nothing like an a-level or access course. They are in no way a barrier to entry.
ozleicester Posted 7 July 2012 Posted 7 July 2012 we should ban ALL free education, if you cant afford to pay you probably arent worthy of and wont make use of education anyway. Once we stop all those poorer people getting educated, they can go to work on my plot of land, ill protect them and ensure their safety. Cmon end free education.. its the way of the future.
Smudge Posted 7 July 2012 Posted 7 July 2012 But this is about people who might want to change career. Most of those jobs require physical strength so would not be suitable for some people. I don't know the exact numbers but i was always led to believe unskilled jobs were not so common these days. You are quite right, this thread is about people who want to get further education so they can increase their skill set. What you said was that qualifications are required for entry level jobs which just isn't right. I come from the construction and mining industry and I'd say 70% of the workforce have basic educational abilities. That is they can read, write and have basic arithmetic skills.
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