150,000 will lose right to an adult education

[Steven]

Again in the style of davieG.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/150000-will-lose-right-to-an-adult-education-7918002.html

How stupid is this to effectively deny somebody the possibility to better themselves and so help the country as a whole. To think I voted for the shower of ***** called Lib-Dems.

150,000 will lose right to an adult education

Civil servants and unions warn the move will affect many futures and there will be college job losses

More than 150,000 adults could be robbed of a "second chance" in education because of plans to make them pay the full cost of their courses, civil servants have warned.

At present, further education students over the age of 24 only have to meet half the cost, while under-19s are not charged. But from next August, the Government intends to compel all over-24s taking A-levels or access courses to pay the full amount, and is introducing loans up to the value of £3,700 to cover the cost. Only those seeking basic qualifications in literacy and numeracy will receive grants which they do not have to pay back.

The move is going ahead despite a warning from civil servants to ministers in an impact assessment that 45 per cent of those on such courses would be put off by a loans system.

If the assessment is right, almost 170,000 fewer students would take the courses, prompting closures and redundancies amongst staff, lecturers' leaders warned.

At present, there are about 376,000 people on the courses, one of the most popular being A-level business studies. The qualification has helped thousands of people – many of them women returning to work after having children – to start their own businesses.

Gordon Marsden, Labour's spokesman on further education and skills, has written to the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, demanding that the loans system is reassessed. "Adult further education is rightly viewed as a key lever of social mobility, by giving people who missed out first time around a second chance to gain qualifications," he said.

"Faced with the prospect of having to take out loans worth up to £4,000 a year, how many people from the most vulnerable and disadvantaged communities will feel able to take that bold step back into learning?"

Pam Tatlow, chief executive of the university think-tank million+, accused the Coalition of delivering a "double whammy" to mature students. "If they have to pay off their further education loads over a 30-year period, how many of them are going to go on and take out another 30-year loan to cover the cost of a higher education course?" she asked.

Union leaders warned the plan was bound to lead to significant job losses as well as destroying the hopes of thousands of adults.

Regulations to introduce the new loans system are expected to be laid before the House of Commons ahead of the summer recess. They will be managed by the Student Loans Company, which already deals with undergraduate payments.

The impact assessment says: "The central estimate is based on an assessment of research which suggests that around 55 per cent of the learners who would have been supported... would go ahead with such a system of loans."

A spokesman for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills said there would be a 40-day period after the regulations had been tabled for any MP to table a "negative resolution" against them. "The introduction of loans is an important change for this sector," he said, "so we are working closely with colleges and training organisations to ensure they have the information they need to prepare. Take-up of loans and the impact on learners will be monitored closely."

The Association of Colleges said that although it had "serious concerns" about the loans, it feared any alternative scheme would mean worse cuts.

Late learners: From waiter to barrister

'The option has to be there for adults to return to learning'

Saiful Islam, 39, was working as a waiter in an Indian restaurant when he enrolled on an Access to Higher Education course in 1995. He now practices as a barrister for top chambers in London

"I left school at 16 without GCSEs. In my early twenties I was working as a waiter in an Indian restaurant. I had always regretted not studying and wanted a change of direction, so I set my sights on studying to qualify as a barrister and enrolled on an Access to Higher Education course at Barnfield College in Luton. I had to work at the restaurant full-time while studying, finishing at about 1am then going to college in the morning, but fortunately the course was inexpensive in those days. The course enabled me to get a place on a two-year, accelerated law degree at the University of Hertfordshire. By 2003 I had qualified as a solicitor and transferred to the bar two years later. Access courses are invaluable for people who want to improve their chances later in life. I was born in Bangladesh and when I look at poorer countries like it, I think it is a lack of these sorts of opportunities that holds them back. The option has to be there for adults to return to learning and it would be very unfortunate if it became more difficult to do."

'If the funding changed and I couldn't do another course I'd be gutted'

Margaret Green, 49, from Golcar, Huddersfield, left school at the age of 16. She worked in a carpet factory for 23 years and is now a Pharmacy Assistant at the Huddersfield Royal Infirmary. With funding from her local NHS trust, she completed a part-time Pharmacy Apprenticeship with Bradford College in March

"If I'd had to pay for it myself in today's climate I really couldn't have afforded it. I would have just carried on doing what I'd been doing for years. The VQ [Vocational Qualification] has given me so much more confidence. Now I can go forward with my learning, I'm not afraid of it any more. I left school at 16. All those years ago if you had thoughts of Higher Education or university your mother and father would say, 'You can get that out of your head, that's not for people like us. You need to go out and make a living.' So that's what I did. I've worked full-time since leaving school. After having each one of my children I went straight back to work. Then I was given this opportunity last year so I just bit the bullet. I want to do another apprenticeship next year so I can be a pharmacy technician. If the funding were to change and I couldn't do another course I'd be absolutely gutted".

[Bryn]

I thought we were trying to wean society off the idea that they can get everything for free?

If there's a loan system in place is similar to the student loan system, in that you only pay it back if you can afford it, then I think this is entirely reasonable. The state has already paid to educate these people to the age of 16 and offered to do it until 19. Giving people a free ride until the age of 24 and onwards seems like a massive money sink to me.

It's not just immigrants, the unemployed and teenage mothers that get handouts, you know, we all have to tighten our belts.

[Rincewind]

ATM unemployed and senior citezens get a reduced rate for night school courses woldthis effect them? If it was not for reduced fees I would not be able to do courses that will improve my chances of finding work.

I expect it is the same for young people who are on a low wage. Theywill not be able to improve because of the cost involved.

[Daggers]

I thought we were trying to wean society off the idea that they can get everything for free?

If there's a loan system in place is similar to the student loan system, in that you only pay it back if you can afford it, then I think this is entirely reasonable. The state has already paid to educate these people to the age of 16 and offered to do it until 19. Giving people a free ride until the age of 24 and onwards seems like a massive money sink to me.

It's not just immigrants, the unemployed and teenage mothers that get handouts, you know, we all have to tighten our belts.

School does not suit some learners for a number of reasons including brain development and home influences. It seems to me glib phrases like 'belt tightening' are trotted out whenever someone doesn't want to contribute. The government managed to find money pretty quickly to delay the tax on petrol and every other U-turn they've acted recently - are any of them more important than educating the populace?

To have a better educated populace is a good thing for society, to place blocks is short-sighted and stupid. We are not talking about an equivalence with students studying degrees - this is for A-levels and equivalent. The loan system will not operate in a similar way to undergraduate loans, it will be the same as CDLs meaning the person will have to recoup the cost in advanced salary. Do you believe that getting an A-level will advance a person's salary by £3,700? Do you feel an A-level course is worth £3,700? I don't.

[Bryn]

School does not suit some learners for a number of reasons including brain development and home influences. It seems to me glib phrases like 'belt tightening' are trotted out whenever someone doesn't want to contribute. The government managed to find money pretty quickly to delay the tax on petrol and every other U-turn they've acted recently - are any of them more important than educating the populace?

To have a better educated populace is a good thing for society, to place blocks is short-sighted and stupid. We are not talking about an equivalence with students studying degrees - this is for A-levels and equivalent. The loan system will not operate in a similar way to undergraduate loans, it will be the same as CDLs meaning the person will have to recoup the cost in advanced salary. Do you believe that getting an A-level will advance a person's salary by £3,700? Do you feel an A-level course is worth £3,700? I don't.

I agree with what you're saying almost in it's entirety, although I'd be reticent to describe our society as one which has barriers to education, as I simply don't think that is true. But if the simple fact is there's no money then who pays for it? I think it's fantastic that education in this country is free and easily accessible until the age of 19, but I think you have to have a cut off point somewhere.

Perhaps a better solution would be to permit people who left school at 16 an extra one to two years of free education at some point in their lives, putting them on a more even keel with those who stayed onto sixth form?

[Captain...]

Kill a man, get a free education!

[Webbo]

So you're not actually"losing the right to an adult education" you're just being asked to pay for it yourself?

[acooling08]

If teenagers going to University have to take on massive debts to study, why shouldn't adults pay for A-Levels (since they already had the chance to do them for free at aged 17-18)?

Edit: Going from what Shrapnel said, do prisoners get to take A-Levels for free? If they do then I just lose faith in the justice system all together.

[RobHawk]

The current government don't have a clue what they are doing when it comes to further and higher education!

To add some other interesting insight - Are you all aware that Tution Fees for Part time students are arising to around £3500/year. Now some of the more learned members of the forum may also be aware that the government has introduced a series of loans that are available to fund these courses. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as previously only very low income part time students could get the grants to cover the £650 per yr fees. So based on that information the goverment have made Part time study more available and affordable to everyone right?

Wrong! Any person who already has a degree, who may be studying as a form of re-training - maybe lost their job and is looking for a change in direction - Those people are not entitled to receive loans for part time study and will need to cover the full course costs themselves - Not going to happen.

The majority of part time students are people in exactly this situation! I am already aware that institutions such as the OU are very worried about their intake this September!!!

[Rincewind]

A levels was not available to everyone when I was at school. Only the Grammars school kids could go Uni and in the Comprehensive only those in the top one or two forms took GCSE So for those people made redundant at 50 plus it is hard to gain those grades needed for jobs that need qualifications or if they want a change of direction.

[AdamN]

If teenagers going to University have to take on massive debts to study, why shouldn't adults pay for A-Levels (since they already had the chance to do them for free at aged 17-18)?

Not everybody knows what they want to do at the age of 16. To me it seems far more productive to have someone grow up, mature a bit and decide they want to take their English and Maths A-Levels than for them to rush into it and do something completely irrelevant to their future plans.

My A-Levels did their job in getting me into the RAF, but once I left they were pretty much irrelevant. Physics, Biology, Media Studies and Music Tech - while all things I was/am interested in - didn't really help me in any when it came to getting me onto my current uni course. I would have been far better off having taken Computing and Maths in place of Media and Biology.

[Captain...]

If teenagers going to University have to take on massive debts to study, why shouldn't adults pay for A-Levels (since they already had the chance to do them for free at aged 17-18)?

Edit: Going from what Shrapnel said, do prisoners get to take A-Levels for free? If they do then I just lose faith in the justice system all together.

Read the lifers thread, it is not free, because prisoners have to work and don't get paid for it, but it is readily available.

It is not the justice system that are at fault they are trying to educate and rehabilitate prisoners, it is the education system and proposals like this that are at fault. Why do we need to wait for someone to commit a crime before we try and help and educate them and give them a better chance in life?

Of course you are right, if it is prohibitively expensive for teenagers to go to university then it should be for adults too, but the solution here is not that we should price adults out of education, but that we should make it more freely available for all and abolish these ridiculous tuition fees.

[MooseBreath]

I doubt many adults take a-levels or an access course without the intention of topping up to a degree. An a-level or access course alone isn't going to improve your prospects much. So if these people are commited to fully funding a degree, I doubt an access course is much more of a stretch.

As always with education, it has never been free, its just a question of who pays for it, the general tax payer or the direct beneficiary.

[Rincewind]

If there was a good education system outside of prison there would be no need of one inside of one. This applies for most things, Housing=hostels Jobs-scrongers hospitals-waiting list for operations The list goes on and on.

What is more important caring for people of the country or money?

[ozleicester]

A stupid population is much easier to control than an educated and free thinking one

[davieG]

A stupid population is much easier to control than an educated and free thinking one

That doesn't work on Foxestalk.

[ozleicester]

That doesn't work on Foxestalk.

FT is... different.

[Leicfox]

If teenagers going to University have to take on massive debts to study, why shouldn't adults pay for A-Levels (since they already had the chance to do them for free at aged 17-18)?

Edit: Going from what Shrapnel said, do prisoners get to take A-Levels for free? If they do then I just lose faith in the justice system all together.

This is what you get at Gartree for 0.90p per session.

http://www.insidetime.org/info-regimes2.asp?nameofprison=HMP_GARTREE#education

[ADK]

Education is a public good so it is only right the government subsidise it. Not sure what they think they are going to achieve apart from more unqualified adults with less chance of getting a job.

[Daggers]

A stupid population is much easier to control than an educated and free thinking one

Absolutely this.

That doesn't work on Foxestalk.

[Rincewind]

I know the editor of this magazine. He works with ex-prisoners, governers and probation officers so has experience of the prison system. He visist prisons all over the country. If you need to know anything about what goes o0n inside a prison it is best to get the information that has first hand knowledge.

http://insidenoutuk.wordpress.com/

[Saxondale]

You can debate it all you like but if we're talking about job prospects, which is the primary reason adults would undertake further training, employers (rightly or wrongly) don't generally give a flying fvck about qualifications, they want experience.

If we're talking about a better educated population for societal reasons, well I'm afraid doing a night-course in Microsoft Word skills is not going to contribute much to the country's pool of intellect.

If we're talking about education for personal reasons, ie. so people can 'better themselves', then they should fvcking well pay for it themselves. I wouldn't get free gym membership if I wanted to 'better myself' by getting hyper fit.

[Rincewind]

Maybe we are talking about an education system that is better for people from the age of five onwards but that would cost money and banks cannot fund it because of.... well let's not go into that.

[davieG]

You can debate it all you like but if we're talking about job prospects, which is the primary reason adults would undertake further training, employers (rightly or wrongly) don't generally give a flying fvck about qualifications, they want experience.

If we're talking about a better educated population for societal reasons, well I'm afraid doing a night-course in Microsoft Word skills is not going to contribute much to the country's pool of intellect.

If we're talking about education for personal reasons, ie. so people can 'better themselves', then they should fvcking well pay for it themselves. I wouldn't get free gym membership if I wanted to 'better myself' by getting hyper fit.

That's absolutely not true apart from labouring, cleaning and the most mundane of jobs qualifications are most definitely a requirement even when they're not really needed. Employers look upon them as a sign that the individual is capable of achievement etc. Of course experience is also paramount but most of the people this affects will have some work experience being over 24 and if they haven't then according to you they're not going to get the job anyway so qualifications will certainly help them get work experience opportunities.

[Rincewind]

Most mundane jobs such as cleaning need some sort of qualification. Normally Health Safety a Site certificate machinary handling plus experience. I've had two types of jobs, ina hosiery warehouse and security. If it was not for the security I would not have the trust factor on my CV