Public Works

[The People's Hero]

Branching off from another thread, which I've threatened to derail a little, what is everyone's view on public works?

To be more specific I'm talking about schemes set up for the benefit of society, carried out by volunteers are or those conscripted (emotive choice of word) to help from the ranks of can't work/won't work.

Even those who are claiming disability should be able to find some sort of work they could do. It doesn't have to be hard, physical labour.

For those who are capable though, it SHOULD be hard, physical labour designed for the benefit of society and to make taking an actual job the 'easy' life as opposed to sitting on a sofa eating jammy dodgers.

Graffiti scrubbing

Road Sweeping

Drains Clearing

Simple gardening tasks

The only public outlay in these sort of things is the structure ie organisation of it and the provision of tools. Any tools which go missing to be deducted from that month's benefit payment.

It would also be like community service so not turning up could result in a prison sentence etc or perhaps just the suspension of all benefits altogether.

What do we think?

[Finnegan]

I disagree massively with benefit claimants being forced to do these things long term, firstly because it's just a loophole to get round the minimum wage and secondly because it's taking a valid job away from honest labourers with little skill or experience who currently remove graffiti or sweep roads.

Drain clearance, by the way, is a surprisingly involved full time job that we pay operatives a reasonable wage for. Infact, there are private sector jetters that earn six figure salaries in London on call out.

I liked the Future Jobs Fund, though, and not just because it helped me. It was s pot of money used to create short term (six month contracts) jobs that had to benefit the community. Companies claimed for a grant from central government, it was mostly public and third sector as private sector businesses struggled to justify the community benefit.

It helped staff libraries, maintenance of public land, litter picking, etc. These people became employees, gor used to working, got something on their cv, got support from their employers and most importantly got some self esteem, confidence and selfworth that most of them had lost being long term benefit claimants.

[Guest]

Just posted in the other thread:

I have always believed that after a certain period of searching and training then the unemployed should work in the community - not only is it beneficial to the community but also beneficial to the individual who regains the methods and principles of work whilst gaining experience and showing abilities. The best argument against "community work" is that it takes jobs from those already working. Of course if everywhere in our cities was clean and our services efficient and perfect this would be a great argument but they aren't. However I am not suggesting slave labour/ subsidised workers. I'm suggesting work to aid the community for those who can't get work for the benefit of all.

However I don't think the work should be limited to "manual" labour tasks.

If an unemployed person is a skilled accountant/teacher etc... they should be able to use these skills to help the community whilst searching for another job. This is particularly important for older people who have become unemployed. Thinking of rincewind there is also the idea of local security and even community police etc...

[Finnegan]

Oh and as for imprisoning a benefit claimant that didn't show up for mandatory slave labour?!

Behave, Jeremy Clarkson.

[The People's Hero]

Ok, here's another of my hobby horses.

Why can't we force prisoners to do some work for good?

This such a namby pamby state and the working man, particularly those working to try to support a family, gets the least support.

If I disappeared, my wife would be quids in I expect. (I actually have no idea).

[Guest BlueBrett]

If you are graffiti scrubbing, road sweeping, drains clearing or gardening you should be getting paid for it.

[The People's Hero]

Oh and as for imprisoning a benefit claimant that didn't show up for mandatory slave labour?!

Behave, Jeremy Clarkson.

Sounds fine to me - they want taxpayers' money but don't want to do anything in return?

My only concern is that taxpayers have then got to spend time supporting them in jail.

They must laugh at those of us in work!

If you are graffiti scrubbing, road sweeping, drains clearing or gardening you should be getting paid for it.

Well the opportunity is there, but these jobs are apparently beneath most people.

[Finnegan]

I can't quite work out if you've become a massive Tory overnight or if you're on the wind up, Jimbo.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Well the opportunity is there, but these jobs are apparently beneath most people.

I don't think so. I'm sure loads of people already have jobs like these.

As for making prisoners work..how exactly would you do that? You can't double lock them up so unless you plan to starve any who refuse into submission you might struggle to motivate your workforce

[MooseBreath]

If a job is worth doing, pay someone to do it. If it's not worth doing, don't do it.

Six months military service at 18 would help more imho.

[Guest]

Oh and as for imprisoning a benefit claimant that didn't show up for mandatory slave labour?!

Behave, Jeremy Clarkson.

Don't you think that people should be expected to contribute to society in return for their benefits?

This didn't use to be a problem because the shame of not working and the level of income for not working meant that people went out and got jobs as quickly as they could. This has now changed. it is not much of a stigma to be unemployed anymore - and rightly so when so many people are unable to get jobs - but the level of benefits has made many people happy not to work. Those who have worked and paid contributions should rightfully expect to get benefits, pensions etc... but we have a new generation of claimant who has never worked, never paid into the community pot, it is unjustifiable for them to receive full benefits in this situation. when I say unjustifiable I mean that if everyone does that then there is clearly no pot to claim from.

I would suggest that all school leavers (uni leavers whatever) spend a year working for the community in order to build up a goodwill pot for future eventualities. a little like national service but not lnked to defence, linked to community.

[The People's Hero]

I can't quite work out if you've become a massive Tory overnight or if you're on the wind up, Jimbo.

I'm not on the wind up, maybe I'm just completely fed up.

Its an odd thing but due to events occurring and what is god-willing going to become the case in the middle of next year, I simply won't be able to provide for my family.

Solution is quit work and throw myself on the mercy of the state. Problem is I'm a bit worried people might start offering me jobs and the Gov find out about it and stop paying me money.

Also in principle I feel that those on benefits should be forced to do at least some work for the public good. Why shouldn't they? There are far too many people who just simply don't want to work.

But who are the mugs here really? The guys struggling to make ends meet whilst not working? Or the guys (like me) struggling to make ends meet whilst working full time?

[Finnegan]

The opportunity isn't there, not in Leicester anyway. We aren't currently employing people to do those jobs.

We can't afford to maintain most of our estates because there's not a budget.

[Guest]

If you are graffiti scrubbing, road sweeping, drains clearing or gardening you should be getting paid for it.

you would be - benefits are pay. Everyone can't live on benefits - someone has to create this money for others to live on.

[Finnegan]

Oh and whenever those jobs ARE advertised, shit loads of people apply for one or two posts.

[The People's Hero]

Don't you think that people should be expected to contribute to society in return for their benefits?

This didn't use to be a problem because the shame of not working and the level of income for not working meant that people went out and got jobs as quickly as they could. This has now changed. it is not much of a stigma to be unemployed anymore - and rightly so when so many people are unable to get jobs - but the level of benefits has made many people happy not to work. Those who have worked and paid contributions should rightfully expect to get benefits, pensions etc... but we have a new generation of claimant who has never worked, never paid into the community pot, it is unjustifiable for them to receive full benefits in this situation. when I say unjustifiable I mean that if everyone does that then there is clearly no pot to claim from.

I would suggest that all school leavers (uni leavers whatever) spend a year working for the community in order to build up a goodwill pot for future eventualities. a little like national service but not lnked to defence, linked to community.

That's a good idea.

Oh and whenever those jobs ARE advertised, shit loads of people apply for one or two posts.

So why not create more of these jobs and allow people to have their benefits plus a little extra. Like full paid employment but just an incentive to get people working.

[Finnegan]

you would be - benefits are pay. Everyone can't live on benefits - someone has to create this money for others to live on.

Benefits aren't pay, they're just keeping you alive. If you graft for an honest living, even doing menial work, you at very least deserve minimum wage.

I'm surprised I need to explain that to a socialist.

[Guest BlueBrett]

you would be - benefits are pay. Everyone can't live on benefits - someone has to create this money for others to live on.

So you would do away with the minimum wage them? Seems a strange argument for a 'socialist'

[Finnegan]

That's a good idea.

So why not create more of these jobs and allow people to have their benefits plus a little extra. Like full paid employment but just an incentive to get people working.

I just told you, that existed. Gordon Browns government put it in place.

It was one of the first things Cameron scrapped as unnecessary. ****ing idiot.

Yeah, more people in work couldn't possibly help the economy.

[Guest]

The opportunity isn't there, not in Leicester anyway. We aren't currently employing people to do those jobs.

We can't afford to maintain most of our estates because there's not a budget.

Catch 42. Why isn't there a budget?

Because too many people are not working and therefore not contributing to the community pot yet they are taking from the community pot through benefits of all types.

I don't see how you can't see the unsustainability of this. By the time you are at a retirement age there will be NO money to pay you for retirement - that's not scaremongering that's a fact - check the figures.

[Finnegan]

That's Cameron being a ****ing idiot by the way, Woolers, wasn't attacking you.

[Guest]

Benefits aren't pay, they're just keeping you alive. If you graft for an honest living, even doing menial work, you at very least deserve minimum wage.

I'm surprised I need to explain that to a socialist.

Benefits are pay. How can you not understand that.

Do you think the money comes from thin air.

Answer me this simple question.

If nobody works can we pay minimum benefits for everyone to live?

[Jon the Hat]

In practical terms you are talking about replacing benefits with a work scheme. It feels like a good idea, and as finners said there are lots of benefits for the long term / never employed in particular. It just feels a bit too nanny state for me. Essentually this is the same thing as the current schemes which get work experience (see other threads slagging these off), only with the state being the "employer" and some level of compulsion. Jail is ridiculous, if you dont turn up you dont get your benefits is surely enough.

[The People's Hero]

That's Cameron being a ****ing idiot by the way, Woolers, wasn't attacking you.

No problem. I am an idiot by the way and regularly get called far worse.

If you're not thick-skinned (or just thick), don't work in insurance!

[Finnegan]

Catch 42. Why isn't there a budget?

Because too many people are not working and therefore not contributing to the community pot yet they are taking from the community pot through benefits of all types.

I don't see how you can't see the unsustainability of this. By the time you are at a retirement age there will be NO money to pay you for retirement - that's not scaremongering that's a fact - check the figures.

Because we're not taxing those who can afford it enough, because major multinationals are taking the piss out of our tax laws, because we spend billions on wars we shouldn't be involved in, because because because.

The welfare system isn't crippling the country it's just an easy scapegoat.

It isn't a perfect system at all but nor is it all our ills.