Public Works

[RobHawk]

No Gary Coatsworth!?!?! There's something terribly wrong with this thread!

[Webbo]

Yes and presumably he knows the rules (just to clarify these would be explained to the claimants).

They don't have to claim? They could go out and actually get a job?

They could kick your head in.

You don't have to sell the policy to me ,I'm a right wing, Daily Mail reading, Thatcherite, Tory bastard, ask Finners. I just don't think it'll work.

Edit; Franck Rolling

[The People's Hero]

Make it 80's: Norman Leet.

You Frenchies just never let it drop, do you?

[Finnegan]

What a throw he had!

Had nothing on Frank Sinclair's finish.

[Guest]

Had nothing on Frank Sinclair's finish.

But Frankie's was normally in his own goal.

[Guest]

You Frenchies just never let it drop, do you?

I deedn't say Pegguy for ze 90's.

[Deucalion]

Maybe the solution is the opposite of the usual Tory solution to anything.

All the Tories want is to turn back the clock to the glory days of bosses being able to abuse and exploit their workforce while paying them a pittance. Unfortunately for them, workers became educated and organised and through a long and painful process, managed to get something closer to just rewards for their work and some protection from those with the capital to own the means of production.

Therefore, a solution to benefits seeming a better option than work is to make work pay more!! In these difficult times there are still people out there buying Bentleys, second homes and all the rest of it. The rich are still getting richer!! The only people feeling the pinch are those at the bottom.

What suits these rich people more than getting those at the bottom fight amongst themselves over the pittance they receive? Surely the 'have nots' would be better off saving their hostility for those to whom money has always been a given and who's only aim is to ensure that wealth stays securely with them and others cut from the same cloth?

The Tories always pick on the weakest in society to follow the basic rule of 'divide and rule'.

Any socialist who is beginning to believe their propaganda, well...shame on you !!

[Guest]

The only people feeling the pinch are those at the bottom.

But that's what this discussion is about. It's not the people at the bottom feeling the pinch the most and it's never the people at the top. It's those who work and create so that the rich get richer whilst others can do nothing and have areasonable existence that are feeling the pinch.

[Deucalion]

But that's what this discussion is about. It's not the people at the bottom feeling the pinch the most and it's never the people at the top. It's those who work and create so that the rich get richer whilst others can do nothing and have areasonable existence that are feeling the pinch.

Well look, I always look at things using my two heads. One head will look at the solution pragmatically and from a moderate basis and the other head will look at the problem from the basis of a radical socialist and see the solution as always to start breaking heads, cutting throats and giving select people new careers down coal mines.

My wife and I both work for a reasonable income. By our mid 40s we own most of a nice house and are able to afford some luxuries and a holiday once a year. The head which grew out of this existence is pretty furious that there are people who enjoy almost the same quality of life who have never lifted a finger to work in their lives. As it gets harder to afford the luxuries and the holidays, (although thankfully so far we can afford the mortgage) it is very easy to start pointing the finger at those enjoying a reasonable lifestyle funded by our taxes.

My middle class head says that there should be a clear difference between the wealth of those working and those on benefits. Benefits were never supposed to be a career choice and should not be so now, they should be a safety net to prevent real poverty should working people fall on hard times.

But...to say people on long-term benefits are just lazy is a stupid generalisation. The social problems which cause the dependency culture are much more complicated than this. In my opinion, it was caused by the Thatcher government in the 80s which removed the possibility and therefore example of work from whole communities. So any solution I think of is not hard on these victims of Thatcherism.

Which leads to my revolutionary head. This says the problem is caused because wealth and power are centralised in the hands of people who mercilessly ensure that they stay rich, regardless of the negative effect this has on other people's lives. Until we get rid of the monarchy and the vestiges of the aristocracy, this country will be inherently exploitative. Next on the list are those who make vast sums of money through doing little more productive than playing with figures. Bankers make huge sums of money while producing nothing of value to society other than more wealth for the wealthy.

While people sit on inherited wealth and privilege and others exploit money markets for the sole purpose of making more money for the wealthy, does it not seem harsh to be looking to penalise the honest worker, or the public sector worker, or those on benefits?

[Monk]

The biggest problem with welfare is the negativity associated with the wrong thing - benefit claimants rather than the lack of jobs.

I do feel there is a massive opportunity for the government to make infrastructure investment and employ plenty of currently unemployed people at the same time. Think of all the investment that's needed in energy, roads, rail etc and the huge numbers of people who could work on these projects, paid. If they're not qualified, train them. These things all cost money, but ultimately it will have more long term benefits through up skilling the workforce.

The government also doesn't do nearly enough to promote small business startups, encourage funding or to up skill people on jobseekers allowance. Why do so many public sector contracts go to companies abroad?

For example if you're in a town with lots of empty shops - why is the funding not there for a community startup coffee shop or the like in an empty, to employ 3-6 people part time.

The vast majority of people are reactionary at the symptom (JSA claimants) rather than the cause (lack of economic stimulus).

On the flipside if you're working and don't have enough money coming in - that is really hard - but ultimately the only person with the control to fix it is yourself. Start a side project. Hustle. Where and how else can you sell your skills? Not everyone can do this of course but there are always ways to bring in more money if you look hard enough.

[Captain...]

The biggest problem with welfare is the negativity associated with the wrong thing - benefit claimants rather than the lack of jobs.

I do feel there is a massive opportunity for the government to make infrastructure investment and employ plenty of currently unemployed people at the same time. Think of all the investment that's needed in energy...

Are you suggesting we strap the unemployed to exercise bikes attached to generators that feed into the national and force them to physically generate energy so I can run my X-box?

Brilliant idea I love it.

[Monk]

Are you suggesting we strap the unemployed to exercise bikes attached to generators that feed into the national and force them to physically generate energy so I can run my X-box?

Brilliant idea I love it.

EXACTLY!

[Guest]

On the flipside if you're working and don't have enough money coming in - that is really hard - but ultimately the only person with the control to fix it is yourself. Start a side project. Hustle. Where and how else can you sell your skills? Not everyone can do this of course but there are always ways to bring in more money if you look hard enough.

You make a reasonable argument but I'm not sure how it's easier for a person who is working and finding things hard to set-up a side project than it is for someone who isn't working.

I agree with your argument that the government should be investing in infrastructure, I'd go further and say Education too. get more teachers and assistants into schools so that teacher to student is nearer to 15 than 40.

I've already postulated about the need to make start-ups easier and I think your point about empty shops is a good one. In places like Lancashire I believe that 1 in every 20 houses is empty but that work needs doing on the houses to make them livable. there seems to be an obvious solution there too.

[Zingari]

Well look, I always look at things using my two heads. One head will look at the solution pragmatically and from a moderate basis and the other head will look at the problem from the basis of a radical socialist and see the solution as always to start breaking heads, cutting throats and giving select people new careers down coal mines.

My wife and I both work for a reasonable income. By our mid 40s we own most of a nice house and are able to afford some luxuries and a holiday once a year. The head which grew out of this existence is pretty furious that there are people who enjoy almost the same quality of life who have never lifted a finger to work in their lives. As it gets harder to afford the luxuries and the holidays, (although thankfully so far we can afford the mortgage) it is very easy to start pointing the finger at those enjoying a reasonable lifestyle funded by our taxes.

My middle class head says that there should be a clear difference between the wealth of those working and those on benefits. Benefits were never supposed to be a career choice and should not be so now, they should be a safety net to prevent real poverty should working people fall on hard times.

But...to say people on long-term benefits are just lazy is a stupid generalisation. The social problems which cause the dependency culture are much more complicated than this. In my opinion, it was caused by the Thatcher government in the 80s which removed the possibility and therefore example of work from whole communities. So any solution I think of is not hard on these victims of Thatcherism.

Which leads to my revolutionary head. This says the problem is caused because wealth and power are centralised in the hands of people who mercilessly ensure that they stay rich, regardless of the negative effect this has on other people's lives. Until we get rid of the monarchy and the vestiges of the aristocracy, this country will be inherently exploitative. Next on the list are those who make vast sums of money through doing little more productive than playing with figures. Bankers make huge sums of money while producing nothing of value to society other than more wealth for the wealthy.

While people sit on inherited wealth and privilege and others exploit money markets for the sole purpose of making more money for the wealthy, does it not seem harsh to be looking to penalise the honest worker, or the public sector worker, or those on benefits?

Very good post which really appeals to my own state of mind that nothing seems quite so black and white or clear cut anymore.

Maybe its just an age thing that does this to us .

[Monk]

I started my own company whilst I was full time elsewhere, and now run my company full time. It is do able - but I did work 15 hours a day for about 6 months - and had sod all in the bank at the same time. Now everything is honkey dorey.

If people are interested - some starting points:

• Offer your services on a freelance website - eg odesk, elance. Get paid per hour or per job for small projects.
  
• Blog on a topic that you're really knowledgable on and put ads on your site or sell associated products (shopify.com, wordpress.com)
  
• Offer a training course in your town for a skill you're knowledgable in - eg for me this would be Excel
  
• Host a meetup group on meetup.com and collect monthly membership from your group members (A friend of mine does this)
  

If you REALLY want to make it work - the opportunity is out there. What's lacking is knowledge of these things and/or inclination.

Oh and also. Career advice in this country is MASSIVELY outdated.

[acooling08]

Benefits aren't pay, they're just keeping you alive. If you graft for an honest living, even doing menial work, you at very least deserve minimum wage.

I'm surprised I need to explain that to a socialist.

That was true when the system was created and actually worked. Now go to a social housing estate where nobody works and they've all got half decent cars and Sky TV dishes on the roofs.

[The People's Hero]

The problem you have is that I know a lot of intelligent, capable people who are in employment who are now considering quitting those jobs and going travelling/moving abroad/downsizing homes and just not working or whatever as they have completely lost faith in the system.

Many of these people work hard in semi-decent jobs but are just sick of the fact that its people like us that work work work and then its just dished out to people who I feel in many cases are simply undeserving.

If I work 100% harder than them, why should my life be say 15% more comfortable? Seems stupid? They get time to spend with their kids, time which for me is at an absolute premium and now further threatened since I evidently need to get an additional job.

Why should I work almost every hour or the day when the state could just support me and my family? Professional Pride? Pah. That is why but why do I feel more and more like a mug?

[RobHawk]

That was true when the system was created and actually worked. Now go to a social housing estate where nobody works and they've all got half decent cars and Sky TV dishes on the roofs.

How true is that though? I know a lot of people who live on housing estates i would consider as rough! They work just as hard as anyone so they can have perks! A couple of them are in to classic cars and regularly work extra hours so they can afford the latest piece of kit they need for their car! Just because of where they live doesn't mean they don't have jobs or have morals! Normally just means they would rather spend their money elsewhere!!

And for the record non of these people are in what you call social housing! they were council houses but Maggie flogged them in the 80's! Just because it looks like a council house doesn't mean it is!

[Monk]

The problem you have is that I know a lot of intelligent, capable people who are in employment who are now considering quitting those jobs and going travelling/moving abroad/downsizing homes and just not working or whatever as they have completely lost faith in the system.

Move to Scotland then

[The People's Hero]

It definitely is true. Definitely.

Ok sometimes you might have to have a few more kids than you really want, but its all about how good these scroungers are at playing the system.

[RobHawk]

And i still vote Coatsworth!

[RobHawk]

It definitely is true. Definitely.

Ok sometimes you might have to have a few more kids than you really want, but its all about how good these scroungers are at playing the system.

There are people who abuse the system no doubt and i'm sure some do have sky TV and cars! But what you see (aka a council estate full of nice cars and sky dishes) doesn't mean you have an estate full of scroungers! I think the amount of people playing the system is alot lower than the government would like us to believe! Most job seekers are there for genuine reasons!

[The People's Hero]

There are people who abuse the system no doubt and i'm sure some do have sky TV and cars! But what you see (aka a council estate full of nice cars and sky dishes) doesn't mean you have an estate full of scroungers! I think the amount of people playing the system is alot lower than the government would like us to believe! Most job seekers are there for genuine reasons!

The quote about the estate being full of them was not from me.

I know of individuals of which it is true though

[Captain...]

I started my own company whilst I was full time elsewhere, and now run my company full time. It is do able - but I did work 15 hours a day for about 6 months - and had sod all in the bank at the same time. Now everything is honkey dorey.

If people are interested - some starting points:

• Offer your services on a freelance website - eg odesk, elance. Get paid per hour or per job for small projects.
  
• Blog on a topic that you're really knowledgable on and put ads on your site or sell associated products (shopify.com, wordpress.com)
  
• Offer a training course in your town for a skill you're knowledgable in - eg for me this would be Excel
  
• Host a meetup group on meetup.com and collect monthly membership from your group members (A friend of mine does this)
  

If you REALLY want to make it work - the opportunity is out there. What's lacking is knowledge of these things and/or inclination.

Oh and also. Career advice in this country is MASSIVELY outdated.

What is lacking for me is what to have a career in, when living in Spain I did a few of things and was heading towards setting my own business, but got dragged back to the UK for more money than I could hope to earn in Spain teaching English, I do kinda regret it but on the other hand the way the economy is in Spain at the moment, I think it was the right decision.

[leicsmac]

You make a reasonable argument but I'm not sure how it's easier for a person who is working and finding things hard to set-up a side project than it is for someone who isn't working.

I agree with your argument that the government should be investing in infrastructure, I'd go further and say Education too. get more teachers and assistants into schools so that teacher to student is nearer to 15 than 40.

I've already postulated about the need to make start-ups easier and I think your point about empty shops is a good one. In places like Lancashire I believe that 1 in every 20 houses is empty but that work needs doing on the houses to make them livable. there seems to be an obvious solution there too.

This, this, a billion times this PLEASE. Reduced student to teacher ratio will improve education. End of story.

The problem you have is that I know a lot of intelligent, capable people who are in employment who are now considering quitting those jobs and going travelling/moving abroad/downsizing homes and just not working or whatever as they have completely lost faith in the system.

Many of these people work hard in semi-decent jobs but are just sick of the fact that its people like us that work work work and then its just dished out to people who I feel in many cases are simply undeserving.

If I work 100% harder than them, why should my life be say 15% more comfortable? Seems stupid? They get time to spend with their kids, time which for me is at an absolute premium and now further threatened since I evidently need to get an additional job.

Why should I work almost every hour or the day when the state could just support me and my family? Professional Pride? Pah. That is why but why do I feel more and more like a mug?

The bolded part is very true for a fair few young people too at the moment. There's a 'brain drain' (and there has been for some time) because many smart young people simply do not get the opportunities in this country to work in the professional sectors (science, engineering etc) that they've studied to work in. Instead they take the lucrative positions offered by other countries that will.

If we want to keep those people here and remain a world leader in many different professional fields, more jobs have to be created. It's a constant bugbear to me that the Science/Engineering industries in this country are continuously being downsized right now. They create the wealth - not the financial sector.