Public Works

[Guest]

So you would do away with the minimum wage them? Seems a strange argument for a 'socialist'

So two of you don't really understand Socialism. in true socialism there isn't a minimum wage - there is no need for wages at all. People don't earn ridiculous amounts of disposable income because they can kick a ball well or add up better than another man or simply because they are more intelligent. True socialism believes in helping the community in whatever way you can that best supports that community.

As I said to finnegan, if no-one works there is no benefit system for anyone.

And by the way the minimum wage is a fiasco as is a "35 hour week" etc... there is no truth to it.

[The People's Hero]

Because we're not taxing those who can afford it enough, because major multinationals are taking the piss out of our tax laws, because we spend billions on wars we shouldn't be involved in, because because because.

The welfare system isn't crippling the country it's just an easy scapegoat.

It isn't a perfect system at all but nor is it all our ills.

I agree with all of that, but all of those are different subjects and therefore this just obfuscates the real argument.

All of these things need attention - but you note the welfare system isn't perfect, so why not lets try to improve it.

As for those countries who don't want to pay UK corporation tax, I'd honestly call their collective bluff and tell them to sling their hooks. I think the whole country would be behind me.

This is why I'm in Government since I'd just cost the country jobs, trade, turnover, investment and probably international goodwill (if we have any left)

[Finnegan]

Benefits are pay. How can you not understand that.

Do you think the money comes from thin air.

Answer me this simple question.

If nobody works can we pay minimum benefits for everyone to live?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Benefits are an income but clearly there is a fairly obvious distinction between having your rent covered by the state and being paid a fair hourly rate for honest graft?

Answer BlueBrett, are you seriously opposed to.minimum wage?

[Guest]

Because we're not taxing those who can afford it enough, because major multinationals are taking the piss out of our tax laws, because we spend billions on wars we shouldn't be involved in, because because because.

The welfare system isn't crippling the country it's just an easy scapegoat.

It isn't a perfect system at all but nor is it all our ills.

And I've always said that I agree with a benefits system. I don't agree with benefit abuse.

As you should've read I don't agree with ridiculous wages (in theory I don't agree with wages at all) and I believe in nationalised industries - not corrupt and inefficient ones. I see no reason why we shouldn't re-nationalise but run efficiently. Community work is in effect a nationalised industry.

[Finnegan]

So two of you don't really understand Socialism. in true socialism there isn't a minimum wage - there is no need for wages at all. People don't earn ridiculous amounts of disposable income because they can kick a ball well or add up better than another man or simply because they are more intelligent. True socialism believes in helping the community in whatever way you can that best supports that community.

As I said to finnegan, if no-one works there is no benefit system for anyone.

And by the way the minimum wage is a fiasco as is a "35 hour week" etc... there is no truth to it.

I understand socialism, I'm also well aware I live in a capitalist democracy and not the USSR. What would or would not happen if we were all paid a fixed income from central government is fantasy and irrelevant in this thread.

[The People's Hero]

Forgetting my views and any personal feeling towards this issue at all, I do think that the whole debate around benefits/welfare etc has developed quite an edge recently.

I'm not going to be dramatic and talk of civil unrest or whatever, but it really does divide people and there is, I think quite a bit of strong feeling on it.

[Jon the Hat]

This thread is definately going to give me a headache.

[The People's Hero]

This thread is definately going to give me a headache.

You sound like my wife.

WAHEY!

[Jon the Hat]

Because we're not taxing those who can afford it enough, because major multinationals are taking the piss out of our tax laws, because we spend billions on wars we shouldn't be involved in, because because because.

The welfare system isn't crippling the country it's just an easy scapegoat.

It isn't a perfect system at all but nor is it all our ills.

Arrrrrrrrrgh. Piss off to France you bloody tax and spend socialist nightmare!!!

[Guest BlueBrett]

So two of you don't really understand Socialism. in true socialism there isn't a minimum wage - there is no need for wages at all. People don't earn ridiculous amounts of disposable income because they can kick a ball well or add up better than another man or simply because they are more intelligent. True socialism believes in helping the community in whatever way you can that best supports that community.

As I said to finnegan, if no-one works there is no benefit system for anyone.

I thought socialists wanted to reward people based on the quality of the work that they do? I think you might be getting your isms mixed up.

Don't really see how the point about nobody working is relevant. Obviously true but will never happen..?

Answer BlueBrett, are you seriously opposed to.minimum wage?

he's opposed to wages altogether mate!

[Guest]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Benefits are an income but clearly there is a fairly obvious distinction between having your rent covered by the state and being paid a fair hourly rate for honest graft?

Answer BlueBrett, are you seriously opposed to.minimum wage?

We are not talking about having shelter and food covered by the state though are we?

I'm sure that you have some economic skills. To pay benefits you need a source of revenue.

Not fighting in other people's wars could do that to a little extent (of course it could also add to unemployment but I'd agree with that) but you fail to understand the crux of my argument.

If people want state pay then they should do state work - as I've said after a reasonable time where they searched and failed to find private work.

I did answer Blue Brett's question about the minimum wage. It is a ridiculous pretend socialist move. it is neither enforced nor reasonable just a salve to a false conscience. I would agree with a REAL minimum wage and I see benefits as a real minimum wage in return for REAL minimum work.

[Finnegan]

Arrrrrrrrrgh. Piss off to France you bloody tax and spend socialist nightmare!!!

I've got my beret and onions ready to go, Jon, just need to get my bicycle fixed and I'm off!

Aux armes, citoyenz! Formez vos battalions!

[The People's Hero]

...... in return for REAL minimum work.

But what if you're a lazy scrote who doesn't want to do any work at or, real or otherwise (other than firing out myawfulCV.doc every week or so) ??

We can't just abandon these upstanding members of society can we? How will they afford booze and fags?

Is it safe for me to bring up my suggestion about clothing and food coupons yet?

[Webbo]

I thought socialists wanted to reward people based on the quality of the work that they do? I think you might be getting your isms mixed up.

Don't really see how the point about nobody working is relevant. Obviously true but will never happen..?

Socialism believes in paying people based on need rather than worth, you're describing capitalism (if that isn't too Daily Mail )

[The People's Hero]

I've got my beret and onions ready to go, Jon, just need to get my bicycle fixed and I'm off!

Aux armes, citoyenz! Formez vos battalions!

Yes, I would love to come and see Les Miserables with you next Tuesday, but I find the casting of Cosette disappointing. Its a much sought after (and key) role and I find the actress' singing far from the standard desired.

[Finnegan]

But what if you're a lazy scrote who doesn't want to do any work at or, real or otherwise (other than firing out myawfulCV.doc every week or so) ??

We can't just abandon these upstanding members of society can we? How will they afford booze and fags?

Is it safe for me to bring up my suggestion about clothing and food coupons yet?

be honest Woolers, is this whole thing just trolling your favourite forum Sarf Landanner?

[ADK]

I was going to write something but i can't read this thread quicker than new replies are being posted so i'll have to come back later.

[Finnegan]

Yes, I would love to come and see Les Miserables with you next Tuesday, but I find the casting of Cosette disappointing. Its a much sought after (and key) role and I find the actress' singing far from the standard desired.

Plus you'd look well fitter in a corset than her.

[The People's Hero]

be honest Woolers, is this whole thing just trolling your favourite forum Sarf Landanner?

50/50.

Also, I've been to the Valley.

They could use a few roadsweepers/jetwashers in the roads around there.

Can't we fix Lamby up?

I was going to write something but i can't read this thread quicker than new replies are being posted so i'll have to come back later.

Marxist douchebag.

(not really)

[Guest BlueBrett]

Socialism believes in paying people based on need rather than worth, you're describing capitalism (if that isn't too Daily Mail )

Common misconception. Socialists (apart from FIF) believe in "from each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds" It's the communists who distribute based on 'needs'

[Guest]

I understand socialism, I'm also well aware I live in a capitalist democracy and not the USSR. What would or would not happen if we were all paid a fixed income from central government is fantasy and irrelevant in this thread.

I have never suggested a fixed income.

You live in the U.K. I live in France. both are "capitalist democracies" apparently. Yet the things we are discussing are run in different ways; nothing is exactly the same. You seem incapable of realising that the UK system is flawed and needs overhauling and renovating (the French system is also flawed before you think I'm defending the system - here the health system is in dire need of reform before it wrecks the country).

no-one should be able to spend their whole life living on government payouts without ever working for them - in my opinion - you can disagree with that if you wish but it isn't going to change my mind.

The British Welfare system is fantastic but abused by too many and being more abused every passing year. The abuse is no different than those sickeningly overpaid people who defraud the state by using their own loopholes to avoid payment. Both areas need to be overhauled for the modern day and people need to become aware that there are no free rides. If you live here you need to put in not just take out (that's everybody - working and unemployed).

[Webbo]

Common misconception. Socialists (apart from FIF) believe in "from each according to his ability, to each according to his deeds" It's the communists who distribute based on 'needs'

So socialism doesn't mind if bankers earns millions from their abilities?

[Guest BlueBrett]

So socialism doesn't mind if bankers earns millions from their abilities?

You'd have to ask one.

I think not in theory. But they would of course be expected to pay back a substantial amount in tax.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Marxist douchebag.

(not really)

Of course Public Works are a good idea and anyone out of work for a long period would be very wise to do some sort of charitable work to show willing, even if only to future employers. Making it mandatory is fraught with difficulties in a society that has become full of excusers and blamers - nothing is never anyone's fault any more; let someone else sort it out. Still, I can't see why anyone except the most severely disabled couldn't do at least 10 hours public service a week - but for those ten hours they should get a decent top-up of their JSA. They get more money, whilst still having time to search for jobs. If it was an option I'm sure there would be a fair uptake.

[The People's Hero]

I think my work here is done.

You have to admit, its been a good thread so far.

Might drink a few bottles of pinot gris tonight and come back to it.