Job seekers Survival Guide

[Rincewind]

Just found this.

Job Seekers Allowance Survival Guide

intro l leaving work & signing on l active signing l restarts/interviews l feedback/help

CAN I REFUSE TO APPLY FOR A JOB?

Job refusals

Notified vacancies

Creative job search

Employment agencies

REFUSING A JOB

When you first sign on you can look for work in your usual occupation for up to 13 weeks - unless you are a school leaver; have never worked before or your trade no longer exists.

You don't have to justify refusing a job of less than 24 hours every week and they do not count as "Notified Vacancies". But under the JSA they can order you to apply for these by issuing a Job Seekers Direction. If you don't apply you get treated as having refused a Direction. But if you apply and are offered the job you can't be sanctioned for refusing to take it. Sounds odd but the thing is people signing on are agreeing to look for full time work not part time work. If the job offers less than 24 hours each week you can refuse it.

You are not obliged to apply for jobs you have found in your job seeking activity, i.e. from the papers, by asking around or off the Job Centre boards. But if they know you've applied for and been offered a job and then refused it, they can argue that you are refusing suitable employment and may offer you the job as a "Notified Vacancy". Also, if you ask about a Job at the Job Centre it gets put on the computer and they can treat it as a Notified Vacancy.

NOTIFIED VACANCY

- this is when Employment Service staff tell you to apply for a specific job. It is not the same as a Job Seekers Direction. Be warned that just enquiring at the desks about a job off the boards could be treated as a Notified Vacancy if they consider it's reasonable employment for you. If you refuse to apply for a Notified Vacancy you could face up to 6 months without benefit - unless you can show either:

That you don't have the required skills and qualifications, or : That you have good cause (see below).

A Notified Vacancy MUST be a job offering more than 24 hours pw (for ones under 24 hours they can only issue a Job Seekers Direction - see above). A Notified Vacancy MUST be one that it is reasonable to expect you to do, but should also reflect conditions generally available locally. ES Advisers should always offer those vacancies with highest rates of pay for that type of work before offering one that pays less. Also the Employment Service should not handle jobs or expect you to apply for / take jobs : which involve sexual or racial discrimination; where the premises raise doubts under the Health & Safety Act; where claimants' complaints suggest that it might be "doubtful, undesirable or not genuine." Undesirability can include: allegations of unfair dismissal; non-payment of wages or expenses; sexual harassment, misrepresentation of pay and conditions and oppressive contracts of employment.

They MUST tell you that they are offering you a Notified Vacancy and that there are penalties for refusing to apply for it.

You can refuse a Notified Vacancy with "Good Cause" if you refuse:

To be a scab provided that the specific vacancy is one caused by the dispute.

On religious or conscientious grounds, which can include:

Objecting to not being a member of a trade union in a work place where non membership is a condition of employment

Objecting to work with material which may be used for the destruction of human life

Working in abattoirs etc.

On health grounds eg. "excessive physical or mental stress"

Due to excessive travelling time to work (more than one hour each way)

If the job's hours and days of working differ significantly from those set out in your Job Seekers Agreement.

You can't refuse to apply for a job because it is badly paid!!

CREATIVE JOB SEARCH

If you have to apply for a job you don't want, don't despair.

Remember - there are probably loads of other people going for the same job, several of whom will be better suited for it and actually want it.

You're the one who fills in the application form. If you don't want the job make sure your application is nondescript or contains information about your work history or references that will put the employer off interviewing or hiring you.

If you get an interview be equally (un)imaginative. Ask employers which union represents their workforce and whether they would object to you joining it, or, if there isn't one, starting one up. Also ensure, for your own well being, that Health & Safety is up to scratch.

Above all, go out of your way to make sure the employer realises exactly what sort of a person you are and the kind of benefit they could expect for their business by employing you.

Take care : under JSA and especially with Job Seekers Directives the Employment Service can say that you deliberately spoilt your chances of getting a job by:

Deliberately writing a crap application

Making unreasonable conditions for accepting a job

Creating an unfavourable impression at interview by being deliberately aggressive, obstructive, apathetic or drunk

Refusing to give references

Delaying acceptance of job if offered.

Remember - they have to prove that you spoilt your chances. So be subtle. If they do treat you as actively refusing they will ask you to complete a form writing down your reasons for refusal. You don't have to complete it there and then, you have a month to return it. Get advice before filling it in. <a href="http://www.urban75.com/Action/Jsa/jsa5.html#top">

EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES

For some people employment agencies are a good route to work. But there are real problems with them. They are used by employers to get casual labour rather than having a permanent workforce with rights and the possibility of organising against exploitation. They usually offer lower pay than the going rate. They are used for strike breaking. Above all, for many unskilled workers, you get a few days work with no prospect of secure employment and then you're dumped back on the dole and have to go through all the hassle of sorting out a giro etc.

Under JSA there may be more pressure put on people to register with Employment Agencies, either through the Job Seekers Agreement or by way of a Job Seekers Direction. Resist this using the arguments above, especially for your JSA Agreement. If you are ordered to register with one under a Direction, even after arguing against it, you have to do it. But remember you don't have to accept any job that offers less than 24 hours work pw. So if you're offered 3 days work this week you can refuse it because there is no guarantee of work next week etc. For temporary jobs offering more than 24 hours where the work is guaranteed for an extended period, see CAN I REFUSE TO APPLY FOR A JOB? and CREATIVE JOB SEARCH. WHAT IF I'M FORCED INTO WORK?

EMPLOYMENT ON TRIAL - After being unemployed for 13 weeks, you can take a full time job (over 16 hours) and leave after 4 and before 12 calendar weeks - THEY CAN'T TREAT YOU AS VOLUNTARILY LEAVING WORK!

Otherwise - well, they've made you into a wage slave, we recommend you pay them back any way you can. Organise, agitate, disrupt - its still a Class War!

[indierich06]

So what's this then, a guide to milking the most of JSA and dodging any chance of getting a job?

"If you don't want the job make sure your application is nondescript or contains information about your work history or references that will put the employer off interviewing or hiring you"

What a ****ing joke. People should be grateful for any job they can get in this climate. Any work is better than no work, when I was on JSA I would have taken anything. Luckily I managed to get a pub job and stayed for a couple of years, but I would've taken anything to get me out of that shithole.

[MooseBreath]

Must be a joke. Everyone knows unemployed people all try their hardest to get back into work.

[Rocket-Ron]

So what's this then, a guide to milking the most of JSA and dodging any chance of getting a job?

"If you don't want the job make sure your application is nondescript or contains information about your work history or references that will put the employer off interviewing or hiring you"

What a ****ing joke. People should be grateful for any job they can get in this climate. Any work is better than no work, when I was on JSA I would have taken anything. Luckily I managed to get a pub job and stayed for a couple of years, but I would've taken anything to get me out of that shithole.

I sometimes think that Nightguard puts so much effort into finding ways to keep his JSA that it would be far easier for him just to (dare I say) WORK...

[Finnegan]

I sometimes think that Nightguard puts so much effort into finding ways to keep his JSA that it would be far easier for him just to (dare I say) WORK...

Not a massive Nightguard fan, think his brand of kooky is a bit over my head and I generally skim read over a lot of his daily updates.

But pretty sure he said he'd been working all his life until the last couple of years.

With the greatest respect, finding a job at his age is near enough impossible if you have a tidy education and a strong CV but given Ken's had a career predominantly in one trade that he can no longer get work in it's not like a whole heap of employers are going to be queuing up for someone in need of training up when he's closer to retirement than full competency in a new role.

People should cut him a bit of slack on here, he's just an easy target. Too easy for the like of Moose who can do their trolling elsewhere and a bit disappointed that TPH felt the need to wade in lately.

Being young and unemployed right now is hard. Being old and unemployed right now? **** me, I'd be off to Switzerland (chin up, though, Ken.)

[Rocket-Ron]

Not a massive Nightguard fan, think his brand of kooky is a bit over my head and I generally skim read over a lot of his daily updates.

But pretty sure he said he'd been working all his life until the last couple of years.

With the greatest respect, finding a job at his age is near enough impossible if you have a tidy education and a strong CV but given Ken's had a career predominantly in one trade that he can no longer get work in it's not like a whole heap of employers are going to be queuing up for someone in need of training up when he's closer to retirement than full competency in a new role.

People should cut him a bit of slack on here, he's just an easy target. Too easy for the like of Moose who can do their trolling elsewhere and a bit disappointed that TPH felt the need to wade in lately.

Being young and unemployed right now is hard. Being old and unemployed right now? **** me, I'd be off to Switzerland (chin up, though, Ken.)

It was more about a comment he made the other day (can't find it) where he said that he had got some work 10 hours a week only to keep the offices off his back and stop them forcing him to look for other employment.

my comment was supposed to be more tongue in cheeck, moreso than it came across.

I feel sorry for anyone struggeling to find work. And I hope it never happens to me.

[The People's Hero]

I hardly thought I waded in. I thought I made some fairly decent points. None of this is aimed personally at Nightguard, who I can tell is frustrated with the system. It is both the system and the attitude of SOME claimants which is the problem.

It is also fuelled by a very frustrating experience trying to give some young jobseekers opportunities recently (all shunned) and the fact that I recently had to put up with someone in a similar position to me, but choosing not to work, gloating about their benefits and the amount of disposable income they have.

I have no axe to grind personally against any individual. If the system was improved, individuals would still have a choice to make, but it would just be a fairer one all round. I'm not in a position to improve the system though and not sure I really know how if I was in that position.

[FantasticMrFuchs]

There is work out there and some people like Ken turn it down because it doesn't suit them, I am referring to the security job you were offered a while back and chose to turn it down.

To be fair if you spent half as much time looking for work as you did writing poetry and posting on FT I am sure you would have found a job before now

[The People's Hero]

Not a massive Nightguard fan, think his brand of kooky is a bit over my head and I generally skim read over a lot of his daily updates.

But pretty sure he said he'd been working all his life until the last couple of years.

With the greatest respect, finding a job at his age is near enough impossible if you have a tidy education and a strong CV but given Ken's had a career predominantly in one trade that he can no longer get work in it's not like a whole heap of employers are going to be queuing up for someone in need of training up when he's closer to retirement than full competency in a new role.

People should cut him a bit of slack on here, he's just an easy target. Too easy for the like of Moose who can do their trolling elsewhere and a bit disappointed that TPH felt the need to wade in lately.

Being young and unemployed right now is hard. Being old and unemployed right now? **** me, I'd be off to Switzerland (chin up, though, Ken.)

I also agree with this. I do feel sympathy for Ken, particularly as you say as he's likely to be overlooked in some cases simply on the basis of his age.

[Zingari]

Just do what you have to do to get the best out of the system for yourself Nighty . Take the option that makes you better off . I’m fairly sure you’ve earned it

Fook what anyone else thinks. They ain’t walking in your shoes .

[indierich06]

I've got absolutely no problem with people being on the dole who are actively trying to better themselves and get off it. I've been there myself - it was bloody horrible and I absolutely hated every second of it, I've got nothing but sympathy for people in their situation and I'll back up anyone who's trying their hardest to get back to work. But people who are on the dole and are actively looking to exploit and stay on the dole as long as they possibly can to avoid working can get ****ed IMO. Benefits are there to help you while you can't help yourself, and rightly so. However, they're not there to be exploited because you can't be arsed to work, or a certain job doesn't suit you.

I worked several shit jobs to avoid signing on and I hated some of them almost as much as I hated signing on, but given the option I would always work rather than sit on my backside and take a paltry handout from the government. It's no kind of life.

[Soar Fox]

Must be a joke. Everyone knows unemployed people all try their hardest to get back into work.

I mentioned in a different thread about the company I work for looking for 7 new starters and if anyone wanted details PM me. I had one person message me and ask details.

I'm sure I've saw a few more people on here saying they are unemployed and looking to get back into work.

[Guest MattP]

Sympathy does slightly wane a bit when you see them being caught in Weatherspoons on Monday morning.

[Rincewind]

There is work out there and some people like Ken turn it down because it doesn't suit them, I am referring to the security job you were offered a while back and chose to turn it down.

To be fair if you spent half as much time looking for work as you did writing poetry and posting on FT I am sure you would have found a job before now

I was NOT offered a security job. The staff at the job centre printed it off and after looking at the werb site and job description in more detail mate a decision that I would not have the requirements to do the job to a level that would be required and because of my low physical strength slow reflexes and age would be putting myself and other members of staff in danger if confronted by an aggressive 16 stone youth. The job was at a young offenders prison and included escorting and body searching.

Unfortunately using common sense is not an excuse for refusing a job.

Re other comments. I have been searching for jobs for 18 months. I have applied for jobs which I considered within my range of capabilities and have gotten nowhere. The majority not even a reply. I cannot put down on my sheet 'looked on jobsite saw nothing suitable' which is often the case, so I have had to apply for jobs that are slightly out of my range. If the ads do not specify qualifications I do not have or be a driver I send off for an application form. More often than not I do not get a response but it is what is required so as not to get sanctioned. I do not like the situation but as someone said my age is against me as well as my physical ability. That does not affect me enough to be classed as disabled but it prevents me from doing heavy lifting.

As for the 10 hour part time. What I earn will cancel out my JSA. I will receive benefits as I will be on a low wage which many people are. I could do 30 plus and still receive them. Also I will be doing something I enjoy and am able to do well instead of going through the motions of turning up for 12 hour shifts and my heart not being in it.

The OP was not necessary my viewpoint. I found it amusing in a way that there has to be a guide to survive and illustrates how difficult it is for genuine jobseekers tio find work. The ones that do not want work already know the guideline and have probably been doing it for years.

[The People's Hero]

I found it amusing in a way that there has to be a guide to survive and illustrates how difficult it is for genuine jobseekers tio find work. The ones that do not want work already know the guideline and have probably been doing it for years.

You often make some astute observations, but I think you've misunderstood this piece.

The OP which you copied and pasted does not illustrate 'how difficult it is for genuine jobseekers tio find work'

It illustrates the attitude of the writer towards the system.

The system is a bit stupid, but you have to have a system.

[Rincewind]

I stand corrected. It was more the way it looked to me as I have been trying to survive for 18 month. Half of them badly until someone gave me similar advice. The person who told me even said staff at the jobcentre said pretty much the same. All they want to see is that the jobseeker has applied and made an effort to look for work. They know that those that lack abilities, qualifications and wrong gender or age groups stand the least chance but they are the easier targets to sanction which needs to be done for the figures and govt depts to say they caught x number of fraudsters this month and unemployment going down.

They will be happy if I start to claim pension credits as I will be off their books. In fact they have reminded me or asked a few times. I have about 14 visits before I am legible. If I got a full time job could I be certain that it would last 4 plus years?

With my last job I was expecting to have it until retirement at least. My ISA license ran out 2012 and two renewals would have taken me to2018 when I would be about 68. I will be 62 this year. Is that too young to pack in? The best work I can hope for now is part time so I may as well do something that I enjoy in my twilight years.

[FantasticMrFuchs]

Like I said IF you wanted work you would find it. What are you now 52-53? Well you have got at least 10 more working years in front of you. Anyone who states there is no jobs out there are just bone idle.

[Rincewind]

I am 61 and I don't think you are so you would not know what it is like.

[Charl91]

Like I said IF you wanted work you would find it. What are you now 52-53? Well you have got at least 10 more working years in front of you. Anyone who states there is no jobs out there are just bone idle.

You talk about bone idle, but you were too lazy to read his post above yours in which he states that he is 61

Edit: Beaten to it.

[Carl the Llama]

I'd rather be 61 and struggling by because of a flawed system than some uppity cvnt who thinks he knows it all and slags off 61 yr old jobless people over the internet.

[FantasticMrFuchs]

Anyone who turns down work gets no sympathy from me when they say there is no jobs when there is! Easy as that, this is not the first post Ken has put up moaning about being unemployed yet does little to nothing about it. I find ironic how you've been unemployed for 18 months yet still find money to pay for your internet....Yeah must be really struggling.

[FantasticMrFuchs]

I was NOT offered a security job. The staff at the job centre printed it off and after looking at the werb site and job description in more detail mate a decision that I would not have the requirements to do the job to a level that would be required and because of my low physical strength slow reflexes and age would be putting myself and other members of staff in danger if confronted by an aggressive 16 stone youth. The job was at a young offenders prison and included escorting and body searching. - Where they would be handcuffed and surrounded by security/prison gaurds?

Unfortunately using common sense is not an excuse for refusing a job - you could still have applied for it though?

Re other comments. I have been searching for jobs for 18 months. I have applied for jobs which I considered within my range of capabilities and have gotten nowhere. The majority not even a reply. I cannot put down on my sheet 'looked on jobsite saw nothing suitable' which is often the case, so I have had to apply for jobs that are slightly out of my range. If the ads do not specify qualifications I do not have or be a driver I send off for an application form. More often than not I do not get a response but it is what is required so as not to get sanctioned. I do not like the situation but as someone said my age is against me as well as my physical ability. That does not affect me enough to be classed as disabled but it prevents me from doing heavy lifting.

As for the 10 hour part time. What I earn will cancel out my JSA - I would rather be earning the same as my JSA than going to sign on.. I will receive benefits as I will be on a low wage which many people are. I could do 30 plus and still receive them. Also I will be doing something I enjoy and am able to do well instead of going through the motions of turning up for 12 hour shifts and my heart not being in it - A lot of people work in jobs where there heart is not in it but they still get off their backside and do it.

The OP was not necessary my viewpoint. I found it amusing in a way that there has to be a guide to survive and illustrates how difficult it is for genuine jobseekers tio find work. The ones that do not want work already know the guideline and have probably been doing it for years.

[Rincewind]

If I was 52/53 I would be more hopeful and I would probably be expected to do more work retraing programs. My advisor from Inworking called me earlier. Asked me how I was doing and If I had found work. I said no but I have a chance of part time. He just said 'Part time OK, I'll call you Feb 7th.' So much for a work adviser. From what he said before he wants me in full time. It may look better on his record if I am. He is also supposed to suggest jobs. Not one so far, just a monthly telephone call. No training programs. I have done them all my self. I have been helping with the magazine for a year so believe I have experience to be more pro-active. It is only part time but I will be expected to be available for more hours, possibly unpaid..

[Rincewind]

No they would not always be handcuffed. The job also required the occasional transporting. No driving license.

Yes I should have applied. My one mistake in not applying for a job I had no chance of getting giving the employer more wastepaper for his shredder. I think I am in a better position to know my capabilities physically than some white collar worker sitting behind a desk. But they only see job seekers as stats on paper. They do not see them in person so their decisions have to be based on what they know.

I have answered your other points.

[ADK]

I don't really see why you waste time moaning how hard it is to find work on here.