Captain... Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 hmm.... There was a story on the news over here several months ago of a man who was hosting a party at his farm and heard his daughter screaming in the barn.. went to see what the problem was to find one of the guests raping his daughter. She was 4 years old. He beat the man to death. An entirely understandable response if you ask me. He didn't face any charges. I do however see that as different to large scale vigilante mob rule... EDIT: here is the story. Didn't realize it was a year ago! http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/06/11/he-got-what-he-deserved-texas-dad-beats-his-daughters-molester-to-death/ That is not taking the law into your own hands, that is a completely understandable and justifiable response to being confronted by a scene like that, although I do think he would have had a much harder time getting off in the UK. There is a massive difference between seeing a man raping your child and losing it, compared to tooling up calling in the boys and going round to sort someone out after being told it has happened.
MPH Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 That is not taking the law into your own hands, that is a completely understandable and justifiable response to being confronted by a scene like that, although I do think he would have had a much harder time getting off in the UK. There is a massive difference between seeing a man raping your child and losing it, compared to tooling up calling in the boys and going round to sort someone out after being told it has happened. Actually he did take the law into his own hands... what he saw WAS a crime being committed to which he didnt call the cops and dealt out his own justice. But yes, an entirely understandable reaction
Rincewind Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 Have you seen Mississippi Burning? I think it's that one. A gang of men believe a black guy attacked a young girl so the strung him up KKK style. He was innocent.. With the one above it is understandable but did no one hear the bloke being beaten? Surely there would have been a lot of shouts, swearing and pleads for mercy from the victim. Is it not possible that others stood by egging him on then he took the sole blame thinking that he would be freed on a justifiable killing verdict. It was understandable reaction but a wrong one. Withe UK one they did not even check the validity of the allegation. Because the alledged attackers were thought to be Muslim the immediately assumed that they were guilty. If wives or children had been present and tried to intervene would they have beaten them as well? There were 40 of them and a lot of confusion so anyone near would be caught up in it.
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 No that's not Mississippi Burning Ken. That's a film about the murder of the civil rights murders. As for that story I don't think I know a single father who wouldn't do the same. Even if they did press charges good luck finding a jury in the land who would put him down.
Captain... Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 Actually he did take the law into his own hands... what he saw WAS a crime being committed to which he didnt call the cops and dealt out his own justice. But yes, an entirely understandable reaction But you could argue that it was not a concious decision, it was an act brought on by a moment of temporary insanity, so in the eyes of the law he would be innocent. As I said I think he would have a much harder time getting off in the UK, now if he saw a man raping his daughter and he happened to have a weapon in his hand, or grabbed a big stick and smacked him round the head with it and he died in an instant, then he would be fine. The idea of him beating a man to death does imply it was more than momentary reaction, it would really depend on how long he beating went on for and whether it became a concious attempt to murder someone.
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 You really think a jury in the land would put a man down who walked in on his 4 year old daughter being raped? Maybe if you pulled 12 people out of a socialist worker convention but no chance across the nation.
Rincewind Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 The jury might not but the judge could call a mistrial. Anyway the jury would be selected for their impartiality. If it was clear cut that the victim was guilty then like I said it is understandable but the jury still have to consider the facts Personally I would not want to be on a jury where my personal thoughts stopped me from making a decision based on the facts. Part of that reason is that the perpetrator may get off on a technicality if the defence or judge believes the jury is biased.
Captain... Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 You really think a jury in the land would put a man down who walked in on his 4 year old daughter being raped? Maybe if you pulled 12 people out of a socialist worker convention but no chance across the nation. It depends if they took the letter of the law into account (which they should do really) or let emotions affect their judgement. If he beat the man to death in a matter of seconds because he was freakishly strong, then he would have a defence of temporary insanity, but if he spent an hour pummelling the man's head with his bare fists, then it would be much harder to use that defence especially if he showed no remorse after and at the time showed a desire, albeit understandable, to kill him. In that case he would most likely be convicted of voluntary manslaughter, then it would be at the judge's discretion to sentence him, which for voluntary manslaughter there is no minimum sentence so he could let him go free without punishment, depending on the circumstances.
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 The one beaten to death. I don't really view him as a victim, the four year girl he raped I would. It depends if they took the letter of the law into account (which they should do really) or let emotions affect their judgement. If he beat the man to death in a matter of seconds because he was freakishly strong, then he would have a defence of temporary insanity, but if he spent an hour pummelling the man's head with his bare fists, then it would be much harder to use that defence especially if he showed no remorse after and at the time showed a desire, albeit understandable, to kill him. In that case he would most likely be convicted of voluntary manslaughter, then it would be at the judge's discretion to sentence him, which for voluntary manslaughter there is no minimum sentence so he could let him go free without punishment, depending on the circumstances. Fair. Suppose we saw a jury across the water a few weeks ago who followed the letter of the law to the hilt rather than judging on emotions. Hands of a judge scares me, you know what that lot are like.
MPH Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 But you could argue that it was not a concious decision, it was an act brought on by a moment of temporary insanity, so in the eyes of the law he would be innocent. As I said I think he would have a much harder time getting off in the UK, now if he saw a man raping his daughter and he happened to have a weapon in his hand, or grabbed a big stick and smacked him round the head with it and he died in an instant, then he would be fine. The idea of him beating a man to death does imply it was more than momentary reaction, it would really depend on how long he beating went on for and whether it became a concious attempt to murder someone. Temporary insanity or not, by the very definition of the phrase ' taking the law into your own hands' that is exactly what he did. My point was simple - your argument that it is never ok to take the law into your own hands was wrong. I'm not meaning to be rude, nut I don't think you knew the full implications and definition of the phrase you quoted and were probably only thinking of it in the context of mob rule.
Dr The Singh Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 Link doesn't work. http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/#!/articles/news/article/19587969 Does now. The last name doesn't look like Muslim. Why were they reported and refereed to as Muslim? They were just a group that took advantage of a girls weakness. The person who groomed and ran the ring was muslim, his alies were muslim,they became pimps, a few of the customers caught were hindus. On this case, one thing I must say the police and the muslim community and her parents should be ashamed of themselves. `knowing people involved, the police were informed weeks before the attack on the moghul darbar, the police were also told, other girls were also involved and were abused. The case was seen to be not taken seriously by the police as the aleged were still walking the streets and doing there deeds. It was well known that young girls were taken to moghul darbar and the flat below, yet people within that community allowed it to happen. The parents, after going through all legal avenues hit a brick wall, and turned to the Sikh community. They also tried to intervene and again the lawman did not take it serious enough, the feeling was the police did not want to 'offend' the muslim community, by tarring them with such a high media profile incident potentially. Some Sikhs felt there was no alternative but to give justice as they seem fit. The rest is history. Another thing that pissed me off was the TV reporting, they mentioned 'Sikh', 'sikh men', 'sikh girl' how many times, which I have no issue, but the yet they called the culprits 'men', why the disparity, call a spade a spade????? The newspapers go one step further to call the girl a Sikh and the men 'asian' This is a case where possible poor parenting, or bad relationships with a child, opened up the avenue for predators, who are seasoned in targetting vunerable children take advantage, and people aware of what's going on stand and watch. Those people from that muslim community, really have to clean there backyards, there type have the highest criminals, lowest education, and it is seems lowest moral standards. Is this a case of the 'what the right hand posseses........' in the quran taken to a new low. It's no surprise that over 90% the 'groomers' in the UK from south asian are muslim. and that % south asian in prison are muslim. These are not new traits, as already posted in this thread, 'shere punjab' as Sikh gang took to the streets and eradicated the scum in the 80's, and as shown with this case, if needed Sikhs will do it again.
GKD Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 Just playing devils advocate here the Singh. Believe me, I hope these guys go down for a very long time. But your stating an entire community to be responsible for a crime. You say they meaning the muslim community at large should be responsible for the actions of those who are guilty. Did the Sikh community ever enter into dialect with the "leaders" of the muslim/Hindu community that these guys are from? The reason I ask is because I genuinely do not know.
Dr The Singh Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 Just playing devils advocate here the Singh. Believe me, I hope these guys go down for a very long time. But your stating an entire community to be responsible for a crime. You say they meaning the muslim community at large should be responsible for the actions of those who are guilty. Did the Sikh community ever enter into dialect with the "leaders" of the muslim/Hindu community that these guys are from? The reason I ask is because I genuinely do not know. Not stating the obvious, no, not whole community, but there are enough of that community that no something is not right, or turn a blind eye. I do not know if there was dialect with 'Sikh' leaders' and 'Muslim leaders', but wtf is that going to achieve, I don't see Muslim leaders going around admitting there is a problem, infact the opposite. Making accusations against people, may or may not escalate issues. In hindsight people will say that this or that should be done, maybe it happened, maybe the police did, I don't think it would of made any difference, hollow words is not the answer. I think you need to stop going in semantics of my post, in the real world people will react to whatever circumstances are held infront of them, the fact that possible multiple girls were being abused, the first thought would be to put an end to it, rather then go into a long winded debate!!
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 The Police and authorities proved time and time again they would turn a blind eye to this rather than even risk appearing racist towards the Muslim community. What kind of sick society does that I have no idea but here it has happened. Fair play to the Sikhs, shame the white community didn't do the same otherwise we could have avoided all these other towns being ripe for grooming gangs after the original stuff in Rochdale. It's a terrible state of affairs when people have to turn to the EDL/BNP types to bring this into the media so something will actually be done about it because the white middle classes couldn't care less that children were being drugged and raped.
Father Ted Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/#!/articles/news/article/19587969 Those last two names are Hindu if I am Not mistaken. stating "muslim sex gangs" does not seem entirely fair with this particular trial. It's a sickening trap which regardless of background is carried out by perverts who deserve to be locked up. All 3 names are muslim names.
Dr The Singh Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 The Police and authorities proved time and time again they would turn a blind eye to this rather than even risk appearing racist towards the Muslim community. What kind of sick society does that I have no idea but here it has happened. Fair play to the Sikhs, shame the white community didn't do the same otherwise we could have avoided all these other towns being ripe for grooming gangs after the original stuff in Rochdale. It's a terrible state of affairs when people have to turn to the EDL/BNP types to bring this into the media so something will actually be done about it because the white middle classes couldn't care less that children were being drugged and raped. This is the tip of the iceberg, what are we unaware of, how many innocents in care go through such. It's a sad story, the fact that I am having to tell my kids of evils of groomers, and the consequences. As parents, i'm having to discuss the most disgusting of things. Worse still the Sikh community feels, it needs to raise awareness to the youth of today and have setup programmes, advice and helplines. WHat i'm trying to say, this is not a Sikh or Muslim issue, collectively we must act, not turn a blind eye to what happens to children I don't know about any of you, but what would you do if that were your child!
Guest MattP Posted 31 July 2013 Posted 31 July 2013 This is the tip of the iceberg, what are we unaware of, how many innocents in care go through such. It's a sad story, the fact that I am having to tell my kids of evils of groomers, and the consequences. As parents, i'm having to discuss the most disgusting of things. Worse still the Sikh community feels, it needs to raise awareness to the youth of today and have setup programmes, advice and helplines. WHat i'm trying to say, this is not a Sikh or Muslim issue, collectively we must act, not turn a blind eye to what happens to children I don't know about any of you, but what would you do if that were your child! Think everyone deep down knows it's the tip of the iceberg, been going on since the 80's and no one appears to have a thing to stop it until the last few years. Yeah I've already spoken to family members and made sure they know about grooming gangs and how they operate, I'm not having it happen to them. It's not the sort of thing you want to be telling an 11 year old, awful. I don't have children yet but if it was anyone close to me that had suffered this I'd be spending a long time in prison now I'd imagine.
Guest MattP Posted 1 August 2013 Posted 1 August 2013 Pleaded guilty. The trial of three men accused of sexually exploiting a 16-year-old schoolgirl was dramatically stopped today, for guilty pleas to be entered. Aabidali Mubarak Ali (39), Rakib Iacub (20) and Wajid Usman (22), admitted seven of the 22 counts they originally faced. Read more: http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Sex-exploitation-trial-men-plead-guilty/story-19601253-detail/story.html#ixzz2aj3K8kLy
I am Rod Hull Posted 2 August 2013 Posted 2 August 2013 Think everyone deep down knows it's the tip of the iceberg, been going on since the 80's and no one appears to have a thing to stop it until the last few years. 10 Coventry men charged http://news.sky.com/story/1123582/coventry-men-charged-with-sex-abuse-of-girls
Dr The Singh Posted 2 August 2013 Posted 2 August 2013 10 Coventry men charged http://news.sky.com/story/1123582/coventry-men-charged-with-sex-abuse-of-girls Yep, and guess which background?? And again, no mention of the 'm' word!! Are the people and the muslim people going to admit there is a problem????? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-23544913 Five in court over Coventry sexual exploitationFive men have appeared in court accused of sexually exploiting teenage girls in Coventry. Ricardo Hinkson, Amir Mahmood and Tasveer Hussain are charged with conspiracy to traffic within the UK for the purposes of sexual exploitation. Saleem Hussain is accused of sexual assault and Khezer Hussain is charged with rape. West Midlands Police allege the offences were committed in Coventry between May and September 2012. Hinkson, 23, of Telfer Road, Radford, Coventry, was remanded in custody at Coventry Magistrates' Court. Amir Mahmood, 27, of Blackwell Road, Tasveer Hussain, 30, of Canal Road, Foleshill, Saleem Hussain, 30, of Beake Avenue and 25-year-old Khezer Hussain, from Bordesley Green East, Stechford, Birmingham, were bailed. The five are due to appear at Coventry Crown Court on 7 November. Four people have already appeared in court in connection with the case. Brothers Gulfraz Banaris, 20, and Ifaraz Banaris, 25, both of Deedmore Road, Wood End, and Izthkhab Banaris, 24, of Eld Road, all in Coventry, are charged with conspiracy to traffic girls across the city. Gulfraz and Izthkhab Banaris are also accused of rape. Isa Iqbal, 21, of no fixed address, is accused of trafficking.
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