Foxblogger Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 I don't agree. How can unqualified persons reach authoritative conclusions since they neither have full possession of all of the facts and lack the intellectual ability to interpret them. It is also naive to expect LCFC to explain their reasons and motive to third parties (apart from the Football League) in view of the accounting implications. Fine to have a chat about it and raise concerns but it is just peering through the windows of the club. *In a newsroom run by unreachable* "So what stories are we looking at today?" "Looks like there might be a scandal in the NHS." "Are you a doctor? "No." "Well we can't report on that then can we..."
unreachable Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 *In a newsroom run by unreachable* "So what stories are we looking at today?" "Looks like there might be a scandal in the NHS." "Are you a doctor? "No." "Well we can't report on that then can we..." ...let's get an authoritative opinion from a doctor if we can....let's not just jump to an opinion because we have to have one
Jace Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 *In a newsroom run by unreachable* "So what stories are we looking at today?" "Looks like there might be a scandal in the NHS." "Are you a doctor? "No." "Well we can't report on that then can we..." Don't believe anything you hear about this horsemeat scandal on the news until you hear it from the horses mouth
Foxblogger Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 ...let's get an authoritative opinion from a doctor if we can....let's not just jump to an opinion because we have to have one If that's genuinely what you think happened tonight then that's very sad.
Tommy G Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 I don't agree. How can unqualified persons reach authoritative conclusions since they neither have full possession of all of the facts and lack the intellectual ability to interpret them. It is also naive to expect LCFC to explain their reasons and motive to third parties (apart from the Football League) in view of the accounting implications. Fine to have a chat about it and raise concerns but it is just peering through the windows of the club. Agree. I don't quite think Ian Stringer has an audit background to make any comment but as any Journo he will love the buzz he gets on reporting about losses as it will sell papers and make people tune in to the radio. Funny how they didn't comment on revenue growth in sponsorship? That was pretty much ignored. You need an accountant, probably an audit partner with experience in sports clubs accounts with a decent level of international tax experience (to comment and interpret whether the losses could be used to offset profits in the other companies around the group) the structure of lcfc now from an accounts perspective isn't straightforward anymore either. To get someone to comment and question a rival audit firm on the number prep and interpretation, accounting policies etc without the full audit file in front of them would be suicide hence it doesn't happen and instead we have Jason Bourne on twitter and nutters who phone in on a monday night to interpret it all.....
Tommy G Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 If that's genuinely what you think happened tonight then that's very sad. But where have you got the knowledge from to interpret everything you see in the audit report apart from the basics in comparison from year to year. Anyone can do that with a grade C in gcse maths?
Deucalion Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 Everyone has the right to comment and make sense of the information in front of them. However, people should be aware of what they don't know and where they lack expertise. One thing which always annoys me about fans is how they think playing park football or football manager gives them any kind of insight into professional football. It doesn't. It's fine to form opinions and discuss them but a little humility is needed to ensure one is not speaking out of one's posterior!
Foxes_Trust Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 Agree. I don't quite think Ian Stringer has an audit background to make any comment but as any Journo he will love the buzz he gets on reporting about losses as it will sell papers and make people tune in to the radio. Funny how they didn't comment on revenue growth in sponsorship? That was pretty much ignored. You need an accountant, probably an audit partner with experience in sports clubs accounts with a decent level of international tax experience (to comment and interpret whether the losses could be used to offset profits in the other companies around the group) the structure of lcfc now from an accounts perspective isn't straightforward anymore either. To get someone to comment and question a rival audit firm on the number prep and interpretation, accounting policies etc without the full audit file in front of them would be suicide hence it doesn't happen and instead we have Jason Bourne on twitter and nutters who phone in on a monday night to interpret it all..... The growth in sponsorship in overall terms is relatively small in comparison to the size of both the losses and the level of investment. We did discuss the fall in ticket sales which was also a smaller number, but being a fans phone in, the ticket pricing, contrasting price increases with overall sales achieved is of greater interest. In terms of commenting on figures, as stated on the phone in Foxblogger has examined every set of clubs accounts in the championship, so has some context to relate these latest figures against. Equally the Trust has been monitoring LCFC's accounts for 10 years (and for a number of years as a shareholder had a monthly financial statement from the club), while also via Supporters Direct (and relationships with fellow Trusts) gets a good insight into football finance across the divisions, so we do have the knowledge to comment. In terms of Financial Fair Play, Supporters Direct have had significant input, as the number one priority of all clubs should be long term financial stability, not the lunacy of recent years which has seen so many clubs going into administration.
birdwith2beaksandnofriends Posted 4 March 2013 Posted 4 March 2013 Foxes_Trust? You can hardly trust Foxes. Especially not with babies. Sickening. Fancy trusting a fox to babysit.
davieG Posted 14 March 2013 Author Posted 14 March 2013 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2293370/Financially-secure-Walsall-showing-Aston-Villa-Birmingham-Leicester-done.html
Deucalion Posted 14 March 2013 Posted 14 March 2013 http://www.dailymail...ester-done.html It is very misleading to say Leicester are in financial turmoil. There is no evidence of this. The extent of this journalist's research seems to have been looking at the headline figure. The levels of debt are alarming but the owners are acting as though they have it in hand. There are examples of owners doing the same thing as our owners and seeing their projects bear fruit, such as Manchester City and Chelsea. Until we have information otherwise, there is no point listening to hysterical articles like the above. I would love it if a club could reasonably expect success while balancing the books, however it is just not the case. While there are plenty of examples of clubs getting into difficulty due to owners running up debts, there are also examples of clubs hitting the skids from positions of seeming safety. Anyone remember Plymouth bigging themselves up at our expense a few years back? Where are they now? So much for balancing the books. It is a shame it is necessary to borrow such amounts to have a shot at success but we only have to look at the mediocrity and slow decline of most of the previous decade to surely be prepared to give our owners the benefit of the doubt and see if it works out in the long term.
Langston Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 I would love it if a club could reasonably expect success while balancing the books, however it is just not the case. Not in this country, at least.
volpeazzurro Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 I really don't pretend to understand the finer parts of business management compared to the more learned members on this site but do I really have to, are the basic tenets of this issue not really quite simple. When we read that the owners have 'pumped' yet another several millions pounds into the club, the fact is they haven't have they, they've just borrowed yet more against the club for which they will no doubt charge their 8% interest. My 12 year old son also spends imaginary millions buying players on his Xbox but of course no harm can come to anyone in reality (and he always seems to win something). It doesn't matter whether the debt is 50Mil or 100Mil, it's still owed and a day of reckoning will appear at some stage in the future. Yes, the owners may be getting good publicity for their 'real' business whilst they play Xbox manager (not very well imo) but at who's expense in the long run. IF we got promoted, it would take the whole proceeds in theory just to pay off what we owe. We know our current team are absolutely nowhere near good enough to survive there, so would our owners loan us yet another 100Mil to have another gamble of the dice in order to publicise further thier 'real' business, which of course is their main concern. We could all have a go at this if we had access to play money with no strings attached. I would bet that their other business is well managed and it is based on something they actually know about. Sousa, Erikson and numerous bad player buys have had money thrown at them hand over fist seemingly based on little knowledge of the subject matter or people they've chosen to advise them. I would bet that they are a little more circumspect when they actually spend their own money on their 'real business'. Year after year the Championship has proved that you don't have to spend millions and millions of pounds to get to the promised land and, if you have a shrewder chairman like Jeremy Peace at West Brom, after a period of Boing Boing, you can actually stay there for quite a while!
yorkie1999 Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 Not in this country, at least. What about West Brom? £1.5m profit, extending the stands for next season to get more in, £100 reduction in under 22 and £50 reduction in adult season tickets last year and 8th in the prem. That seems prettty successful.
davieG Posted 15 March 2013 Author Posted 15 March 2013 Some fans will take promotion at any cost be it millions of £££ of debt or shitty football. Portsmouth fans can look back and say we won the FA Cup but at what cost?. Owners and managers will inevitably move on, even more so these days than ever before and it will be the fans who are left to pick up the pieces. We need to remember nothing is guaranteed in football, splashing the cash, changing managers or recycling the team will not automatically bring the success many crave.
volpeazzurro Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 What about West Brom? £1.5m profit, extending the stands for next season to get more in, £100 reduction in under 22 and £50 reduction in adult season tickets last year and 8th in the prem. That seems prettty successful. My mates a WBA season ticket holder so I get the finer points of what goes on down there and they do, in my humble opinion, appear to have the right approach in most things (certainly ticket prices if you check them out are very good). Like any business, your not going to keep all of the punters happy all of the time because we're all different, have different views and like different things. Probably it's an age thing but I don't get dazzled by the bright lights of our current owners. I don't have any problem at all with them running it as a business venture in essence and agree that in all walks of life you have to borrow money at times except they're not, the club is and in huge huge amounts to boot. It's not that I'm not an ambtious person by nature either, I'd like us to get into the Premiership as much as the next person but... the club is a legacy in a way, just as I first went down with my Dad, my son now goes down with me now (though I can't after many years of having them afford a season ticket now, a different issue that though) and I'd like to think there will be a club there for his kids in the future and they get to see his 'brick in the wall' that their Grandad put there. All a bit emotive I suppose but, if you except that the chances are that you'll never be a Man Utd or Chelsea, there's still a great deal to aim for with a club like ours and get some great memories on the way like I have...if some outside forces doesn't sell it down the drain for us in the meantime that is!
davieG Posted 15 March 2013 Author Posted 15 March 2013 My mates a WBA season ticket holder so I get the finer points of what goes on down there and they do, in my humble opinion, appear to have the right approach in most things (certainly ticket prices if you check them out are very good). Like any business, your not going to keep all of the punters happy all of the time because we're all different, have different views and like different things. Probably it's an age thing but I don't get dazzled by the bright lights of our current owners. I don't have any problem at all with them running it as a business venture in essence and agree that in all walks of life you have to borrow money at times except they're not, the club is and in huge huge amounts to boot. It's not that I'm not an ambtious person by nature either, I'd like us to get into the Premiership as much as the next person but... the club is a legacy in a way, just as I first went down with my Dad, my son now goes down with me now (though I can't after many years of having them afford a season ticket now, a different issue that though) and I'd like to think there will be a club there for his kids in the future and they get to see his 'brick in the wall' that their Grandad put there. All a bit emotive I suppose but, if you except that the chances are that you'll never be a Man Utd or Chelsea, there's still a great deal to aim for with a club like ours and get some great memories on the way like I have...if some outside forces doesn't sell it down the drain for us in the meantime that is! Hi Vol, I'm interested in what you have to say but can you use a few paragraphs to make it easier to read - thanks.
unreachable Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 To what extent is it "real" money that's being pumped in? Can, for instance, a loss be offset against King Power Group profits earned in Thailand, Singapore and the British Virgin islands or wherever the owners' tax affairs are governed? If the owners lose money at Leicester and then pay less tax to the same extent in Thailand it sort of balances out or is that too simplistic?
Guest bss9401 Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 What does this mean? That Pearson is as much of a financial liability as Sven? Clearly no-one pays to go to games and we get nothing from the tv revenues.
Libertine Dream Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2293370/Financially-secure-Walsall-showing-Aston-Villa-Birmingham-Leicester-done.html They've seen some big red numbers and assumed that means financial turmoil. Poor article really
Swiss_tony Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 so big red numbers don't mean turmoil? if we were a public company they would've stopped trading our shares on the stock exchange because our EBITA number would be shocking in the 'real world'. why football clubs finances seem to be in this strange 'fact free bubble' where total debt is deemed a not very important number is beyond me.
yorkie1999 Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 so big red numbers don't mean turmoil? if we were a public company they would've stopped trading our shares on the stock exchange because our EBITA number would be shocking in the 'real world'. why football clubs finances seem to be in this strange 'fact free bubble' where total debt is deemed a not very important number is beyond me. But we're not a public company, we're privately owned. What i don't get is that we have owners who are basically loaning themselves the money, or am i getting this wrong. Surely if they own the club they can pump as much money of their own in as they like without any restrictions. Its their club because they bought it and its their money they are putting in. If they are borrowing money to put into the club surely its their business they are borrowing against. To me its like buying a company, putting loads of money into it and if it goes tits up, you're going to lose your money, but that's the gamble you make or you wouldn't bother in the first place.
MooseBreath Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 so big red numbers don't mean turmoil? if we were a public company they would've stopped trading our shares on the stock exchange because our EBITA number would be shocking in the 'real world'. why football clubs finances seem to be in this strange 'fact free bubble' where total debt is deemed a not very important number is beyond me. Total debt isn't very important when it comes to EBITA, that's for sure. Total debt is not that important when both the debtor and the creditor are the exact same person either. Total debt isn't important at all when converted to equity.
Swiss_tony Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 right but when you loan a club money, you get interest plus the capital. when you turn it into equity the interest goes away. right now they are loaning us money, and charging us for the privelidge. if we ever get to the prem, they can pay off their loans (up to a point), but they earned all that interest off us whilst we were in debt, and you can be sure that if they didn't fund the loans form liquid cash, they added a point or two on the loan they took out to loan us the money. so debt is important inasmuch as paying the interest adds to it if you can't cover it all. confusing yes. point is, we ride the debt in the hope that eventually we make it to the promised land, when for them all will be rosy, but for us just means more cost, higher price tickets (not just home but away, how many people would go to the emirates???). and if don't get there, at some point the plug will be pulled. a good businessman does not throw bad money after good.
Wherethefoxhat? Posted 15 March 2013 Posted 15 March 2013 They speculate to accumulate Thats what businessmen do . There seems to be so many financial experts on here it's laughable . Don't worry ..be happy !
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